Bards and their Sucky Greatness [A massive rant about bards]

[Cortex]

A battle bard with 16-20 bard levels is one of the best builds and isn't hard to level (unless you solo, but that's not exclusive to battlebards, most melee suck Snuggybear at it), they're solid tanks and offer good utility when needed, especially since they've UMD before the infamous epic dip.

[Iceborn]

Edit: Since you decided to mention me specifically Ice - That personally looks like plenty of room to personalize your character to me. You can pick up a smattering of search and lore if going for a more professional adventurer/explorer feel, pickpocket if you wanna be a street urchin or criminal underworld bard (Invis spells will help here). Or you could go the route Jinxy and I did on Nathaniel and Valentina and work to get minions who have higher skills than you do when you need them, and work to enable them via buffs (Bard song) or just being a disteaction for them.

Tangent aside: You've got space to personalize your character there anyways, and I've always found roleplay to be a better way to personalize the exact details than 15 ranks in pickpocket you'll use a handful of times.

I sympathize with the attribute apread being painful (I've been trying to max a dex paladin work for the past few days) but that's not unique to bards. Pretty much any class that cares about more than (Attack Stat) and constitution has the same problem.

Sorry about that. I just derped and wrote the first name that came to the mind when I was writing that line, and forgot to check who was the one actually writing <.<!

And indeed; Arelith is not a single player game and we are supposed to complement each other in skills, but if you see the spread I wrote above, you don't have much way to take your own route without sacrificing the skills that are somewhat mandatory to the core of your character.

And if I remember correctly, paladins had a small buff to help them with their stat spread. Not terribly big, but it was still something to ease it up a little.

[Hunter548]

Sorry about that. I just derped and wrote the first name that came to the mind when I was writing that line, and forgot to check who was the one actually writing <.<!

And indeed; Arelith is not a single player game and we are supposed to complement each other in skills, but if you see the spread I wrote above, you don't have much way to take your own route without sacrificing the skills that are somewhat mandatory to the core of your character.

And if I remember correctly, paladins had a small buff to help them with their stat spread. Not terribly big, but it was still something to ease it up a little.

Well, again -- what exactly are you trying to personalize your bard For? Are you a warrior-poet, a leader of men in battle and a scholar/historian? Take some lore and some concentration. A mafioso, leader of the criminal underworld? Probably a smattering of the social skills. A harper spy? Pickpocket. Etc etc etc. If you're looking to max all those skills you listed, it sounds like you really wish you were playing a different class.


And yeah, sure, paladin got some help -- because paladin was the single most MAD class in the game if you actually wanted to cast their spells. You wanted a solid score in literally everything than dex -- Five stats, to monk/bg/sorc/cleric/spellsword/whatever's 3-4 (Which incidentally were the classes I was referring to). Your attribute spread is also being artificially constrained by taking 10 wis, presumably also for personalization reasons.

[Peppermint]

I dunno. The above spread looks a little weird to me.

You don't need 10 wisdom. I might be inclined to take it as an RP thing, but mechanically, it's worthless.

You don't need 16 charisma. More optimal to start 14 and gift it to 16, in my opinion. This frees up four points.

You don't need 14 intelligence. You can get by with 13, if you really want to customize.

You have points you can move around. Sure, if you want to be optimal, they should go into strength. But this is the exact same case as any other class--there's generally one optimal choice, and a series of viable (albeit not optimal) alternatives if you want to do something a little less cookie cutter.

It sounds like you just want to play a different class.

[Iceborn]

@Hunter.
Certainly I'm not asking for all of the above - let alone HALF, but let's say I want to take both Lore and Search to play an investigator, or Listen and Lore to play some kind of agent, or even, Hide/MS to play a stealth bard. That is already pushing the skillpoints off the budget of what I can afford with a non-human, 14 int bard.
I'm running extremely thin on what I can take. I'd need to shift my points a little, or outright send some skill investment to the meme dimension (remove it entirely).
Surely, I CAN drop discipline, tumble or perform, but I'd rather not shoot both my feet off.

