Player Stores

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Anomander
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Player Stores

Post by Anomander » Fri Apr 20, 2018 5:57 pm

Hello All,

A piece of feedback for the community to toss about. It's my opinion that PC owned stores are in a weird place right now.

Some stores are managed well and add value to the community. You can tell the owners spend time crafting or curating it with magical items that make it a unique experience as opposed to the NPC merchants.

Then on the other hand you have stores with 4-5 items in it that are, at best, cheap magical drops you'd find on Skaljard after a few hours of playing. It feels to me like some players are trying to just pawn off garbage and beat the price they'd get from NPC merchants. Now I'm not saying everyone needs to have to have a store fully stocked with high value items and make it their whole focus but there's an obvious difference between those who are actually trying to run a decent store vs. pawn off their random junk.

Now on one hand who cares, if you run a garbage store you're not going to make good money and vice versa (your competition thanks you). But given there is a very constrained # of stores available it prevents other PC's who would actually put effort into curating a useful store for the community from doing so.

I'm not sure what the solution is here and in the spirit of not having this be a "suggestion" I wanted to focus on the issue and facilitate a discussion rather than making recommendations. In either case I'm sure there are some easy solutions to this if the community/powers that be are in alignment that it's an issue detracting from the overall experience.

Cheers and thanks for reading!

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Twily
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Re: Player Stores

Post by Twily » Fri Apr 20, 2018 6:10 pm

I know Cordor's leadership has been cracking down heavily on this the past two terms.

Stores like the above you described have been having a compliance notice put in front of their stores, and if they don't fix their stock within a game month or two of getting the notice, they're contacted for eviction.

I feel like this is a rather solid solution to the issue, but it unfortunately does hold the very real potential to build animosity between players seeing as the one being evicted isn't likely to be happy about it.

Gods_Kill_People
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Re: Player Stores

Post by Gods_Kill_People » Fri Apr 20, 2018 6:18 pm

The thing is...everyone has a right to play a merchant...even if their shoddy at it, some are only just learning items of value, what they should put in the shop and what they shouldn't. Rather then complain in the forums about how we should find ways to remove them or such...offer IC solutions, offer to partner up with them to help give them better inventories while making a profit, or sell your items to them at a reduced cost so they can put it in. Small things that can be done ICly to make it more fun for both sides. Also....I'm rather against how hard Cordor is cracking down on this, especially with so many new players. Again, its not fun for players to be told to pack up and GTFO, no one wants to hear that after investing so much time in a shop.

Anomander
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Re: Player Stores

Post by Anomander » Fri Apr 20, 2018 6:31 pm

Gods_Kill_People wrote:
Fri Apr 20, 2018 6:18 pm
The thing is...everyone has a right to play a merchant...even if their shoddy at it, some are only just learning items of value, what they should put in the shop and what they shouldn't. Rather then complain in the forums about how we should find ways to remove them or such...offer IC solutions, offer to partner up with them to help give them better inventories while making a profit, or sell your items to them at a reduced cost so they can put it in. Small things that can be done ICly to make it more fun for both sides. Also....I'm rather against how hard Cordor is cracking down on this, especially with so many new players. Again, its not fun for players to be told to pack up and GTFO, no one wants to hear that after investing so much time in a shop.
I agree with a lot of what you're saying. And to be clear I'm not complaining or trying to come up with ways to "remove them" so much as highlighting something I've noticed and trying to start a discussion about the issue. We should absolutely provide support to new players to figure out the whole merchant gig.

I like the idea of an IC solution like offering support or partnering up. That said I also think the last bit of "it's not fun for players to be told to pack up and GTFO, no one wants to hear that after investing so much time in a shop," is kind of a misnomer. The folks I'm talking about have not invested time in their shop. And if they've received notice been given time to fix it while not doing anything, as long as that's actually happening, seems like a fair point to tell them to take a hike.

Pretty much every merchant ecosystem IRL has standards about maintaining a store front be it a strip mall or a retail front in a city. This is for obvious economic reasons that affect the entire community. It makes perfect sense a city would want successful, well maintained shops for tax, tourism and other reasons.

