Mark of the Pirate

[A little fellow]

Well that's the core issue, how do you see a tattoo through barkskin or shadow shield?

How do you spot a drow fully covered in clothes/gear? I say, you don't, and to RP appropriately.

The sub-race thing, something I was for, previously, im now 100% against, as it's clearly led to god-gaming and meta-gaming.

Depends, and this is also where player RP strength can mark a difference between a high RP Rating player and a low one. Neither is wrong:

One playerwho has gained the lore might go through fully covered clothes gear barkskin shadow shield that didn't use disguise "Hey, Pirate Face, keep your parrots squawking down."

Another of the same, might go: "Hey Face, keep your parrots squawking down!" as the interpretation of the same situation due to the same. We would consider this person a stronger Roleplayer /because/ they are allowing this person to get away and aren't really seeking to "win" immediately, letting their pirate secret attempt keeping draw out.

I.E., if you want your contestment against villains to draw out, perhaps giving them the benefit of the doubt is one such tool. Also increases their likelihood. But it's not a rule. It's a RP Rating thing. The villain side may want to disguise, to filter those who see them much more (Though only obviously if actually disguising.) Sometimes its also refreshing not to care, as you'll find quite a few that won't try to stomp you out immediately.

On sub-race identifying, again, say Dwarf meets Duergar who did not disguise for whatever reason that is fully clothed and garbed. Well, the Thane knows that most Duergar are thinner than dwarves, and could immediately make that distinction as their justification. Or take in account their dress, and demand the Duergar physically reveal themselves first. This is, once again, a differing RP style thing that can factor into future RP Rating evaluations. One gives the other side the benefit of the doubt more.

On the question pointed out to me, eye color is no. Height and weight tends to have averages for races and could be assigned by a guesser, so is not an issue, (Though the player could be wrong as the other player may later reveal its full on accuracy). Equipment can be misremembered, but if you never saw them pull out a bow, making it up seems odd unless your character wants to lie.

Anyway, let's keep this discussion to Mark of the Pirate! Looks like it's gone on a tangent.

I have said I have no problem with a player successfully breaking a disguise, or using their lore to determine a PC is a Drow, and RPing it as mere suspicion and giving the disguised/warded Drow the freedom to go about their day by willfully having your character overlook something you know to be true.

Again. My points were largely not about saying you can claim a Drow's eyes are red even if the player hasn't stated otherwise. But it is undeniable that Drow rarely have eyes any other colour than red, it's undeniable they have white hair, it's undeniable they're largely smaller than their Elf cousins and it's undeniable they would most likely not speak perfect common after having lived the vast majority of their lives not daring go near the dangerous surface world with the burning ball of fire in the sky. My point is that these are all ways which somebody who has successfully broken a disguise of a Drow MAY look to, to communicate that discovery beyond saying "A Drow! There! Look at its disgusting [FEATURE NOT FOUND]".

Whilst I would agree that bending your findings in the interest of another player is 100% a good thing, it takes two to tango, and another thing that is undeniable is that if a player HAS successfully broken a disguise, or determined a player is a Drow through the lore skill, they have a right to RP the outing of this character who's attempt to walk lands they do not belong in has at that moment failed.

The quality of the RP that proceeds after a successful spot check has been made against a disguised character isn't souly on the shoulders of the person who successfully spotted it. If the player who's disguised failed them received a tell asking "My PC has broken your disguise/My PC can tell you're a Drow, what would they see of note which determined this?" And their reply was "My character has no discernible features that you can tell" .. I would say that is not RP on par with a PC successfully checking a disguise and outing the sneak, but actually a worse example of RP. An instance where an RPer who has had their disguise legitimately broken, but overlooks the interest of fairness in favour of the interest of themselves - is the polar opposite of the example you gave - in which an RP who breaks a disguise willfully overlooks it in the interest of the disguised player.

[A little fellow]

And I think the same applies to pirate tattoos, even though I agree that there is perhaps a change of description needed that possibly puts the tattoos on their neck/face/hands etc ..

