Dice Rolls & RP Tools

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Iceborn
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Re: Dice Rolls & RP Tools

Post by Iceborn » Thu Apr 12, 2018 8:01 pm

One thing, first!
I use the general you, not targeted at any player in specific. These are questions that I pose, to you, the reader, whoever you are.

I've never liked PvP in Arelith. It's something that is part of the game, yes, but it's something that I rather see from the side than to take part in unless I feel that it's part of the story, and not a coffee intermission like a 2 minute pause where we pretend we are playing a MOBA instead. Regardless how I feel, yes, it's something that is used to resolve situations in one way or another - where you have a disagreement that can't be solved through the use of diplomacy or persuasion, that is a disagreement that it seems common consensus that the dice should solve for you. That has always looked lazy to me, and definitely not something I want to see more often.

Player versus player is a concept that is aberrant by itself. You are never supposed to be against other players; the nature of the game is that of cooperative story writing, where taking the upper hand over other player should, paradoxically, increase their narrative options, not limit them to a "do what I want". And if there's a lack of options, that very lack is the story itself, but it is by choice of the players to drive their characters in that direction; not because there was an actual binary of a character that had a mechanical control over the other.

I may be idealist at times, but I know all too well that there's too many players that don't share this outlook, and that's not something you can report. You can't report people for not being flexible enough in their stories or thinking issues can be solved with PvP (they can).

With the die it's not different. You will have the same three kinds of players: The ones that abuse the system, the ones that are sensible about it, and the ones that don't care.

Now, just to nitpick:
R0GUE wrote:
Thu Apr 12, 2018 2:27 pm

In Arelith, PvP is allowed when it comes to physical interactions, why can't PvP also be allowed when it comes to social interactions? That's what the skills persuade and bluff are there for. I understand that the Devs also have given them some other small benefits that are a little more "crunchy" for lack of a better word. But to me taking skill ranks in Persuade is not worth getting a little extra gold for turning in bounties. To ignore that skill's intended purpose handicaps certain classes like the rogue and the bard. Think of these skills as a way to solve social challenges, in the same way a PvP battle is intended to solve physical challenges. Say you and another player are having a battle of wits, it would be nice to determine a winner. Or say you lie to another player. In an improv class, or a LARP, you could read their face, look for cues, but in D&D (especially a video game version with low poly graphics like NWN) the next best thing would be opposed dice roles.
This is the magic of roleplay, that has kept the server alive even though you can count the polygons in the face of your character with the fingers. The very same way you can lie in real life, a good roleplayer will give the same cues in their writing, so that their characters are not hard-faced killahs with absolutely not a sliver of change in their expression when it comes to writing a story.
You will not see it happen often, like people that has learned to throw up a fight, but it's a sign of the kind of behavior that we should encourage, and not made redundant to use and hide behind the rolls of a die.

/2cents.
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Re: Dice Rolls & RP Tools

Post by Seven Sons of Sin » Fri Apr 13, 2018 3:40 am

I'll echo what Iceborn said. He said it nicely.

I analogize Arelith and roleplaying to improv than Dungeons and Dragons because Arelith isn't about winning. To the vast majority of players, D&D really is about ... winning. You won't find success on Arelith if you're driven to become the bestest. In fact, the community doesn't remember or honour those characters that often.

So, if Arelith isn't about winning but instead collaboration, using dice rolls where you're mechanically competing against one another to determine outcomes shifts social interactions from something collaborative to something competitive. That's not the jive we're trying go for here.

PvP is a tricky component to all of this. It's arguably the most inflated because [a] the community talks about mechanics 99% of the time in the lens of PvP and PvP creates the most controversy and resentment than probably any other aspect of Arelith. I guarantee bad blood on Arelith is a direct cause of PvP.

To an extent, it's necessary. There are absolutely points of time in a story where suddenly you want to shift from a collaborative back-and-forth to a decisive winner and loser. This makes for good storytelling. HOWEVER, the real grace of a roleplayer comes from using PvP as indeed a summation of conflict and collaboration than competitiveness to win.

