Remove traps set by enemies.

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Jack Oat
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Remove traps set by enemies.

Post by Jack Oat » Wed Apr 25, 2018 2:16 pm

I understand the mindset when they were put in.
Mithreas (paraphrased) wrote:The intent is to provide players with a sense of pride and accomplishment for unlocking different heroes traversing various dungeons.
I get it.

But it isn't rewarding, it's annoying and honestly just detrimental to the overall experience and more frustrating than it's worth.

Don't have search? Take random damage periodically for no reason.

Think you interrupted that enemy who you watched put down a trap? Well no, they still put it down halfway through combat. Take some more damage.

Don't have evasion? You're especially screwed in most dungeons. Take some random damage.


Please remove this.

"You shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free."

Garrbear wrote:

quite bluntly we can't balance the server around people who don't play well

Irongron wrote:

My main takeaway from this is that Jack is apparently personable


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Astegard
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Re: Remove traps set by enemies.

Post by Astegard » Wed Apr 25, 2018 2:30 pm

Though I havent encountered enemies that put down traps, this sounds like a great feature to give skill based rogues more purpouse and give people a reason to include them in parties. (Also prevents meta knowing where all the traps are so just send in a summon)

(am a rogue player so biased, didnt know this existed sounds great extremely rewarding to skill focused rogues)

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Jack Oat
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Re: Remove traps set by enemies.

Post by Jack Oat » Wed Apr 25, 2018 2:47 pm

Astegard wrote:
Wed Apr 25, 2018 2:30 pm
Though I havent encountered enemies that put down traps, this sounds like a great feature to give skill based rogues more purpouse and give people a reason to include them in parties.
Sure, if the traps weren't right beside where the enemies you're fighting are. Except, they are. So there's no time to really send the rogue forward to disable the traps. Also, what about times when there isn't a Rogue around?

"You shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free."

Garrbear wrote:

quite bluntly we can't balance the server around people who don't play well

Irongron wrote:

My main takeaway from this is that Jack is apparently personable


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Queen Titania
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Re: Remove traps set by enemies.

Post by Queen Titania » Wed Apr 25, 2018 2:56 pm

From watching DM side, 95% of the time, the traps are actually immediately put down by the NPCs, or randomly spawned as soon as the encounter is triggered, not just suddenly in combat. I've never encountered an NPC putting it down once the combat starts.
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Cortex
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Re: Remove traps set by enemies.

Post by Cortex » Wed Apr 25, 2018 3:01 pm

DM Titania wrote:
Wed Apr 25, 2018 2:56 pm
From watching DM side, 95% of the time, the traps are actually immediately put down by the NPCs, or randomly spawned as soon as the encounter is triggered, not just suddenly in combat. I've never encountered an NPC putting it down once the combat starts.
That's still right under the spawn.

They don't add to the immersion and I've never seen anyone say anything about them other than "hey trap".
:)

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flower
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Re: Remove traps set by enemies.

Post by flower » Wed Apr 25, 2018 3:11 pm

These traps increase difficulty.

Why should difficulty go down, because it is hard or annyoing for someone? The danger of walking into a trap after all NPCs were killed is awsome and demands you to stay on alert constantly.

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Tathkar Eisgrim
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Re: Remove traps set by enemies.

Post by Tathkar Eisgrim » Wed Apr 25, 2018 3:12 pm

Perhaps a different approach could be deployed to represent the same and similar effects?

- Party approaches spawn. Certain enemy officer within dungeon is scripted to run to nearby lever and pull it -- reactivating all traps in dungeon.

- Party approaches spawn. Certain enemy officer is scripted to possess and use grenade-type weapons?

The current approach looks awkward because the size of the trap area when deployed is a large square. If a hak or beamdog change allowed various shapes / smaller size then things could be made more interesting / less awkward looking.

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Cortex
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Re: Remove traps set by enemies.

Post by Cortex » Wed Apr 25, 2018 3:13 pm

flower wrote:
Wed Apr 25, 2018 3:11 pm
These traps increase difficulty.

Why should difficulty go down, because it is hard or annyoing for someone? The danger of walking into a trap after all NPCs were killed is awsome and demands you to stay on alert constantly.
whatever shall i do when i trigger a trap with no immediate danger? use 1-2 heal kits because theres no immediate danger

They've only a semblance of danger if you trigger them in the beggining or middle of the spawn.
:)

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Miaou
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Re: Remove traps set by enemies.