If a lore check determines a PC has pirate tattoos then the player who figures it out has the right to proceed. Whether or not they do it in a way that is healthy towards the continued RP is not unimportant, but it is secondary.


As for tattoos beneath barkskin .. I see no reason why, if uncovered, the tattoos can't still be visible. You'll find few pictures of Barkskin, but it's reasonable to think that the spell would give the skin a bark-like texture, whilst still retaining a fleshly colour.

[Queen Titania]

The above are all valid points, particularly eye color in the case where it is 99% chance the color, and about the quality standard going both ways.

[TimeAdept]

But it is undeniable that Drow rarely have eyes any other colour than red,

[citation needed]

(In fact, the FRCS says, and I quote: "They commonly have very pale eyes (so pale as to often be mistaken for white) in shades of pale lilac, silver, pink, and blue."

it's undeniable they have white hair,

[citation needed]

FRCS: And I quote - "Drow have black skin that resembles polished obsidian, and stark white or pale yellow hair."

Plyer's Guide to Faerun also says, "Rare hair colors included copper and silver."

it's undeniable they're largely smaller than their Elf cousins

Tell this to the people playing Drow PCs? I very very frequently see people whose descriptions note they are "tall, even by Elven standards" placing them firmly within standard Elf height.

it's undeniable they would most likely not speak perfect common after having lived the vast majority of their lives not daring go near the dangerous surface world with the burning ball of fire in the sky

[citation needed]

-language

"Common: Fluent".

Until that says otherwise, who are you to tell them how they speak?

Why do you continue to insist you are allowed to make up details about someone else's character because you broke their disguise, even after a DM has said it is not OK to do so?

but it's reasonable to think that the spell would give the skin a bark-like texture, whilst still retaining a fleshly colour.

Why is it reasonable to think this, when the ingame visual effect, WYSIWYG, the actual thing we all see and RP with, is a giant hunk of ugly brown bark completely covering the person? If Barkskin is changed to no longer provide this visual effect, then yes, I will agree with you. Until then, Arelith remains a server where you do not need to sourcebook dive to know particulars about spells or RP (even tho I love PnP), so let's not drag it into the argument.

----

Here's the million dollar question: It takes less Lore or Spot to identify a race than it does to break someone's disguise.

A Drow with 75 bluff is disguised as an elf. Unfortunately, it only takes 20 lore to discern they are an Drow, despite the fact that their 75 bluff is morethan enough to disguise them from a solid 95% of the server. How are you supposed to handle piercing their race when you can otherwise have no clue who they are, despite the fact that race can objectively be altered by the disguise skill? How can you tell someone is a Drow when you don't break their disguise? The disguise is explicitly hiding the fact that they are a Drow. These systems are automated things designed to spit out a result that may or may not actually reflect the situation occuring at the moment, just like how you can magically see a pirate tattoo underneath full plate armor that completely covers the body with chainmail and padding underneath, a tower shield, and a full visorless helm, especially when the tattoos are not facial.

Once again: A black and white reading of the mechanics, for disguises, for tattoos, for races, is not the proper way to do things. You are putting all the blame on the player for attempting to good faith roleplay, while you hide behind a black box with a number on it.

[A little fellow]

This is incredible. I really really urge you to actually read what I've written, and really try to understand the points I'm trying to get across before replying, because this is a clear circle here.

(In fact, the FRCS says, and I quote: "They commonly have very pale eyes (so pale as to often be mistaken for white) in shades of pale lilac, silver, pink, and blue."

"Drow eyes were usually bright red, but some had different colored, often much paler eyes such as blue, lilac, pink and silver"

FRCS: And I quote - "Drow have black skin that resembles polished obsidian, and stark white or pale yellow hair."

The fact that they also have /white/ and pale yellow hair kinda .. feeds in to my point that they have features which are distinguishable from other Elves.

Tell this to the people playing Drow PCs? I very very frequently see people whose descriptions note they are "tall, even by Elven standards" placing them firmly within standard Elf height.