Again, that's grossly generalizing all PvP - sometimes it can be a good thing (like a highwayman who is really going to try to rob you, or a hedge mage necromancer who really is going to try to corrupt you). But, good players will approach PvP as an extension of storytelling.

That is to say, there's general sentiment that good PVP is really an awesome sight, but also very hard to find because it more often than not results in a loser. Adding dice rolls to the server just encourages another point of conflict and competitiveness where we really should be trying to foster more avenues for give-and-take collaboration than my 18+4 beats your silly 5.
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Re: Dice Rolls & RP Tools

Post by R0GUE » Fri Apr 13, 2018 5:17 am

Seven Sons of Sin wrote:
Fri Apr 13, 2018 3:40 am
To the vast majority of players, D&D really is about ... winning.
I have rarely if ever found this to be true. No offense but the people you are playing with and observing are doing it wrong.

EDIT: Sorry I decided my short answer might be misconstrued as rudeness. I don't mean it to come off that way.

What I mean to say is, the point of D&D is not winning. The point of D&D is to have fun. There are gamer types who like to "conquer things" sure, and gamer types who prefer to interact with each other and play the part of an actor. Both approaches can be fun. But I get that this server is oriented toward the latter.

But the best D&D groups I've been involved with (and I should let you know I've been playing and DMing games for over 25 years) have been the ones who were most immersed in the storytelling. I had a player recently, who had been grappled by a giant toad and we had joked earlier in the game he was going to lose a limb. I joked with him that as DM that this would be the opportune time for that to happen, but I wouldn't be that mean. He was very much "No man, do it! It's too perfect!" So we left it up to chance and a dice roll. The suspension of that roll was terrifying and exhilarating at the same moment. So as you can see, he wasn't concerned at all about "winning". He wanted to tell a fantastic story. (Oh by the way he did indeed lose his arm, and he roleplayed the handicap brilliantly.)

So there's an example where a dice roll, was not used for power gaming or winning, but led to the enjoyment of all at the table.

I am really really sorry that you've come across so many selfish D&D players that you feel "most are concerned with winning". It makes me really feel bad for you and hope you have better experiences in the future.

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Re: Dice Rolls & RP Tools

Post by Iceborn » Fri Apr 13, 2018 7:51 am

There's an attitude that I've learned to take in Arelith:
Preach idealism, but prepare for realism.

Nobody is without faults, and there are no two players that share the same outlook.
If anything, in this server you will find a more than diverse array of people, eclectic as I wrote before.
And not all that people will be as eager to build a story, nor those that want to build a story may get the same kicks of having the most munchkinned build of the server.

What the point of DnD is, it doesn't really matter. We are talking about Arelith here, and Arelith may be based on DnD, but it's long taken its own turn and created its own culture, its own personality and set of values, that seem to shift with the thickness of the community and the involvement of the dev team with the former.

The reality of Arelith is not without noxious components. You don't get a DM to lead you on a story often, or let alone help you with your own, and you don't get to know beforehand the people that you share room with as you write.
You can only roleplay, and hope that the random array of people that you share your time with is interested in the same values as you. It's not an expectation that will be met every time, but that's the price we pay for having an open community and the loose set of ideals that hold Arelith together.
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Re: Dice Rolls & RP Tools

Post by Mithreas » Fri Apr 13, 2018 8:30 am

R0GUE,

Welcome to Arelith, and thank you for your eloquent posts.

A few comments on the discusison.

Firstly, Iceborn's strong anti-PvP views, while by no means unique (and possibly not even in a minority), aren't shared by all players. Where he has a point, and as Seven commented, any CvC (character vs character) act is loosely termed "PvP". The best conflict RP usually comes when the conflict is CvC not PvP, though in a community of hundreds of players from different backgrounds, and particularly those used to MMOs where C and P are the same thing, all too often that distinction is lost.