Let me go by the number of skills again, just for reiteration:
At level 30, with 20 bard levels and, say, 5 fighter/5 harper scout, with a +2 int modifier, I'd have 24 at first level, + 76 with 19 bard levels, +20 master scout, +10 fighter. 130. +66 int score. 196. So I max:
33 discipline
163
33 Perform
130
33 Spellcraft
97
30 Tumble
67
12 UMD
55
22 heal
33
So I get one skill that I can max here. I could just max Heal and take some Lore to just autotranslate, which is nice to have, or I could take some concentration, so if I'm the sort of bard that casts in combat, I can actually try to get a spell through without losing it to a failed check if I take damage. No Ride, Persuade, MS/Hide, PP, Appraise, Spot/Listen, or Taunt. It's hardly a matter of having a cake and eat it - but rather, not having any cake at all to begin with.

@Peppermint

I certainly don't need 10 wisdom, but the standard of a character should be 10 - not 8. 8 implies a deficit, and if we assume all bards are inherently lacking in common sense, something is wrong here.

I could do with 14 charisma and take the gift - that does net me a +1 con modifier, and other 2 points to wiggle around for my liking.

Yes, I can live with even less intelligence, but personally I like to add twists to my characters that differ them from a perfectly generic mold (strictly mechanically speaking). And I don't think I want to play a different class for that - I want to play a bard as a character that is proficient in combat, but also knowing of some trick or another that gives them an edge in specific situations that may come up during my playtime, or a quirk, or some RP tool that I can use, or an alternative skill.


EDIT: Let me add some thought of mine.
- The archetype of the bard is that of a jack of all trades, right? It's in their character description - they often serve artists of many trades, agents and spies.
+Okay, let's even ignore that and say that I just made that up and it doesn't matter.
-Bards do get 6 skillpoints per level in PnP.
+PnP is unbalanced and shouldn't be used as reference for Arelith (after all, the song is far weaker in PnP, right?).
-Rangers, assassins and rogues are all classes that share similarities with the bard, and they do get two to four more skills per level.
+So are the monks and harper scouts, and they get 4 ;)
++But those are classes that get a lot of abilities in their own right and their respective number of levels ;)))))

Honestly, this rant wasn't much about the skills at all at first. It was just a thing that I pointed casually like "would be nice", but the more I think about it, the less sense I see for bards to have 4 skillpoints instead of 6, specially considering Arelith's other specific changes.

[Disciprine Come From Within]

I'm going to stand on the sideline that repeats over and over again that Bard is actually a pretty good class, whether aiming for 15, 16, 20, 22, or even crazy 24. I've never seen a good reason to go over 24 levels but a 4 dip in a full BAB class helps, Bard Song, Curse Song, and Taunt make a bard either an amazing front line tank or an aggravating second that debuffs her opponents and does respectable damage. The class is flexible and even crazy things like going for Dex over Str can work if you dip Paladin/Blackguard for Divine Might.

If there is any real thing that I always found disappointing with a Bard, it's that their flexibility is almost too simple and I always wished there were other Bard Song avenues to use. Once you have Lasting Inspiration, you're Bardsong buffed all the time if you wanted to and you have way more song uses than you need between rests. It's an issue not about power, but about having something that starts off precious and ends up so abundant that it's surprisingly hard to run out.

[JediMindTrix]

I agree with a few things raised in this thread:

1) Bards are pretty good as is.
2) Greensteel objectively sucks.
3) Light armor ASF makes sense.
4) Bard song as a free action because you don't hold your sword in your mouth also makes sense.

[TimeAdept]

Bard and curse as a free action would be overpowered as hell because yuo could slam out bard/curse/might/shield all in one round while hasted.

[Cortex]

Bard and curse as a free action would be overpowered as hell because yuo could slam out bard/curse/might/shield all in one round while hasted.

This is correct. Part of what balances the bard powering up is the fact it's not instant, otherwise they'd be grossly oppressive.

