Spell Focus confusion

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TwoThe
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Spell Focus confusion

Post by TwoThe » Tue May 01, 2018 12:12 pm

I really like how the spell schools are tied to more than just a +2/+4 on the dice roll on this server, however I noticed that a few schools got mixed up.

Enchantment is any kind of bless/curse and mind alteration that you can apply (Bless, Doom, Dominate Person). Transmutation is any form of material alteration that you can make (Magic Weapon, Bull's Strength, Flesh to Stone). So unless you plan to convince your sword mentally that it is a +5 Holy Slayer, you better use Transmutation.

Transmutation focus should technically grant the bonus to enchanting items, while it right now grants the teleport spell. Teleport however is a Conjuration spell, so the Conjuration Focus should grant that.

I can see how this was probably made to balance those Feats, however it makes it a hard time explaining that in a role-playing situation. Like: try to explain how you transmuted someone from A to B (and why you cannot do that being a Conjuration expert), or how you mind-control your robe to have more armor.

TimeAdept
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Re: Spell Focus confusion

Post by TimeAdept » Tue May 01, 2018 4:35 pm

Agreed, it's odd, but the answer I got was this was deliberate design decision to balance the schools, so here we are.

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Baron Saturday
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Re: Spell Focus confusion

Post by Baron Saturday » Tue May 01, 2018 4:50 pm

Well. You're not wrong.

Basically it's a question of balance and grandfathered systems.

Conjuration is already the best focus to take, granting summons buffs and the -yoink command (the so-called "pocket WM"), and giving it MORE STUFF would just break it completely. Transmutation's buffs, on the other hand, are pretty recent (with the exception of golem creation) and were very welcome, as it was previously the most useless focus.

The enchantment system, I suspect, was created with the Dragon Age version of the word in mind (Enchantment? ENCHANTMENT!!!), though I can't say for sure, since it's been around way longer than I have. Removing it at this point would cause actual riots, regardless of what it was replaced with. I'm not sure what you could even replace it with! Maybe Sympathy and Antipathy (as per the spells of the same name on the D&D Wiki), used similarly to the -guard command to manage hostile aggro? But, again: Actual riots. Even if rebuilds were offered, it wouldn't be pretty.
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Iceborn
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Re: Spell Focus confusion

Post by Iceborn » Tue May 01, 2018 5:20 pm

There are five million things you could complain about the perception of magic schools in Arelith.
My biggest pet peeve:
That enchantment, a school that is based nearly entirely on the alteration of the mind, is the one school used for artificing.
It doesn't make any seeeeeeeeeeense aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaah
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Baron Saturday
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Re: Spell Focus confusion

Post by Baron Saturday » Tue May 01, 2018 5:59 pm

I guess that's where you've got to get creative with your RP.

Like.

What if the archipelago of Arelith is home to a series of powerful genii loci, and the enchantment basins are actually a means of communicating your desires with them? Powerful enchanters are better able to manipulate the genius loci of the basin.

Or something. It's kinda goofy, I know. But do you really wanna piss off the enchanters?
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Iceborn
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Re: Spell Focus confusion

Post by Iceborn » Tue May 01, 2018 6:11 pm

Oh, oh. I've played an enchanter, which is a character I was pretty fond of.
And I came up with all sorts of metaphysical reasonings that would explain the strangeness of Arelith.
But OOCly, it's a pet peeve nonetheless.
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TwoThe
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Re: Spell Focus confusion

Post by TwoThe » Wed May 02, 2018 8:57 am

I am not sure if it is possible to allow a one-time re-roll to compensate for the enchanting bonus (that is: set char to 1, return the XP, allow re-creation).

Actually balancing the schools should be easy. Just the riot would be the issue imo. ;)

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Mithreas
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Re: Spell Focus confusion

Post by Mithreas » Wed May 02, 2018 9:56 am

On FL, both Transmutation and Enchantment work when improving items (for physical and magical properties respectively).