Post by Miaou » Wed Apr 25, 2018 3:14 pm

From my own experiences, NPC rogues don't even need to see you. They instantly crouch and place the trap. I've walked by groups of NPCs while stealthed or invisible and they will either just place the trap right at their feet or crouch and wait to place it. The second makes them do the crouching animation and as soon as you appear the trap is instantly set. No way to interrupt.

And then other times you are just walking along and randomly take 40-60 damage from a trap left on the ground by them.

A rework of the script or it's removal would be nice.

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Cortex
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Re: Remove traps set by enemies.

Post by Cortex » Wed Apr 25, 2018 3:17 pm

Miaou wrote:
Wed Apr 25, 2018 3:14 pm
From my own experiences, NPC rogues don't even need to see you. They instantly crouch and place the trap. I've walked by groups of NPCs while stealthed or invisible and they will either just place the trap right at their feet or crouch and wait to place it. The second makes them do the crouching animation and as soon as you appear the trap is instantly set. No way to interrupt.

And then other times you are just walking along and randomly take 40-60 damage from a trap left on the ground by them.

A rework of the script or it's removal would be nice.
Traps being left behind is a particular nuisance too. They get overwhelming sometimes at the coast bandits.
:)

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Re: Remove traps set by enemies.

Post by JediMindTrix » Wed Apr 25, 2018 5:03 pm

On paper, it increases difficulty. In practice, it's just a nuisance that I rarely see acknowledged. Please remove.

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Re: Remove traps set by enemies.

Post by Queen Titania » Wed Apr 25, 2018 5:31 pm

JediMindTrix wrote:
Wed Apr 25, 2018 5:03 pm
On paper, it increases difficulty. In practice, it's just a nuisance that I rarely see acknowledged. Please remove.
FYI the last, struck out part is suggestion, which really should go in the unlocked suggestion thread, not here.
Tathkar Eisgrim wrote:
Wed Apr 25, 2018 3:12 pm
Perhaps a different approach could be deployed to represent the same and similar effects?

- Party approaches spawn. Certain enemy officer within dungeon is scripted to run to nearby lever and pull it -- reactivating all traps in dungeon.

- Party approaches spawn. Certain enemy officer is scripted to possess and use grenade-type weapons?

The current approach looks awkward because the size of the trap area when deployed is a large square. If a hak or beamdog change allowed various shapes / smaller size then things could be made more interesting / less awkward looking.
I like the idea of patrolling spawns that are put down upon PC's entering the area, rather than moving to a spawn point. These patrolling spawns then put X number of traps around their patrol route.
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Re: Remove traps set by enemies.

Post by Ebonstar » Wed Apr 25, 2018 5:33 pm

sounds like a perfect reason to hire a local rogue if traps bother the mighty fighters.

no but seriously, if mechanics didnt allow for skill point dumps, rogues would have a good place here, and noone would go dungeoneering without one.

so I see this as good cause to have a party with varied skills instead of mages and a summon
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Jack Oat
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Re: Remove traps set by enemies.

Post by Jack Oat » Wed Apr 25, 2018 6:06 pm

DM Titania wrote:
Wed Apr 25, 2018 5:31 pm
JediMindTrix wrote:
Wed Apr 25, 2018 5:03 pm
On paper, it increases difficulty. In practice, it's just a nuisance that I rarely see acknowledged. Please remove.
FYI the last, struck out part is suggestion, which really should go in the unlocked suggestion thread, not here.
No, this is absolutely the forum to discuss and offer FEEDBACK on things that happen in the module. The FEEDBACK he offered is that he thinks it should be removed. Same as mine.

"You shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free."

Garrbear wrote:

quite bluntly we can't balance the server around people who don't play well

Irongron wrote:

My main takeaway from this is that Jack is apparently personable


JediMindTrix
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Re: Remove traps set by enemies.

Post by JediMindTrix » Wed Apr 25, 2018 6:52 pm

DM Titania wrote:
Wed Apr 25, 2018 5:31 pm
FYI the last, struck out part is suggestion, which really should go in the unlocked suggestion thread, not here.
A) I could maybe see that if you took those two words out of the context of the preceding sentence.

B) Why on earth would I make a new thread just to say two words when there is a perfectly relevant one right here where we're all already on the subject. I'm not in the habit of creating clutter.

