[Housing] Andunor/underdark in dire need of additional housing

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BegoneThoth
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Re: [Housing] Andunor/underdark in dire need of additional housing

Post by BegoneThoth » Sat Apr 21, 2018 3:44 pm

I don't see why guild halls need minimum occupancy at all.

If someone owns a guild hall and wants to use it as a mansion (such as the one in Cordor) then who cares? I ran the guild-hall in Cordor for several months and while we did a ton of RP there when it was the Church of Hoar, very few faction members wanted a room at all, despite constant RP/meetings/pvp etc that took place in there daily.

I don't see what 'rp' is generated by having some vacancy quota as a requisite for ownership.
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Re: [Housing] Andunor/underdark in dire need of additional housing

Post by WinkinBlinkin » Sat Apr 21, 2018 3:50 pm

BegoneThoth wrote:
Sat Apr 21, 2018 3:44 pm
I don't see why guild halls need minimum occupancy at all.

If someone owns a guild hall and wants to use it as a mansion (such as the one in Cordor) then who cares? I ran the guild-hall in Cordor for several months and while we did a ton of RP there when it was the Church of Hoar, very few faction members wanted a room at all, despite constant RP/meetings/pvp etc that took place in there daily.

I don't see what 'rp' is generated by having some vacancy quota as a requisite for ownership.
Who cares? All the many, many people who don't have a Guildhouse because someone is running it as their own personal mansion. Of course more rp would be generated by having more people in the same guildhouse, rather than empty rooms with chests in them. People don't want rooms in a Guildhouse, because they'd rather have their own Guildhouse that they are using as their own mansions as well. If they were at risk of losing their own, they would condense together. The same amount of rp would take place between the people from the same faction, but also, a completely new faction would be able to have -their- roleplay in the freed up Guildhouse.

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Re: [Housing] Andunor/underdark in dire need of additional housing

Post by Cortex » Sat Apr 21, 2018 4:07 pm

The problem with guildhouses is that there is negative incentive to have quarters in them.
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Re: [Housing] Andunor/underdark in dire need of additional housing

Post by Ork » Sat Apr 21, 2018 6:27 pm

I think the argument that quarters promote roleplay to be pretty flimsy. If your guild can't facilitate inclusive and entertaining roleplay, having a guildhall isn't going to fix that. I'm with BegoneThoth on this one.

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Re: [Housing] Andunor/underdark in dire need of additional housing

Post by WinkinBlinkin » Sat Apr 21, 2018 6:34 pm

We've doubled the player base, and people are defending people hoarding guildhouses with 5 rooms and more chests to a single player? Really?

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Re: [Housing] Andunor/underdark in dire need of additional housing

Post by Gods_Kill_People » Sat Apr 21, 2018 6:36 pm

Sadly yes, this is why that needs to change..if your not gonna use it for a faction and let others rent the room...stop buying it, let others who WANT to use it for its INTENTIONAL placement use it for exactly that!

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Re: [Housing] Andunor/underdark in dire need of additional housing

Post by BegoneThoth » Sat Apr 21, 2018 6:40 pm

Cortex wrote:
Sat Apr 21, 2018 4:07 pm
The problem with guildhouses is that there is negative incentive to have quarters in them.
Exactly.

Not to mention one day logging on, seeing the 'owner' forgot to open the quarter for five days or had to vanish for a week for work or got sick or lost their motherboard, and now you just lost everything inside as the new owner took over, changed the locks, and rip your stuff.

It's not really ideal.
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Re: [Housing] Andunor/underdark in dire need of additional housing

Post by BegoneThoth » Sat Apr 21, 2018 6:42 pm

Ork wrote:
Sat Apr 21, 2018 6:27 pm
I think the argument that quarters promote roleplay to be pretty flimsy. If your guild can't facilitate inclusive and entertaining roleplay, having a guildhall isn't going to fix that. I'm with BegoneThoth on this one.

To be fair we converted a guild hall into a church and had sermons and everything inside, before becoming an urban druid circle. So the location did facilitate rp due to the huge public space it provided.

But not all halls are built in a way to allow or promote that. Ours in Cordor was unique.
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Re: [Housing] Andunor/underdark in dire need of additional housing

Post by WinkinBlinkin » Sat Apr 21, 2018 6:48 pm

I agree, no-one wants to risk your possessions on the behaviour of another player. I know my idea isn't perfect, but there has to be a way to secure players possessions, and also to mean that guild houses aren't owned by single players. Seriously, in Andunor, calculate how many chests/rooms are held by how few people. We need an Occupy Andunor movement.