I like your example about the frog. To me, that's exactly the sort of moment that stands out - and it stands out when both sides are working together to tell a story. On Arelith, most of the environment that players play in is comprised of other players, and that means we end up doing a lot of things differently from PnP (pen and paper), simply because you don't get to choose who you play with. A good example would be our restrictions on unusual subraces, which, if too many players play them, start to impinge upon the setting, even if every single one is played really well.

As such, your proposed solution of banning the offending players isn't really practical. Firstly, we'd need clear and more complex rules to capture what is and isn't acceptable. We could do that, but keeping the rules simple has always been a priority for us, as part of making Arelith easy to join and play in, and as part of keeping the DM team from spending all their time playing RP police. The exact counterpoint to yours would be; why include a system that is likely to be abused, and to create lots of extra unpleasant DM work policing it? Secondly, even if we were to write and enforce clear rules, our community is huge. Enough people would, either through misunderstanding or through genuine trolling intent, misuse the system before getting corrected that almost every player would be touched by it at some point. [You might be surprised by how much DM time is spent purely on handling fallout from PvP issues. It's not much fun].

So it's really a matter of cost/benefit. The console system already allows consenting players to use skill checks to determine outcomes, and it's already used by a significant minority of players to do exactly that. Making it more "official" doesn't make a huge difference to the players who already use the existing tools well, but opens up a large can of worms that requires a bunch of additional enforcement work. In short, we've never seen that tradeoff as worth it :-)

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Re: Dice Rolls & RP Tools

Post by Nitro » Fri Apr 13, 2018 10:00 am

Iceborn wrote:
Fri Apr 13, 2018 7:51 am
What the point of DnD is, it doesn't really matter. We are talking about Arelith here, and Arelith may be based on DnD, but it's long taken its own turn and created its own culture, its own personality and set of values, that seem to shift with the thickness of the community and the involvement of the dev team with the former.
I think this is the most important part of what Iceborn is saying. Arelith isn't a P&P, it's closer to an MMO. We're not a group of 3-6 friends sitting at a table with a DM to oversee our collaborative storytelling, but thousands of players each with different views and objectives/plots they want to pull off with only a handful of DM's.

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Re: Dice Rolls & RP Tools

Post by Void » Fri Apr 13, 2018 12:48 pm

R0GUE wrote:
Thu Apr 12, 2018 2:27 pm
Iceborn wrote:
Thu Apr 12, 2018 9:44 am
Arelith is, first and foremost, a roleplay server.
If roleplay is secondary to you, then I'm afraid to tell you, you are in the wrong place.

No one is expected to be good at the game, but the nature of the game is that not disimilar of an improv class, and if you aren't good at it... well, too bad?
I know this may sound cold at best, elitist at worst, but, eclectic as Arelith may be, if you force together two players with completely opposite ideas of how the game should be played - one expecting to build a story, the other thinking Arelith is some kind of MMO/MOBA mix, there's the real chance that they will fail to find a middle ground and from that encounter only frustration will follow.

I like the die, but I've seen it more often abused than not. If you want to rely on those, you can employ them as honor system as mentioned above, but I personally rather Arelith without it, where choices are dictated by eloquence, scenes and conditions (and poorly, by mechanical prowess).
I want to make one more rebuttal, but this is intended to be a polite response, I am not trying to be overly argumentative I promise, because I see where you are coming from.

First and foremost, roleplay is definitely not secondary to me. I ONLY play on RP-focused servers when it comes to NWN. I am happy Arelith is so roleplay focused and friendly. But to me, being a roleplay server, while improv and acting is part of it, it's not the complete sum of it. To me a roleplay server should not strive to be an acting exercise, it should strive to be a game of Dungeons and Dragons. Dungeons and Dragons is a game, not an exercise, and in that game there are mechanics for social interactions.