C)
DM Titania wrote:
Wed Apr 25, 2018 5:31 pm
I like the idea of patrolling spawns that are put down upon PC's entering the area, rather than moving to a spawn point. These patrolling spawns then put X number of traps around their patrol route.
This is as much a 'suggestion' as my feedback's addendum, worked into the same post you told me to not suggest stuff in. :|
Last edited by JediMindTrix on Wed Apr 25, 2018 7:00 pm, edited 4 times in total.

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Re: Remove traps set by enemies.

Post by flower » Wed Apr 25, 2018 6:54 pm

Cortex wrote:
Wed Apr 25, 2018 3:17 pm
Miaou wrote:
Wed Apr 25, 2018 3:14 pm
From my own experiences, NPC rogues don't even need to see you. They instantly crouch and place the trap. I've walked by groups of NPCs while stealthed or invisible and they will either just place the trap right at their feet or crouch and wait to place it. The second makes them do the crouching animation and as soon as you appear the trap is instantly set. No way to interrupt.

And then other times you are just walking along and randomly take 40-60 damage from a trap left on the ground by them.

A rework of the script or it's removal would be nice.
Traps being left behind is a particular nuisance too. They get overwhelming sometimes at the coast bandits.

Not true. You would be shocked by people who are so careless, dont bother with immediete healing, and wander around heavily wounded,

Then such strong up to deadly electro trap quickly teachs them lesson or two, knocking them down or even killing them. And they deserve that. Seriously, people should be punished for being careless, not having content adjusted because they are lazy, careless and when something is annoying to them call for nerf.

Edit: Or someone so careless not waiting for party being ready setting off area wide trap :D almost killing entire party. Yeah, watch what you do!

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Re: Remove traps set by enemies.

Post by Jack Oat » Thu Apr 26, 2018 12:46 am

flower wrote:
Wed Apr 25, 2018 6:54 pm
You would be shocked by people who are so careless, dont bother with immediete healing, and wander around heavily wounded,

Then such strong up to deadly electro trap quickly teachs them lesson or two, knocking them down or even killing them. And they deserve that. Seriously, people should be punished for being careless, not having content adjusted because they are lazy, careless and when something is annoying to them call for nerf.
Cortex is referring to when the enemy AI set something like 4-6 traps on top of each other (because AI don't pay attention to trap-setting rules) and you get zapped 6 times for 25 damage each. At level 9. And are instantly given a one-way ticket to Didneywarl. Hence, "overwhelming."

"You shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free."

Garrbear wrote:

quite bluntly we can't balance the server around people who don't play well

Irongron wrote:

My main takeaway from this is that Jack is apparently personable


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Mithreas
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Re: Remove traps set by enemies.

Post by Mithreas » Thu Apr 26, 2018 2:54 am

Interesting - each NPC is flagged to only set a single trap. How did you get 6 at once? 6 different NPCs who spawned together and all set a trap? Only one in 6 NPCs should leave a trap (determined randomly) so it's long odds of having an entire spawn all do it.

(Traps should be a random type as well, so getting 6 high damage traps in a row isn't high odds - you'd expect some to be tangle/sonic/whatever in the mix).
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Jack Oat
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Re: Remove traps set by enemies.

Post by Jack Oat » Thu Apr 26, 2018 3:32 am

Mithreas wrote:
Thu Apr 26, 2018 2:54 am
Interesting - each NPC is flagged to only set a single trap. How did you get 6 at once? 6 different NPCs who spawned together and all set a trap? Only one in 6 NPCs should leave a trap (determined randomly) so it's long odds of having an entire spawn all do it.

(Traps should be a random type as well, so getting 6 high damage traps in a row isn't high odds - you'd expect some to be tangle/sonic/whatever in the mix).
While it was, admittedly, a bit of hyperbole, six is the most I ever hit. A disgusting combination of Sonic/Lightning/Spike that left me stunned for a few rounds at near death, where the locals managed to easily finish me off.

If it is only supposed to be one in six, double-check the Coastal Pirates because that number doesn't sound right. I see one in every two or three setting down a trap.

"You shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free."

Garrbear wrote:

quite bluntly we can't balance the server around people who don't play well

Irongron wrote:

My main takeaway from this is that Jack is apparently personable


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Mithreas
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Re: Remove traps set by enemies.

Post by Mithreas » Thu Apr 26, 2018 4:09 am

Just reading the code... which should apply to all creatures [there are other reasons not to set a trap, like racial type, but this is the one relevant to the 1 in 6 stat].