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Re: [Housing] Andunor/underdark in dire need of additional housing

Post by BegoneThoth » Sat Apr 21, 2018 7:02 pm

You can only have one quarter per account.

The Ud just has about five times as many players as quarters at the moment.
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Re: [Housing] Andunor/underdark in dire need of additional housing

Post by Durvayas » Sat Apr 21, 2018 7:32 pm

WinkinBlinkin wrote:
Sat Apr 21, 2018 6:48 pm
I agree, no-one wants to risk your possessions on the behaviour of another player. I know my idea isn't perfect, but there has to be a way to secure players possessions, and also to mean that guild houses aren't owned by single players. Seriously, in Andunor, calculate how many chests/rooms are held by how few people. We need an Occupy Andunor movement.
The current system isn't ideal. Your system isn't ideal either.

In your system, a faction of, say, 5 would have to have people occupying a 3 quarter guildhouse by buying each of the three quarters therein, and then buying the outer door. If the storage in the faction is being used communally, these rooms would all be set to 'public' or 'faction keyless entry'. In a very real sense, that would be no different than nobody renting the rooms at all and the faction using them as storage, which is what happens now. The only obvious difference is that the faction is paying signifigantly more to 'rent' the quarters located within their own building in your system in order to hold it.

Whats more, they'll be paying rent to the person owning the entire building(unless I'm dreaming, and rent from internal quarters does not go to the owner of the guildhouse), so that money doesn't even leave the faction, it just siphons money from the guild members to the guild leader, further de-incentivizing holding the quarters individually. The only way to make it a zero-sum game, would be for the faction leader holding the building to use our very clunky factions system to pay salaries to the people holding said rooms so that the money goes back to them every time they pay rent. Of course, I call the factions system clunky, because you can't pay salaries to people within your own faction, only to people outside of it, so this requires the creation of an entirely new faction, just to settle the logistics of rent between guildhouse owner and the people leasing therein. Of course, factions don't remain static, and attrition is a thing, so any such logistics setup will have to be updated constantly as the internal quarters change hands due to this arbitrary requirement that the quarters inside the building remain in someone specific's hands even if everything is being shared communally. And that is just so that being part of a faction that has a guildhouse isn't actively a detriment to the people in that faction purely because an unlucky few have to pay extra on internal locks(that aren't being used) for what the faction should already have for free. You just have 3 unlucky PCs paying extra, and two that don't have to contribute.

I'm sorry winkin. I agree that the housing situation is dire, but I don't think that that system is the way to go.

If you want to de-incentivize one man guildhouses, raise the rent on the guildhouse itself to make it harder for a single character to afford one without help unless they want to do nothing but grind gold.

Also, set guildhouses to draw out of faction bank accounts, rather than individual PC bank accounts, And let any faction member able to refresh the building by using the door.

Doing this would be more effective, because a faction can just set its members to paying a small due automatically to the faction itself, depending on how many characters are in the faction. A faction with 10 people paying will be able to afford that mansion a lot easier than that faction with 4. Furthermore, setting it so that any member of the faction can reset the timer on the door removes the risk of everyone in said faction losing their stuff in their personal quarters just because one player accidently let it time out.
Plays: Durvayas(deleted), Marco(deleted), Hounynrae(NPC), Sinithra Auvry'ndal(rolled), Rauvlin Barrith(Active), Madeline Clavelle(Shelved)

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Re: [Housing] Andunor/underdark in dire need of additional housing

Post by Gods_Kill_People » Sat Apr 21, 2018 7:41 pm

The problem with having it so every member can refresh it, is you get the leader stop playing for seven or eight weeks, and the faction still holds the property FOREVER. Never letting anyone else have the chance to own the property. Don't think thats a good way to go about it.

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Re: [Housing] Andunor/underdark in dire need of additional housing

Post by BegoneThoth » Sat Apr 21, 2018 7:47 pm

Gods_Kill_People wrote:
Sat Apr 21, 2018 7:41 pm
The problem with having it so every member can refresh it, is you get the leader stop playing for seven or eight weeks, and the faction still holds the property FOREVER. Never letting anyone else have the chance to own the property. Don't think thats a good way to go about it.
What? If the owner doesn't log for five days it goes public.
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Re: [Housing] Andunor/underdark in dire need of additional housing

Post by Durvayas » Sat Apr 21, 2018 7:52 pm

Gods_Kill_People wrote:
Sat Apr 21, 2018 7:41 pm
The problem with having it so every member can refresh it, is you get the leader stop playing for seven or eight weeks, and the faction still holds the property FOREVER. Never letting anyone else have the chance to own the property. Don't think thats a good way to go about it.
A valid concern with my suggestion. One that might be mitigated by removing the ability to -faction refresh for anyone but the the creator of the faction.