In Arelith, PvP is allowed when it comes to physical interactions, why can't PvP also be allowed when it comes to social interactions? That's what the skills persuade and bluff are there for. I understand that the Devs also have given them some other small benefits that are a little more "crunchy" for lack of a better word. But to me taking skill ranks in Persuade is not worth getting a little extra gold for turning in bounties. To ignore that skill's intended purpose handicaps certain classes like the rogue and the bard. Think of these skills as a way to solve social challenges, in the same way a PvP battle is intended to solve physical challenges. Say you and another player are having a battle of wits, it would be nice to determine a winner. Or say you lie to another player. In an improv class, or a LARP, you could read their face, look for cues, but in D&D (especially a video game version with low poly graphics like NWN) the next best thing would be opposed dice roles.

The best example of all this coming together that I can think of is the show Critical Role. I'm sure most people are familiar with it by now, but if you aren't, its a Twitch-streamed D&D game, that is very roleplay oriented as all the players and the DM are actors/voice actors. They really stress the improv, acting part of D&D. But even in their game, Matt Mercer, the DM will call for Deception, Persuasion, and Insight checks when the game calls for it. And moreover, the players will roll those skills against each other and take the results. They do so because there is a social contract between players to abide by the rules. It doesn't interrupt the flow of their improv, in fact to me it really enhances it.

Now, it sounds like to me that those of you who are opposed to rolls for social interactions, are opposed because they've run into too many players who do NOT abide by that social contract. They abuse the dice, or don't abide by the results, or metagame the situation. So I totally get that, and understand your reluctance. My one last counter argument would be that instead of banning a useful system, you should ban the offending players. If you found a player griefing other systems, such as PvP, you wouldn't get rid of PvP, you would ban the player. I guess that's my argument.

So that's my counter-proposal, thank you for reading it. Like I said, I am ok going with the flow of the server, and I can use the console if necessary. It would just be easier if I had my handy virtual dicebag. :)
There are few problems here.

First, counter skills for social skills aren't even implemented in nwn1. There's no sense motive. Going by PVP analogy it is like having AB but no AC.
Second, rolling dice in a social interaction reduces it to a mere chance, instead of being battle of wits. This.... isn't very fun, to be honest, because rather than trying something else, people sorta lock themself into a mere mechanical roll.

And third... I saw dice skill rolls being used for a few years on other servers, and I can't think of even one situation where they had any positive impact. If you want a dice bag, sure, that's reasonable and even cool - I mean there's already a deck of card in the game. But when speaking about skill rolls, in my experience, people always use skill rolls in attempt to "win" something or even show off their skill investment. Looking back that mechanic always cheapened the experience rather than improving it. instead of acting something out, somebody would, for example, yell "get lost" and roll intimidate 76. This is... not very believable, convincing or "immersive". As I said before, seeing arelith environment without those skill rolls was a breath of fresh air.
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Re: Dice Rolls & RP Tools

Post by Marsi » Fri Apr 13, 2018 1:38 pm

NegInfinity wrote:
Fri Apr 13, 2018 12:48 pm
There are few problems here.

First, counter skills for social skills aren't even implemented in nwn1. There's no sense motive. Going by PVP analogy it is like having AB but no AC.
Second, rolling dice in a social interaction reduces it to a mere chance, instead of being battle of wits. This.... isn't very fun, to be honest, because rather than trying something else, people sorta lock themself into a mere mechanical roll.

And third... I saw dice skill rolls being used for a few years on other servers, and I can't think of even one situation where they had any positive impact. If you want a dice bag, sure, that's reasonable and even cool - I mean there's already a deck of card in the game. But when speaking about skill rolls, in my experience, people always use skill rolls in attempt to "win" something or even show off their skill investment. Looking back that mechanic always cheapened the experience rather than improving it. instead of acting something out, somebody would, for example, yell "get lost" and roll intimidate 76. This is... not very believable, convincing or "immersive". As I said before, seeing arelith environment without those skill rolls was a breath of fresh air.
This says everything I was thinking.