But making Enchantment focuses work for the basin on Regulith was my call, and it was a difficult one. You're perfectly correct about the logic of the schools. But set against that is that they are called *enchantment* basins (and have been since before I joined Arelith!) and that enchantment has two different narrative traditions - enchanting weapons to improve them is as widespread in fantasy as fey enchanting the minds of those who stray into their woods.

In the end, I went with the "simpler" approach that was easier for new people to understand, on the assumption that people who understand transmutation vs enchantment are people who are more likely to dig into how the mechanics work and hence pick the focus that does what they want.
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Re: Spell Focus confusion

Post by Rebel4ever » Wed May 02, 2018 10:51 am

I am just wondering why every other school gets new toys and necromancy gets nothing.

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Baron Saturday
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Re: Spell Focus confusion

Post by Baron Saturday » Wed May 02, 2018 4:38 pm

Necromancy does get some decent buffs to summoned undead stats (http://wiki.arelith.com/Summoning_Chang ... ocus_Bonus), but you're right that it would be nice to give necromancers some form of epic spell activated through a chat command. Maybe the ability to raise a player corpse as an undead servant (which "decays" at, say, 1d4 levels/hour), or some form of fugue-related scrying? Using a player's corpse to summon their spirit for questioning would be pretty cool, though there's probably some horrific method of abusing this that I'm not thinking of.
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Xerah
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Re: Spell Focus confusion

Post by Xerah » Wed May 02, 2018 4:43 pm

I ended up having to take Enchantment for my artificer character. You just kind of work some RP magic to let it make sense. Just have to be open to BSing your way through.
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Opustus
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Re: Spell Focus confusion

Post by Opustus » Wed May 02, 2018 6:00 pm

Wouldn't it be fun to discuss the taxonomy and contradictions of spell schools in-character with all the other nerdy wizzies?
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Iceborn
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Re: Spell Focus confusion

Post by Iceborn » Wed May 02, 2018 6:40 pm

I did give it a try, but it always felt like trying to justify a weird design choice.

The lore doesn't always (most of the times) makes sense, specially when we start delving in magic, but the argument of "well, most people just go by what it sounds like" doesn't hold water to me.

The players are expected to do a minimal of reading to get the feel of the setting; you can go in blind and learn to play a drow as you go, and it won't be without mistakes, and the same should have applied to enchantment in the case of artificing. Maybe you thought peasantly that enchantment was the to-go school when it came to creating stuff, and instead you found out that there is more depth to magic than what the names imply.

I say, bring in the riots.
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TwoThe
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Re: Spell Focus confusion

Post by TwoThe » Thu May 03, 2018 5:01 pm

I say, bring in the riots.
If you give everyone a free respec with it, I guess most people would even welcome the change, just for the free respec.

The other question is: how can Conjuration, Enchantment and Transmutation Spell Focus be balanced if Transmutation gets the bonus to enchanting and Conjuration the teleport spell?

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Baron Saturday
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Re: Spell Focus confusion

Post by Baron Saturday » Thu May 03, 2018 6:17 pm

So if the abilities were simply migrated, here's what we'd have:

Transmutation
Zoo buff bonuses, basin bonuses, golem creation.

Conjuration
Summon bonuses, teleport, yoink, create portal.

Enchantment
Nada

This makes both transmutation and conjuration miles better than other schools, and none of the abilities on them are appropriate for enchantment, meaning something would need to be flat-out removed. Which I would hate to see, because there's a lot of cool stuff there.
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Re: Spell Focus confusion

Post by Morderon » Thu May 03, 2018 7:04 pm

There is this spell from All Things Magical (which is 2E)