It would require the faction leader to purchase the building and tether the faction to the structure. If no one is able to refresh the faction, said faction can only last 4 weeks at most before the building goes up for sale, regardless of how active the membership is. This also gives everyone in said faction time to gather their stuff and prepare for zero-hour when the doors open up.

Additionally, this is well handled by the DMs this way. If a faction leader rolls, or deletes, and a faction(somehow) doesn't collapse in their wake, the new leadership can make a new iteration of the faction using the -faction menu, ping the DMs to release the quarter(or ask settlement leadership to do so with them standing there) and they can do a handoff right there, re-tethering the structure to the new leader. There is the small matter of a faction's bank account, if the leader poofs without addressing it, but that is a matter any leader should take into account before rolling so as not to screw over their crew.
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Re: [Housing] Andunor/underdark in dire need of additional housing

Post by WinkinBlinkin » Sat Apr 21, 2018 8:12 pm

That's not how it would work, Durvayas.

Let's say we have a faction of five, which is currently holding 5 separate quarters. One of them is a guildhouse with three rooms/chests within. My system makes 2 of those 5 take rooms within the guildhouse. Instead of having 2 free chests for faction storage, they only get one. instead of having four other additional external quarters, they only have three. Giving less storage for the faction, but an entire extra accommodation for another person who currently doesn't have one at all.

More realistically, we have a faction which has ten members. Three of them hold guildhouses with five rooms each, plus two free chests for group storage. Two of them hold three room/chest guilds, and the other five have a one chest quarter each. My system forces all of them to share the [three] four guildhouses, leaving an entire five apartments free for five currently homeless players, or to instead free up one of the large guildhouses and two smaller quarters.

Nobody has a right to several rooms of extra storage. You may be used to having this, if you've been part of a big faction for a long time, but lots of people have no private place to roleplay in at all.

We've got twice the player base. The devs can create more rentable quarters. They can also find ways to maximise the use of what we've got. A bit of a lack of supply is good for roleplay. A lot of a lack of supply, when so many people have so much in abundance, is extremely bad for server morale.

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Re: [Housing] Andunor/underdark in dire need of additional housing

Post by WinkinBlinkin » Sat Apr 21, 2018 8:30 pm

I know I sometimes write like I'm expecting people to do exactly what I'm recommending. I don't at all! The internet isn't very good at getting tone across at times, but I'm really only brainstorming here, not being entitled.

I'd also like to see a tenement block in Andunor. Some really seedy Bladerunner style highrise with lots of rats and dodgy food vendors.

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Re: [Housing] Andunor/underdark in dire need of additional housing

Post by BegoneThoth » Sat Apr 21, 2018 8:35 pm

I actually think some slum apartments would be exactly what's needed. A triple stack of small apartments (arranged like the cordor vaults) inserted into the UD and Cordor would provide a ton of new real estate as well as forcing a lot of people to live in one crowded area almost forcing the generation of RP due to sheer proximity.
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Re: [Housing] Andunor/underdark in dire need of additional housing

Post by Blood on my Lips » Sat Apr 21, 2018 9:04 pm

BegoneThoth wrote:
Sat Apr 21, 2018 8:35 pm
I actually think some slum apartments would be exactly what's needed. A triple stack of small apartments (arranged like the cordor vaults) inserted into the UD and Cordor would provide a ton of new real estate as well as forcing a lot of people to live in one crowded area almost forcing the generation of RP due to sheer proximity.
I would rather see more housing in areas that aren't regulated by settlement governments. It can very difficult to find housing if you have been exiled. I'd like to see more housing in places like Sibyad, The Crow's Nest, Mayfields, The city of Andunor, and The Port District.

I would also like to see the bank vaults moved to neutral areas.

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Re: [Housing] Andunor/underdark in dire need of additional housing

Post by Durvayas » Sat Apr 21, 2018 9:04 pm

Lets shoot for an ideal middle ground.

Lets say your system is adopted winkin;

1)You need to hold 3/5(60%) or 2/3(66%), or any number that puts your group over the 50% mark in order to establish control of the outer door.

Lets say ideally, that...

2) if you fall beneath that number, you have a week, maybe two, to restore majority control before the outer door becomes open and anyone can rush your communal storage.

Lets establish factional control by...

3) Require that the faction leader tether the main door to the -faction, and rent is paid out of the faction bank.