I get the anti-improv stance, and I actually happen to agree with it in regards to singleplayer RPGs -- shouldn't it be the character's ability put to the test, not the player's? However, Arelith of course is not a singleplayer RPG, nor has it ever really aspired to be faithful to PnP. I have never been confident that the sort of antiquated game mechanics of traditional DnD really capture enough nuance for the expression of social skills to be tied to dicerolls.

"Why PvP but not skill rolls" doesn't hold in my eyes for both the reasons NegInfinity points out but also because PvP is much, much more than simply a clash of two dice rolls. There is infrastructure behind it, and complexity introduced in all the millions of ways that a player can make decisions. In fact, there is a lot of OOC skill when it comes to PvP. Why should a player be able to exercise their tactical ability and fight here and not there? Use this weapon and not that? Shouldn't that be a diceroll, as non-tactically inclined players are disadvantaged if they wanted to play Red Knight tactician? Etc. I think it just leads to an "abstraction spiral". Eventually, you have to draw a line and this is just where Arelith has decided it ought to be.

And much like NegInfinity, I've had a bad experience of "rollplay" servers. It's not about a couple of bad eggs, but rather a systematic, self-perpetuating problem that encourages the worst in almost everyone. I think the most obvious argument against rollplay is that mechanical determinism really only "works" on those servers with a strong DM presence who control the field of play and referee all behaviour between players. This just would not work in the Arelithian sandbox.

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Re: Dice Rolls & RP Tools

Post by MissEvelyn » Fri Apr 13, 2018 2:03 pm

Nitro wrote:
Mon Apr 09, 2018 8:29 pm
I quite like that Arelith doesn't have any built-in dice tools, no situations of someone doing something intimidating, rolling intimidate and then expecting everyone to go along because they rolled 62 on the dice tool.
This sums up how I feel about it. On a NWN2 server I used to play on, the rolls were a thing, and it was horrible. Those who rolled extremely high bluff scores expected their ridiculous claims to be believed, and they got very mad OOCly when your character did not believe.

This type of roleplay is not ROLE play, but ROLL play, and we already have more than enough of that. It's much more rewarding when you actually play what's on your sheet.

A small side-note. I do this now and then, and it may be silly, but try it and see if you like it. I keep a real life d20 next to me when I'm playing Arelith. Any time I want to pull something off, whether it be a bluff, intimidate someone, or even a reaction to something unusual that happened, I roll the dice and add whatever relevant modifiers to it - and then I roleplay accordingly.
I don't do this all the time, but it does add a little twist to the outcome of the roleplay. Try it out! =)


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Re: Dice Rolls & RP Tools

Post by R0GUE » Fri Apr 13, 2018 2:32 pm

Thank you Mithreas for taking the time to explain the situation from the DM side. I mean you guys have certainly convinced me that the dice bag isn't a good choice for Arelith, just because of the scope of the world and size of its player base. I'm coming from PW's where max you'd have 20 people running around at a time. So I get it. I was more defending (and will continue to defend) the idea that you can incorporate some social dice rolls and still be focused on ROLE play. It just takes an honor system on all sides.

Moreover I think sometimes, not having a dice roll can take the agency AWAY from a player (take for an example a case where you tell a lie convincingly, but the other PC chooses not to believe you just out of stubbornness or metagame reasons). Now that I think about it though, I realize in a way you guys actually do have a form of social dice rolling happening on Arelith in the -disguise system. It's just I haven't been able to effectively witness or use it, because its in a broken state right now correct?

I do feel bad so many of you have had bad experiences involving dice. I used to play on a couple of small/medium size servers back in the early days where I think people used it sparingly and in the right situations mostly. But I am glad you've found a home that more suits your style. It won't ruin my enjoyment, I will continue to occasionally roll dice in private and/or on the console on those very rare occasions I think its necessary. I hope that won't rub too many of you the wrong way.
NegInfinity wrote:
Fri Apr 13, 2018 12:48 pm
First, counter skills for social skills aren't even implemented in nwn1. There's no sense motive. Going by PVP analogy it is like having AB but no AC.
Well there is, but in most cases the DC is set by the game designer who made the module. I think of it as, they know the characters stats, and they are giving you the "appropriate DC" based on that character's personality. They just don't roll, it's a static number.