[JediMindTrix]

Free action with cool down, activating one triggers the cool down for the other too?

[Iceborn]

While I don't like the multiclass into Paladin/Blackguard (my problem is with the 3 level dip in those classes. I said it before, I will say it time and time again), it's not going to happen.
The best ability that bards have is the Song; making THAT part of bards any stronger is not really a good idea by default. Giving it more options for customization, that is not wrong.

[flower]

I would prefer other classes getting attention.

For example the forever bugged out DD removed bugy stance and given passive bonuses for taking class levels in and similar.

DD is broken too long for how many dwarves / duergars are active.

Only then to drop effort on tweaking others. Once ALL have basic functions working.

[Rebel4ever]

4) Bard song as a free action because you don't hold your sword in your mouth also makes sense.

I disagree.
1) Its extremely powerful
2) There are loads of things you don't use your hands for that cost actions. A great example is taunt.
3) It plain doesn't need it.

[JediMindTrix]

Have you seen the taunt animation before?

[Dr. B]

4) Bard song as a free action because you don't hold your sword in your mouth also makes sense.

I disagree.
1) Its extremely powerful
2) There are loads of things you don't use your hands for that cost actions. A great example is taunt.
3) It plain doesn't need it.

Yeah, this would cross the line from overpowered (on certain builds) to just plain obscene. As is, you can already use it without breaking expertise, and the effect is very powerful.

The best ability that bards have is the Song; making THAT part of bards any stronger is not really a good idea by default. Giving it more options for customization, that is not wrong.

It doesn't NEED to be made stronger. It's already VERY STRONG. It's one of the best abilities in the entire game.

Your dissatisfaction with this class is cryptic to me, Iceborn.

[Seven Sons of Sin]

Biggest gripe about bards is dispel bait. Wish there were other ways to balance classes than being susceptible to spells. Would love to see return of half-casters, which is where a bard usually lies.

[Rebel4ever]

Have you seen the taunt animation before?

I use taunt ALOT. However it doesn't use my hands to insult someone...can i have a free action too? no because that would be overpowered.

[Iceborn]

It doesn't NEED to be made stronger. It's already VERY STRONG. It's one of the best abilities in the entire game.

Your dissatisfaction with this class is cryptic to me, Iceborn.

My only real problem is ASF. Bards are literally the only class in the game that has to contest with ASF; wizards and sorcerers have plenty of options for it, but for bards to succeed as melee combatants, they have to go STR and deal with ASF in one way or another.

I mentioned their HP; even as a con-maxed character, everybody in my level range seems to have nearly as much as twice HP.
I mentioned skillpoints; for a class which thematic is their versatility, they don't seem to get enough.
But I don't advocate for power. A properly built bard is a dangerous character, and a gamechanger in larger situations. I don't think they need more power; I think they need some qualify of life love to make them a little more flexible to build and play. A lot of other classes got that in Arelith.

[Dr. B]

I mentioned their HP; even as a con-maxed character, everybody in my level range seems to have nearly as much as twice HP.
I mentioned skillpoints; for a class which thematic is their versatility, they don't seem to get enough.
But I don't advocate for power. A properly built bard is a dangerous character, and a gamechanger in larger situations. I don't think they need more power;

These do not hurt the class. Given all the skills Bards have access to, a base of 4 per level is totally reasonable. No character should be good at everything, not even a Bard, because a character that is good at everything is broken.

The same goes for their HP. There other abilities make this a fair trade off.

I have no *particular* objection to allowing them to cast spells in light armor, but your whole argument is predicated on a series of claims according to which they are underpowered in other respects, and only if you build them eccentrically, at that. That having been said, still spell is a thing, and sinking a feat on it is not going to suddenly wreck your build, seeing as how both the standard 25/5 Bard/Ftr and the divine dips both take it anyway. The result would be that you can now play a single-class Bard, but I will admit that I have never understood the logic behind rewarding people for single-classing.