The enchant an item spell it references is also enchantment.
7th Level Awakening (Wiz 7; Enchantment, Invocation) Range: Touch Components: V, S, M Duration: Permanent Casting Time: 2 rounds Area of Effect: One item Saving Throw: Special This spell is used to activate a touched magical item bearing multiple enchantments or exhibiting multiple functions. It is an alternative to the better-known enchant an item spell, but accomplishes less. To create a magical item with an awakening spell, several other spells must be used first, including eternal flame and usually wondrous web or holy vesting and various dweomerflow castings. Awakening can be used on a magical item that has been created with an enchant an item spell if additional powers are added to the item after its initial creation and enough use of the item has occurred to call upon all of the original powers at least once. When the spell is cast, the item must make a saving throw to determine if the awakening has been successful. The item’s base saving throw is the same as the caster’s saving throw vs. spell, modified as follows: a -1 penalty per being other than the spellcaster who cast spells on the item during preparation or contributed magics that were put into the item before the awakening attempt, a +1 bonus per meld and crown meld spell existing on the item, and a +1 bonus if both an eternal flame and a Veladar’s
vambrace, Nulathoe’s ninemen, or holy might spell were cast on the item before the awakening attempt. These bonuses are cumulative, but a roll of 1 is always a failure. The failure of an awakening attempt means either the item crumbles to worthless dust or explodes violently. Roll 1d6; a result of 1 or 2 means an explosion occurs similar to a fireball centered on the item that deals 1d6 points of damage per level of the awakening caster and in addition destroys the item utterly. A roll of 4-6 means that the item collapses into dust. A wind will rise from nowhere to carry this dust away, and even if some dust is somehow retained, it is magically inert and worthless. Success of the awakening attempt means the item is awakened instantly into operation. It functions perfectly, though if the creator has been careless or inattentive in his or her preparations, the item’s performance may involve some surprises. A successful awakening may be heralded by a flash of light from the item, but this effect is never a harmful discharge of wild magic or item powers. The material components for this spell are a single wizard spell scroll bearing at least as many spells as the item has functions, a gem of any sort of not less than 2,500 gp value each for each item function, and a living plant that has been altered by magic. Some sages believe an awakening is more likely to succeed (an additional +l bonus to the item’s saving throw at the DM’s discretion) if a random dweomer-bearing component is also present in the spellcasting components.

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Baron Saturday
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Re: Spell Focus confusion

Post by Baron Saturday » Thu May 03, 2018 11:41 pm

Let's go with that. That seems much, much simpler than reshuffling a bunch of custom abilities and pissing off half the server.
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Mithreas
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Re: Spell Focus confusion

Post by Mithreas » Fri May 04, 2018 4:27 am

Rebel4ever wrote:
Wed May 02, 2018 10:51 am
I am just wondering why every other school gets new toys and necromancy gets nothing.
Well, you know how you get multiple summoned creatures? Originally that worked by taking spell focuses (at the time we were handing out the other spell focus buffs). That was the "unique trick" for necromancy.

Nowadays we key that off which spells you can cast, which encourages more focused necromancer builds, and necromancy focuses make your swarmed creatures stronger. Because your focus buffs multiple creatures at once, it's providing more direct benefit than conjuration, hence not having an epic spell as well.

Net is that I don't see necromancers as being in a bad place at all!
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Anomander
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Re: Spell Focus confusion

Post by Anomander » Fri May 04, 2018 6:22 am

Honestly even with enchant item the Enchant Foci are pretty disappointing. Being an enchanter without language knowledge (thus high int) is meh which makes it so so for Sorc unless you want to waste points on INT. Also you can improve items on the bench so while it is an edge, it's a marginal one. So yah, taking away this meager benefit would suck. I think if anything it could use another boost in some way.

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Re: Spell Focus confusion

Post by Cortex » Fri May 04, 2018 6:56 am

Necromancy is in a good spot right now, if anything, it's a few other schools that need adjusting.

Enchantment is also blocked by a clarity potion/mind blank/saves, it needs help, but it's not easy finding out how. Boosts to the existing spells won't fix the problem, clarity is already timed, mindblank can be breached, and saves can be lowered, but the school still sucks Snuggybear for PvE/PvP.
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Iceborn
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Re: Spell Focus confusion

Post by Iceborn » Fri May 04, 2018 7:04 am

Regarding necromancy, mechanically it's just fine.
It'd be nice to give it some tool or cookie for RP.
I don't play a necromancer. Don't look at me for ideas.
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Re: Spell Focus confusion

Post by Anomander » Fri May 04, 2018 7:21 am

Cortex wrote:
Fri May 04, 2018 6:56 am
Necromancy is in a good spot right now, if anything, it's a few other schools that need adjusting.