Lets prevent the 'leader breaks their computer for a week and everyone loses everything' issue by

4) Let everyone within the faction refresh the outer door to satisfy the classic 7 day timer.

And lets prevent factions from being immortal and holding the holding forever even if their leader quits by...

5) Ensure that only the faction leader can refresh the faction, meaning the leader can be inactive for at most a month before the faction ceases to exist, triggering the door release from (3) becoming impossible because the faction bank no longer exists, and (4) being impossible, because there is no longer a faction to be a part of.

Even if this happens, we can prevent it being catastrophic for individual players because...

6) If (1) remains satisfied even if (5) occurs, the characters currently holding the internal quarters do not lose their quarters, and can re-establish control of the front door by forming a new -faction and satisfying (3). This also prevents sudden hostile takeover with no interaction, an improvement from the current system.

Streamlining control of the interior doors so that they could be set to be communal for the faction without being open to the public later could be as simple as tethering those quarters to the faction's 'keyless entry' command. If the faction ceases to exist, they'd lock out everyone but their original owners and the people with keys.

Using this system, I think we can maximize participation of individual internal quarter ownership, while still allowing factions to have one(or more) communal storage chests for factional use. At the same time we can make factions losing control of their front door on accident less likely and less catastrophic, further incentivizing factional centralization and headquartering, in that no more than 40% of a faction's storage can be raided suddenly when the front door goes down(not that such a thing would happen without warning anyways, thanks to (2)and(5)). Thanks to (3) and (4), holding a guildhouse would be less of an individual burden, and contribute less to burnout of leadership, allowing it to feel less like a job. You could actually take a 1-2 week vacation with your family as a leader without everything going tits up, or having to completely re-organize and make an entirely new set of keys and hand off the property.

I see no downsides.
Plays: Durvayas(deleted), Marco(deleted), Hounynrae(NPC), Sinithra Auvry'ndal(rolled), Rauvlin Barrith(Active), Madeline Clavelle(Shelved)

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Re: [Housing] Andunor/underdark in dire need of additional housing

Post by Ebonstar » Sat Apr 21, 2018 10:34 pm

this is just from a walk about today in Andunor and the Port area.

four shops and three guild houses owned by one faction

just my opinion but this shouldnt be allowed for one faction to have three guildhouses
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Re: [Housing] Andunor/underdark in dire need of additional housing

Post by BegoneThoth » Sat Apr 21, 2018 10:35 pm

So, if you're in a faction, the whole faction can only have one quarter between it? 15 people sharing 15 box slots?

No way dude.
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Re: [Housing] Andunor/underdark in dire need of additional housing

Post by Ebonstar » Sat Apr 21, 2018 10:38 pm

BegoneThoth wrote:
Sat Apr 21, 2018 10:35 pm
So, if you're in a faction, the whole faction can only have one quarter between it? 15 people sharing 15 box slots?

No way dude.
not a quarter guildhouse meaning multiple quarters inside
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Re: [Housing] Andunor/underdark in dire need of additional housing

Post by BegoneThoth » Sat Apr 21, 2018 10:41 pm

Ebonstar wrote:
Sat Apr 21, 2018 10:38 pm
BegoneThoth wrote:
Sat Apr 21, 2018 10:35 pm
So, if you're in a faction, the whole faction can only have one quarter between it? 15 people sharing 15 box slots?

No way dude.
not a quarter guildhouse meaning multiple quarters inside
what?
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Re: [Housing] Andunor/underdark in dire need of additional housing

Post by Ebonstar » Sat Apr 21, 2018 10:47 pm

BegoneThoth wrote:
Sat Apr 21, 2018 10:41 pm
Ebonstar wrote:
Sat Apr 21, 2018 10:38 pm
BegoneThoth wrote:
Sat Apr 21, 2018 10:35 pm
So, if you're in a faction, the whole faction can only have one quarter between it? 15 people sharing 15 box slots?

No way dude.
not a quarter guildhouse meaning multiple quarters inside
what?
a quarter is a single spot for a single character mostly with a single chest of 20 slots

a guildhouse of which I was talking about is a large property with usually 2 main chests of which there are 20 slots inside each and then multiple quarters inside that others can buy or use with a storage chest of 20 slots in each as well
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Re: [Housing] Andunor/underdark in dire need of additional housing

Post by BegoneThoth » Sat Apr 21, 2018 10:49 pm

Yeah, why would a faction be limited to a guildhall only? People just wouldn't join the faction and have their own place.

It's not a good idea, forcing all faction members to own one guildhall.
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