You might have actually courted much less resistance to your idea had you simply made this suggestion without arguing that Bards are otherwise sucky (your word).

[Hunter548]

It doesn't NEED to be made stronger. It's already VERY STRONG. It's one of the best abilities in the entire game.

Your dissatisfaction with this class is cryptic to me, Iceborn.

My only real problem is ASF. Bards are literally the only class in the game that has to contest with ASF; wizards and sorcerers have plenty of options for it, but for bards to succeed as melee combatants, they have to go STR and deal with ASF in one way or another.

I mentioned their HP; even as a con-maxed character, everybody in my level range seems to have nearly as much as twice HP.
I mentioned skillpoints; for a class which thematic is their versatility, they don't seem to get enough.
But I don't advocate for power. A properly built bard is a dangerous character, and a gamechanger in larger situations. I don't think they need more power; I think they need some qualify of life love to make them a little more flexible to build and play. A lot of other classes got that in Arelith.

1) If you increase their HP, you break them. HP (And some minor dispel-ability) is their one weakness.

2) Bard's flexibility comes from the fact they have some skills (But not as much as dedicated skill characters, IE rogues), some combat ability, and some spellcasting (Though they're semi-neutered here compared to PnP the way all casters are in NWN). Skills are not the end-all be-all of flexibility.

3) If you have ideas for quality of life/flavor additions that won't simultaneously catapult bards into the stratosphere, free free to suggest it. Everything you've mentioned thus far with the exception of no ASF in light armor would probably do that. Even then, you could just use spellthief armor -- It's non-ASF studded leather.

[Iceborn]

I mentioned their HP; even as a con-maxed character, everybody in my level range seems to have nearly as much as twice HP.
I mentioned skillpoints; for a class which thematic is their versatility, they don't seem to get enough.
But I don't advocate for power. A properly built bard is a dangerous character, and a gamechanger in larger situations. I don't think they need more power;

These do not hurt the class. Given all the skills Bards have access to, a base of 4 per level is totally reasonable. No character should be good at everything, not even a Bard, because a character that is good at everything is broken.

The same goes for their HP. There other abilities make this a fair trade off.

I have no *particular* objection to allowing them to cast spells in light armor, but your whole argument is predicated on a series of claims according to which they are underpowered in other respects, and only if you build them eccentrically, at that. That having been said, still spell is a thing, and sinking a feat on it is not going to suddenly wreck your build, seeing as how both the standard 25/5 Bard/Ftr and the divine dips both take it anyway. The result would be that you can now play a single-class Bard, but I will admit that I have never understood the logic behind rewarding people for single-classing.

You might have actually courted much less resistance to your idea had you simply made this suggestion without arguing that Bards are otherwise sucky (your word).

There's a reason I call it "sucky greatness" in the name of the thread
For that matter, bards are hardly good at everything. Their skill selection allows them to have options, but most of those options are commodities that you can't realistically afford having 4 skills/level. By simple comparison, this just doesn't add up to me.

It doesn't NEED to be made stronger. It's already VERY STRONG. It's one of the best abilities in the entire game.

Your dissatisfaction with this class is cryptic to me, Iceborn.

My only real problem is ASF. Bards are literally the only class in the game that has to contest with ASF; wizards and sorcerers have plenty of options for it, but for bards to succeed as melee combatants, they have to go STR and deal with ASF in one way or another.

I mentioned their HP; even as a con-maxed character, everybody in my level range seems to have nearly as much as twice HP.
I mentioned skillpoints; for a class which thematic is their versatility, they don't seem to get enough.
But I don't advocate for power. A properly built bard is a dangerous character, and a gamechanger in larger situations. I don't think they need more power; I think they need some qualify of life love to make them a little more flexible to build and play. A lot of other classes got that in Arelith.

1) If you increase their HP, you break them. HP (And some minor dispel-ability) is their one weakness.