Gods_Kill_People
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Re: Player Stores

Post by Gods_Kill_People » Fri Apr 20, 2018 6:55 pm

The problem with that, is you cant see their shop 24/7, they can have wares that sell in a blink, Most of my mains shop looks like junk, what you dont see is he spends days crafting Arch-wizard staves and Staves of the Arcane Lotus....I can only craft 1 every 2-3 RL days...and when I put them in his shop....usually their gone in under 2 hours. Leaving his shop looking like it only sells junk. So what your not seeing...could be a lot of the issue too.

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BegoneThoth
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Re: Player Stores

Post by BegoneThoth » Fri Apr 20, 2018 8:27 pm

If you're a merchant of "cheap wares" such as, what I did, spell components, it was pretty ordinary to log in and see I sold 300 units in one day.

For many things demand vastly outstrips supply leading to a friendly sellers market.
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PinataPlethora
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Re: Player Stores

Post by PinataPlethora » Fri Apr 20, 2018 9:16 pm

BegoneThoth wrote:
Fri Apr 20, 2018 8:27 pm
If you're a merchant of "cheap wares" such as, what I did, spell components, it was pretty ordinary to log in and see I sold 300 units in one day.

For many things demand vastly outstrips supply leading to a friendly sellers market.
And Cordor, in my experience, has been very understanding of this. As long as you can explain why your shop is constantly empty, and how much tax money you're making them, everything's fine. They're mostly weeding out shops that are just held as status symbols, or by inactive characters.

liver and bones
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Re: Player Stores

Post by liver and bones » Fri Apr 20, 2018 11:34 pm

I share the sentiment of how so many shops are pawning off items with at best +1 zoo attributes.

Shops that tend to be empty I understand, especially if they make it known they sell hot commodities like spell components.

I do feel most surface settlements are too lenient unlike a year ago. However, should just see about pressuring either shop owners or the governments IC about this nonsense. Could lead to great roleplay.

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Blood on my Lips
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Re: Player Stores

Post by Blood on my Lips » Sat Apr 21, 2018 12:15 am

Shops that sell out fast because they sell items that other players need and want are great, both for the shop owner and the settlement they are in.

Shops that contain five items or are packed with garbage no one wants, can cause resentment in players that desperately want a shop and would stock it with useful wares.

If someone is really dead set on playing a merchant character they should make an effort to find out what goods are wanted and needed and then go around the isle looking to see what the market value of those items is, as any good merchant would.

You can also generate a lot RP and help new characters start out if you hire low level characters to craft things for you and resell the items you get from them at a higher price.

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MissEvelyn
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Re: Player Stores

Post by MissEvelyn » Sat Apr 21, 2018 12:23 am

I'm absolutely not a fan of dealing with In-Character issues out of character. This is something that should be resolved between characters.


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BegoneThoth
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Re: Player Stores

Post by BegoneThoth » Sat Apr 21, 2018 5:20 am

PinataPlethora wrote:
Fri Apr 20, 2018 9:16 pm
BegoneThoth wrote:
Fri Apr 20, 2018 8:27 pm
If you're a merchant of "cheap wares" such as, what I did, spell components, it was pretty ordinary to log in and see I sold 300 units in one day.

For many things demand vastly outstrips supply leading to a friendly sellers market.
And Cordor, in my experience, has been very understanding of this. As long as you can explain why your shop is constantly empty, and how much tax money you're making them, everything's fine. They're mostly weeding out shops that are just held as status symbols, or by inactive characters.
Yes, but it's all player run. Meaning it makes sense now, but who knows what's in store when the 'chaos party' or 'apathy party' get elected.
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TimeAdept
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Re: Player Stores

Post by TimeAdept » Sat Apr 21, 2018 8:46 am

Blood on my Lips wrote:
Sat Apr 21, 2018 12:15 am
Shops that sell out fast because they sell items that other players need and want are great, both for the shop owner and the settlement they are in.

Shops that contain five items or are packed with garbage no one wants, can cause resentment in players that desperately want a shop and would stock it with useful wares.

If someone is really dead set on playing a merchant character they should make an effort to find out what goods are wanted and needed and then go around the isle looking to see what the market value of those items is, as any good merchant would.

You can also generate a lot RP and help new characters start out if you hire low level characters to craft things for you and resell the items you get from them at a higher price.
outsourcing material making to people is the secret to mass market success, for real. Especially if you're making consumables.