Code: Select all

	// Don't set a trap if any of the following is true.
	if (!gsENGetIsEncounterCreature() ||
	    GetChallengeRating(OBJECT_SELF) < 8.0f ||
	    !(GetLevelByClass(CLASS_TYPE_RANGER) || GetLevelByClass(CLASS_TYPE_ROGUE)) ||
	    d6() < 6) 
	  nMatrix &= ~GS_AI_ACTION_TYPE_TRAP;
Now, RNG can be a bit fun in this engine, so a spurt of 3/6 in a row won't be uncommon, but over the course of an adventure it should even out. Would you mind doing a detailed count next time you're in there?
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Re: Remove traps set by enemies.

Post by Jack Oat » Thu Apr 26, 2018 5:34 am

Mithreas wrote:
Thu Apr 26, 2018 4:09 am
Just reading the code... which should apply to all creatures [there are other reasons not to set a trap, like racial type, but this is the one relevant to the 1 in 6 stat].

Code: Select all

	// Don't set a trap if any of the following is true.
	if (!gsENGetIsEncounterCreature() ||
	    GetChallengeRating(OBJECT_SELF) < 8.0f ||
	    !(GetLevelByClass(CLASS_TYPE_RANGER) || GetLevelByClass(CLASS_TYPE_ROGUE)) ||
	    d6() < 6) 
	  nMatrix &= ~GS_AI_ACTION_TYPE_TRAP;
Now, RNG can be a bit fun in this engine, so a spurt of 3/6 in a row won't be uncommon, but over the course of an adventure it should even out. Would you mind doing a detailed count next time you're in there?
Can do, but the counts aren't always going to be solid since it loads enemies when you enter the area, and they place traps when they load, right?

"You shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free."

Garrbear wrote:

quite bluntly we can't balance the server around people who don't play well

Irongron wrote:

My main takeaway from this is that Jack is apparently personable


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Mithreas
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Re: Remove traps set by enemies.

Post by Mithreas » Thu Apr 26, 2018 5:53 am

Yep... but I'm assuming you will hit the traps regardless. If you miss one or two (or there are one or two left from a previous run) then it shouldn't skew the numbers too badly. Certainly if we're seeing significantly more traps than expected, that should hopefully stand out.
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Jack Oat
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Re: Remove traps set by enemies.

Post by Jack Oat » Fri Jun 01, 2018 2:01 pm

Gonna bump this again. If nothing else, they're annoying and make an already cancerous grind fest even more tedious and frustrating.

I understand that part of the intent was to provide players with a unique experience each time. They don't do that, they just randomly inflict (often saveless) damage.

I understand that part of the intent was to provide Rogue players something to do with their party. They don't provide that until after the dust has settled from a fight, and even then you can usually just avoid them.

I understand that part of the intent was to "increase difficulty" as flower so eloquently put it. That isn't what they do. There's a difference between "increasing difficulty" by making enemies use more advanced tactics/spells, and "increasing difficulty" by providing cheapshot ways to injure the player. It's the same logic of having AI in shooters use cover/concealment/equipment (like grenades) more and having them just instantly headshot the player from across a map. Traps like this "increase difficulty" more like the latter.


Enemy-set traps, as they're implemented now, are a bad and lazy design decision with good intents and bad execution.

They shouldn't have been allowed to stay in the module this long.

"You shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free."

Garrbear wrote:

quite bluntly we can't balance the server around people who don't play well

Irongron wrote:

My main takeaway from this is that Jack is apparently personable


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Re: Remove traps set by enemies.

Post by Basementfellow » Fri Jun 01, 2018 2:36 pm

Agree 100%, remove randomly-generated traps. They add nothing to the game. They're not a "challenge", they're tedious and unfair to the player.

Just had a friend of mine drop instantly to one of these. It got set right under his feet while we were looting. No enemy in sight, and it definitely wasn't there before. It was like the grim reaper just whisked him away.

Granted, we had a good laugh about it, but we were laughing AT the server, not with it.

Keep random traps to doors and chests. Maybe hand-place a few more in some places, but don't just have them drop randomly from the sky to one-shot unsuspecting wizards.
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Re: Remove traps set by enemies.

Post by ForgottenBhaal » Fri Jun 01, 2018 2:58 pm

Personally I enjoy them. A good way to find free traps laying about in the world.

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