2) Bard's flexibility comes from the fact they have some skills (But not as much as dedicated skill characters, IE rogues), some combat ability, and some spellcasting (Though they're semi-neutered here compared to PnP the way all casters are in NWN). Skills are not the end-all be-all of flexibility.

3) If you have ideas for quality of life/flavor additions that won't simultaneously catapult bards into the stratosphere, free free to suggest it. Everything you've mentioned thus far with the exception of no ASF in light armor would probably do that. Even then, you could just use spellthief armor -- It's non-ASF studded leather.

1) Break them? If it goes from 1d6 to 1d8, the standard level 20 bard gains... 40 hitpoints. [insert doge meme here].
2) I see your point, and then I look at rangers.
3) Sure.

In any case, I've said all I wanted to say some time ago, and argued all the points that I wanted to argue. Personally, I'd just be glad if they were to get the light armor ASF reduction, rather than A light armor with ASF reduction.

[Cortex]

40 is more than toughness can give.

[Hunter548]

1) Break them? If it goes from 1d6 to 1d8, the standard level 20 bard gains... 40 hitpoints. [insert doge meme here].
2) I see your point, and then I look at rangers.
3) Sure.

In any case, I've said all I wanted to say some time ago, and argued all the points that I wanted to argue. Personally, I'd just be glad if they were to get the light armor ASF reduction, rather than A light armor with ASF reduction.

1) It'd break them because of the concept of break-points. It'd take them from the 'nukable before they complete their buff-dance' range to 'difficult to nuke before they complete their buff-dance'. Once they complete said dance, they're more than tanky enough in AC terms to full heal. It's the same reason why, for example, why 70 poise is very important in original Dark Souls (It's the highest poise breakpoint), 200 damage is important in Overwatch (Because 200 damage oneshots most of the cast, regardless of healing), and probably a thousand of other examples in games I'm not as familiar with.

40 HP takes a bard from approx. 400-450 HP, to near 500 (Depending on gear, willingness of the player to actually use consumables, etc etc etc). 400-450ish HP is within the realm a mage can evo-combo you down if done correctly (Unless you have abj focuses). 500 is much less so. Scurvy outlined a lot of this earlier in the thread, but I suppose you missed that. Giving bards 40 extra hitpoints takes them from "Less HP than a WM but more AC", to "Same or more HP, while also having more AC". It's not nothing.

2) Yeah, let's look at rangers. Sure, they get two more skill points per level -- but their skill list isn't as valuable as a bard's. No tumble. No UMD. No disguise skills. No free lore vis a vis Bardic Knowledge. No disguise skills. Pretty much the only skills they have worth mentioning that bards don't is Spot (Irrelevant unless you really want to break disguises, since listen's better for spotting stealthers), Set Trap (Kind of eh unless you want to skirt close to the PvP rules' lines), Search (Kind of yawn-worthy unless you're obsessed with getting as much money from mobs as possible) and that's it. Rangers aren't exactly breaking the bank in terms of good skills.

Now, sure, rangers have a spellbook too, but if you look at it it's not even comparable to bards'. Camo/OwL are worthless if you don't have stealth skills. AoE slow spells are interesting tactically, but bards can take grease if they want too. The summons are all worthless by the level you get them, which is at least better than the healing that's never good at any level. Magic Fang/GMF are purely for the companion. Blade Thirst is actually nice. Invisibility Purge, Neutralize Poison, Freedom of Movement, Polymorph Self are all just as good off of the plentiful/easy to get consumables that cast those spells, and Mass Camo is pretty niche now that it doesn't stack. All in all, not nearly as useful as access to haste, II, full suites of stat buffs, see invis, etc etc.

Not to mention, y'know, rangers don't have the best party wide buff and debuff in the game, with the ability to have the buff up literally 24/7 and thus actually give themselves the same effective AB or better than a ranger.

[Rebel4ever]

If Bard needs anything its more spell slots. They currently have very few spells per rest....that would help them out a fair bit.

[Dr. B]

Here's what Bards need: a nerf to Harper Paragon.