Enchantment is also blocked by a clarity potion/mind blank/saves, it needs help, but it's not easy finding out how. Boosts to the existing spells won't fix the problem, clarity is already timed, mindblank can be breached, and saves can be lowered, but the school still sucks Snuggybear for PvE/PvP.
Yeeeep my thoughts exactly on enchantment. It is tricky to solve. Making the mind blanks breach-able would be an interesting concept to explore. Or some RP tool or combat utility epic ability. It could be something like an epic console spell that prevents anyone from targeting you with offensive actions (like a Greater Sanctuary esque thing) for x time with no save, broken if you take hostile action.

Could also explore giving bonus to sorc on enchant spell DC's (due to Charisma vs. Int being spellcasting ability and them being more persuasive) which would balance out utility wizard gets from the foci w/ enchanting and language knowledge vs. sorc with low int.

Not sure but I'm sure there would be some delicate ways to make it a more fun and rewarding school to focus in. It has a lot of potential!

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Re: Spell Focus confusion

Post by Rebel4ever » Fri May 04, 2018 8:31 am

Enchantment is also blocked by a clarity potion/mind blank/saves, it needs help, but it's not easy finding out how.
You don't have dispels? The same can be said for any one school. Greater dispelling and Mords should be able to get rid of any clairty buffs assuming you don't get it off before he pots and you only cast from one school. I am will bet 95% of the rogues/warriors would have no chance of making the will saves against high level casters. Lets turn the tables a guy is fighting an enchanter and he doesn't have a potion of clarity what happens?

Necromancy - Negative Energy protection (potion) /Deathward / Saves
Conjuration - Word of Faith/Banish/Dismissal
Evocation - Spell Mantle/ Elemental shields/ Evasion (improved)...while Evocation is harder to shut down completely it has much more soft counters.

viewtopic.php?f=13&t=17735&p=148290&hil ... ol#p148290

It seems most players find Enchantment/Conjuration/Illusion strong and necromancy weak. Not to mention enchantment is extremely useful as basically a money making profession. The fact enchanters have a almost complete monopoly on enchanting items is strong enough to be worth the feats. If you look at the players opinions on the thread above they don't seem to think Necromancy powerful at all. Abjuration is probably the strongest PVP wise.

The game is 85% PVE and can anyone say enchantment is not awesome for that?

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Cortex
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Re: Spell Focus confusion

Post by Cortex » Fri May 04, 2018 9:16 am

Dispels aren't reliable, and enchantment suffers the most, using your own examples to compare.

Enchantment: Screwed by saves OR mind immunity
Necromancy: Takes NEP to protect against a STR drain, and a separate ward for death spells if they've lackluster saves. Also has summons.
Conjuration: -yoink takes -ward to be countered, and WoF/ban/dis won't easily get rid of an EDK. Then there's a plethora of cloud spells and grease which are just painful to deal with.
Evocation: odd you mention spell mantle because spell mantle works for everything, it's also amazing against barbarians, less so vs high saves people or evasion.

For PvE, enchantment is just incredibly niche, you can essentially solo the server (bar the big epic bosses) without any spell focus, just using summons (conjuration/necromancy focuses make it even easier).

Enchantment is the only one that can be entirely countered by a potion, and then it has no more purpose until that potion wears off (which it might be too late by then). It's a weird and annoying situation, given a lot of epic gearing revolves entirely having enchantment, it's essentially gimping the character in order to make epic gear. No other craft has that.

As for what "most" people think, it's fallacious to assume that because some people think something, that it is correct.
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Re: Spell Focus confusion

Post by Rebel4ever » Fri May 04, 2018 4:26 pm

Enchantment: Screwed by saves OR mind immunity
Really? saves? Enchantment targets will saves more often than not and those on any dex or strength based classes are low as hell. However you could never get the first cast? they always mind immunity first? ever asked yourself why that might be? could it be if you hit that spell you automatically win seeing they won't be able to fight back for like 30 rounds?

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