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Ebonstar
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Re: Player Stores

Post by Ebonstar » Sat Apr 21, 2018 10:44 pm

Blood on my Lips wrote:
Sat Apr 21, 2018 12:15 am
Shops that sell out fast because they sell items that other players need and want are great, both for the shop owner and the settlement they are in.

Shops that contain five items or are packed with garbage no one wants, can cause resentment in players that desperately want a shop and would stock it with useful wares.

If someone is really dead set on playing a merchant character they should make an effort to find out what goods are wanted and needed and then go around the isle looking to see what the market value of those items is, as any good merchant would.

You can also generate a lot RP and help new characters start out if you hire low level characters to craft things for you and resell the items you get from them at a higher price.
and lets not forget the ones who have items but have priced them out of the all but epic bank account range
Yes I can sign

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Tathkar Eisgrim
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Re: Player Stores

Post by Tathkar Eisgrim » Sun Apr 22, 2018 9:18 pm

As a player involved in keeping an eye on player run shops in Cordor:

IC reactions and interractions of all kinds regarding shops are welcomed. If matters of trade do interest you please pursue them with the authorities of Cordor as you see fit, from whatever angle you deem appropriate.

OOC comment - All property on the server (property and shops and faction houses) are a privilege and a responsibility. They should be used and used well to entertain other players. A shop with a well thought out name, a shop run by several players (taking advantage of the faction system), a shop containing items with fun descriptions and unique colours -- all these enliven the server.

Shops are a roleplay tool. Please use them as such, beyond the economical benefits.

Kalafax
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Re: Player Stores

Post by Kalafax » Mon Apr 23, 2018 11:20 am

As a relatively new player to the server I would like to add a bit of input. I understand that real estate is limited, and there are people who are merchants and shop keepers by trade, I respect them and am intending to delve heavily into crafting and selling stuff myself eventually, but currently most of the shops are stocked with stuff ment for established players with deep pockets, if I see something 10k or above it's more then likely out of my consideration for immediate purchase.

What some people consider trash, such as basic magic items without multiple stats, and +1 and +2 stuff for low prices can be a boon for low level starting players who don't have alot of coin to spend. The peddler is nice for a while, but you start to realize that they don't give even half of what an item might be worth to another player at times, but there isn't simple way to peddle stuff to players who might be interested beyond a stall/shop.

I could be one of the people selling trash, I don't know, but I know when I put stuff up for sell it is stuff I wish players out up for sell at prices that are reasonable for someone in the 4 to 10 level range.

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The GrumpyCat
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Re: Player Stores

Post by The GrumpyCat » Mon Apr 23, 2018 1:52 pm

Seems to me that there are two issues being interwoven here, which it is important to seperate immedatly.

Shops that arn't being used well.
Shops that arn't being used.

The first of these is fairly subjective, and honestly is an issue that should be handled ICly in most circumstances. 'Not being used well' can cover shops that only sell cheep +1 equipment, and 'junk' items, to shops that turn little proffit but sell beautifully described baked goods, to shops that sell necromantic items and books called '101 ways to cook Babies.'
These are all issues that can be sold ICly. Whether it's ejecting the merchant from their stall for selling items that go against the moralities of the settlment in question, or by encouraging and assisting the merchant character in keeping their stock in good amount and quality.

The second issue - Shops That Arn't Being Used - is something that we as DMs should be handling, because it is unlikely that players Can ever handle this.
To be more specific, is a player is logging on once per week, for five minutes, to just 'touch' their shop and then logging - then yes, in the long term this is as much an abuse as those who do the same for their quarters, and I would encourage players to report their susspicins, so we can look into it.
One thing that players should not be doing, (and here I'm mostly referring to Settlment Leaders) is releasing such shops without giving the owner prior rp. And if someone truly is logging on to 'refresh' their shop, it's unlikely that the setlment leader/empowered person would be able to roleplay with them anyway.

So in short, whilst 'badly stocked' shops are entirely at the disgression of player base, if you do know of someone who seems to literally be logging on to touch property and nothing else (whether it be shop, quarter, or guildhouse) we would strongly encourage you to report it to us. Thank you.
This too shall pass.

(I now have a DM Discord (I hope) It's DM GrumpyCat#7185 but please keep in mind I'm very busy IRL so I can't promise how quick I'll get back to you.)

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