But you are right in that there is now sense motive, no insight, for which the PC to roll against a bluff or deception check. So that's another good argument you guys have on your side. Anyway I'm satisfied, I just hope that I made my case politely and compellingly.

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Re: Dice Rolls & RP Tools

Post by Void » Fri Apr 13, 2018 4:09 pm

R0GUE wrote:
Fri Apr 13, 2018 2:32 pm
NegInfinity wrote:
Fri Apr 13, 2018 12:48 pm
First, counter skills for social skills aren't even implemented in nwn1. There's no sense motive. Going by PVP analogy it is like having AB but no AC.
Well there is, but in most cases the DC is set by the game designer who made the module.
There is no game designer when you're interacting with another person. The other person is a player like you.

You'll be dealing with inconsistencies at best, or inappropriate DCs at worst if you let the other player decide it.

If there's a DM present, and you're interacting with an NPC, sure DMs can decide the DCs for the npcs. When you're dealing with another player, however, it won't work well.
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Re: Dice Rolls & RP Tools

Post by Mithreas » Sat Apr 14, 2018 11:33 pm

I'm going to crosspost and reply to something Maladus said in the UD server thread, because it's actually very relevant to this discussion.
Maladus wrote:
Sat Apr 14, 2018 3:37 pm
While I agree that you should build well to counter those others who build well, I don't like that it has to be that way. My first every Drowess was a character that I didn't really have a plan for when starting her build. I knew that I wanted Cleric and that was about it. I took stats that I thought would be useful in an RP sense (basically Charisma because I wanted her to be smoking hot and use that to her advantage), I took Rogue levels at level 9-11 because Lolth is all about trickery and deceit, and I probably had some skillpoints invested into RP skills.

Not only is this bad for when you get to level 30 and start engaging in conflict with other players, but outside of possible DM events, there isn't really a whole lot that mechanically supports RP builds. Now I'm not saying it would be easy to find ways to mehcanically support it, and powerbuilders are going to powerbuild...but I like to dream of a world where RP > power.
This is a common misconception.

Roleplay doesn't mean "choose your own reality" - it has to be grounded in a common understanding of truth. Some players are good at the mechanical side of NWN, building mechanically effective characters and with experience (and expertise) in tactical combat play (don't overlook the latter, I've seen plenty of instances where a mechanically weaker character wins a fight through clever play). This means that their characters tend to have more combat power than those played by people like me.

This is a fact, in the world, and something all players can respond to. If one of my characters goes up against, say, one played by Cortex, I will probably lose, regardless of the detailed mechanics at play. If I want to oppose Cortex's faction, it behoves me to recruit to my side some folks who can hold the line against him (or try and recruit him away from his faction!). The fact of mechanical inferiority is a constraint on my character's plans, and like any other constraint there is plenty of meaningful RP to be derived from dealing with the challenge.

This isn't a question of power somehow dominating RP - it's a matter of the strengths and weaknesses of us as players bleeding over into our characters. And it's far from the only way in which it occurs. For example, some players are good at understanding other people and persuading them, making it easier for them to start and lead factions. (That's one of my strengths, for example). A character played by a player like that will have a lot more success trying to take and hold a leadership position, because they will win the respect of other characters far more easily. Back in Udos days, I had a lot of fun plotting to become Ul'faeruk of Sorcere and then to become independent of the control of any one House, but it took a healthy dose of player skill to achieve, that while *supported* by the character sheet of a very high INT wizard, wasn't *made possible* by it.

Your character is more than just their character sheet. You as a player add plenty to them - their personality, their goals, and, yes, a lot of their actual skill in battle and in politics. As such, in an MMO environment, your character is to some degree limited by your abilities as a player. Any attempt to "fix" this mechanically would have a massively detrimental effect on the environment by making it harder to align everyone on the shared reality that we are playing within - but happily, these skills are all trainable, and we as players can get better at the sorts of things we want our characters to excel at. Learning how to be a Drow matron, for example, is absolutely something that takes time and effort on the part of the player - and that makes for a much more rewarding character arc. Ditto learning how to be good at PvP - Arelith has arenas, go study IC, and don't rely on simply adding points to your character sheet to make you better at something.
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Re: Dice Rolls & RP Tools

Post by Rebel4ever » Sun Apr 15, 2018 3:50 pm

Roleplay doesn't mean "choose your own reality" - it has to be grounded in a common understanding of truth. Some players are good at the mechanical side of NWN, building mechanically effective characters and with experience (and expertise) in tactical combat play (don't overlook the latter, I've seen plenty of instances where a mechanically weaker character wins a fight through clever play). This means that their characters tend to have more combat power than those played by people like me.
Two players building for different things. If it was a PVP server everyone would know where they stood. However on a roleplay server its far less clear. I imagine most roleplayers will at least make their first character a roleplay stated one, seems pretty sad they like won't be competitive in pvp due to this.
This is a fact, in the world, and something all players can respond to. If one of my characters goes up against, say, one played by Cortex, I will probably lose, regardless of the detailed mechanics at play. If I want to oppose Cortex's faction, it behoves me to recruit to my side some folks who can hold the line against him (or try and recruit him away from his faction!). The fact of mechanical inferiority is a constraint on my character's plans, and like any other constraint there is plenty of meaningful RP to be derived from dealing with the challenge.
You don't have to have a weak RP build to roleplay. If you were competitive it would still make sense to get the advantage.
For example, some players are good at understanding other people and persuading them, making it easier for them to start and lead factions.
That has nothing to do with your build though. That is the player behind the keyboard.
Your character is more than just their character sheet
Mechanically they are not.
You as a player add plenty to them - their personality, their goals, and, yes, a lot of their actual skill in battle and in politics.
That has nothing to do with build. You can do that with a power build or RP build.
As such, in an MMO environment, your character is to some degree limited by your abilities as a player. Any attempt to "fix" this mechanically would have a massively detrimental effect on the environment by making it harder to align everyone on the shared reality that we are playing within - but happily, these skills are all trainable, and we as players can get better at the sorts of things we want our characters to excel at.
Skills can be improved a bad build will stay a bad build. Roleplay is can be learned with your character...on the other hand a new build means your gonna have to start all over again. This just says "You made a mistake stating for roleplay make a decent build if you want to be competitive" which is fine..if everyone starts with the same goal in mind.

All i got from this was saying if you build for roleplay find a way around your weakness but if you build for power you can do what you like.

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Re: Dice Rolls & RP Tools

Post by triaddraykin » Mon Apr 16, 2018 3:40 am

I recall a recent situation where a character was omitting information, while speaking with someone with decent (20-30) spot. The player would have never noticed the information missing, because she's not nearly that perceptive themselves.

They Tell'd back and forth, and one rolled a 39, destroying their bluff roll. The information was passed along for what exactly she was avoiding, making reference to what the character had done to show she was avoiding the subject.

To the observers, they saw an elf who's worked a long, long time around humans, see right through to the heart of the issue. She looked like a badass for it. For the side of the bluffer, she got visibly more nervous, and ended up teleporting out, with everyone now aware of a new piece of the puzzle they'd sought to solve.

It was a brilliantly handled bit of roleplay, and exactly how I think DiceRoll RolePlay should be handled: Consent of both, and used specifically to further the story of those involved. The elf gained respect of the observers, and the human let slip a critical part of her character's motivations that will enable others to help or hinder her... When they catch her again.
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Re: Dice Rolls & RP Tools

Post by R0GUE » Mon Apr 16, 2018 6:08 am

triaddraykin wrote:
Mon Apr 16, 2018 3:40 am
I recall a recent situation where a character was omitting information, while speaking with someone with decent (20-30) spot. The player would have never noticed the information missing, because she's not nearly that perceptive themselves.

They Tell'd back and forth, and one rolled a 39, destroying their bluff roll. The information was passed along for what exactly she was avoiding, making reference to what the character had done to show she was avoiding the subject.

To the observers, they saw an elf who's worked a long, long time around humans, see right through to the heart of the issue. She looked like a badass for it. For the side of the bluffer, she got visibly more nervous, and ended up teleporting out, with everyone now aware of a new piece of the puzzle they'd sought to solve.

It was a brilliantly handled bit of roleplay, and exactly how I think DiceRoll RolePlay should be handled: Consent of both, and used specifically to further the story of those involved. The elf gained respect of the observers, and the human let slip a critical part of her character's motivations that will enable others to help or hinder her... When they catch her again.
This is exactly the kind of example I was trying to bring up as fun and worthwhile. Thanks! And yeh, I agree it has to have consent of both parties.

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Re: Dice Rolls & RP Tools

Post by Rebel4ever » Mon Apr 16, 2018 9:18 am

I recall a recent situation where a character was omitting information, while speaking with someone with decent (20-30) spot. The player would have never noticed the information missing, because she's not nearly that perceptive themselves.

They Tell'd back and forth, and one rolled a 39, destroying their bluff roll. The information was passed along for what exactly she was avoiding, making reference to what the character had done to show she was avoiding the subject.

To the observers, they saw an elf who's worked a long, long time around humans, see right through to the heart of the issue. She looked like a badass for it. For the side of the bluffer, she got visibly more nervous, and ended up teleporting out, with everyone now aware of a new piece of the puzzle they'd sought to solve.

It was a brilliantly handled bit of roleplay, and exactly how I think DiceRoll RolePlay should be handled: Consent of both, and used specifically to further the story of those involved. The elf gained respect of the observers, and the human let slip a critical part of her character's motivations that will enable others to help or hinder her... When they catch her again.
Exactly how it should be. I think for RP to function properly people have to be reasonable about what they expect in all things. On one server i played in NWN2 some folk used to write extra information in their bio's with a spot check..we didn't use rolls just the flat numbers. So people saying "i have a 20 lore check i know everything about you now" are simply not reasonable...you might recognise an insignia or something but that is about it.

A good example when a roll/stat check might be useful is when a character is making a speech. If you have no charisma even if you say the right things people will be like "Meh". However if you have high charisma people will be cheering in agreement. Its easy to forget a stat hidden away in a biography when your having fun roleplaying. This would force people to RP their stats much more...I consider that a fair thing.

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Re: Dice Rolls & RP Tools

Post by DM Always This Late » Mon Apr 16, 2018 2:40 pm

Character stats are something I think you'll see come into play more in DM events, I often take a quick look at a characters skill sheet to determine what they are capable of when interacting with an event or if it's a more action based scene I'll actually use the dice tool to make them roll in specific areas.

For example, a wizard trying to load and aim a Ballista was not a specifically successful venture! While knowledge would have allowed him to know -how- to use it, he lacked the physical means to do so in a quick fashion often resulting missing the target.

Another example is seeing characters that roll up with -2 charisma, or negative Int etc, that will affect what details may be gleaned or an NPCs reaction to said PC.

I think a misconception may be that min/maxing stats for the greatest PVP/PVE effectiveness is more valuable then building than with RP oriented stats in mind. Or maybe if you just choose to ignore stats all together this isn't an issue... With DM events, the stats on your character sheet become relevant when determining the outcome of interactions. Your character is more than their PVP/PVE Effectiveness and a greater emphasis on such skills as more DM Events occur will make it more relevant to have actual skills.

Also! An element to achieving the higher RPR's would certainly be taking into account the stats of your character. Players that adhere to the limitiations of their character and pay attention to character stats or use them in RP have better chances of receiving that bonus, in my opinion.
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