You may see it frequently, but I actually didn't once say that Drow couldn't be tall even by Elven standards. On average Drow are shorter than their Elf cousins .. which (you guessed it) are features for their race which are distinguishable from other Elves.

[citation needed]

-language

"Common: Fluent".

Until that says otherwise, who are you to tell them how they speak?

[further citation needed]

From the Oxford dictionary "Fluent -- Able to express oneself easily and articulately."

My boss is Lithuanian, she speaks fluent English with a thick accent. This accent leads me to believe that she is not English, but in
fact Lithuanian.

Why do you continue to insist you are allowed to make up details about someone else's character because you broke their disguise, even after a DM has said it is not OK to do so?

Why do you continue to not read what I am writing?

My point is that these are all ways which somebody who has successfully broken a disguise of a Drow MAY look to, to communicate that discovery beyond saying "A Drow! There! Look at its disgusting [FEATURE NOT FOUND]".

(I wrote that)

Why is it reasonable to think this, when the ingame visual effect, WYSIWYG, the actual thing we all see and RP with, is a giant hunk of ugly brown bark completely covering the person? If Barkskin is changed to no longer provide this visual effect, then yes, I will agree with you. Until then, Arelith remains a server where you do not need to sourcebook dive to know particulars about spells or RP (even tho I love PnP), so let's not drag it into the argument.

There clearly is no need to drag out the argument because we both agree fully. What you see is what you get, totally agree.

Which is why, when a PC breaks a disguise of a heavily and visibly warded Drow, I believe that "What you see is what you get", and the writing that states clearly "Race: Drow", gives that PC the right to follow up with RP.

Glad we agree.

Here's the million dollar question: It takes less Lore or Spot to identify a race than it does to break someone's disguise.

A Drow with 75 bluff is disguised as an elf. Unfortunately, it only takes 20 lore to discern they are an Drow, despite the fact that their 75 bluff is morethan enough to disguise them from a solid 95% of the server. How are you supposed to handle piercing their race when you can otherwise have no clue who they are, despite the fact that race can objectively be altered by the disguise skill? How can you tell someone is a Drow when you don't break their disguise? The disguise is explicitly hiding the fact that they are a Drow. These systems are automated things designed to spit out a result that may or may not actually reflect the situation occuring at the moment, just like how you can magically see a pirate tattoo underneath full plate armor that completely covers the body with chainmail and padding underneath, a tower shield, and a full visorless helm, especially when the tattoos are not facial.

That's a good point, a disguise should shield the race of a character. But again, if WYSIWYG, then the person who sees the writing in the description of an armored man that states their race as "Drow", or a deciphers their tattoos, they have a right to proceed with that RP.

Once again: A black and white reading of the mechanics, for disguises, for tattoos, for races, is not the proper way to do things. You are putting all the blame on the player for attempting to good faith roleplay, while you hide behind a black box with a number on it.

I do personally believe that someone who plays a Drow, or has pirate gang tattoos, and expects to walk the freely without skillpoints to cover their tracks, and relies souly on the good faith of every player they come across is just naive. It would be naive of you to expect that from the UD playerbase and the surface playerbase equally.

There shouldn't be blame given to somebody that goes somewhere they shouldn't in disguise and gets caught, just like there shouldn't be blame on the person catching them. The blame comes afterwards, if either the catcher or the caught act in a way that stifles RP .. and yes, some blame on people who become angered when the skill they made a conscious decision to not invest in ultimately fails them.

[Queen Titania]

I think we should keep discussion on disguise itself elsewhere. I already gave the DM Side of it, and don't want the discussion to steer from discussing mark of the pirate feedback to what is valid for determining race. If you mechanically can, you mechanically can.

[TimeAdept]

DM:

How do you see a tattoo underneath full plate armor that completely covers the body with chainmail and padding underneath, a tower shield, and a full visorless helm, especially when the tattoos are not facial.

Littlefellow is quoting a wiki, and not the actual sourcebooks, so I no longer have an interest talking to him.

[Queen Titania]

DM:

How do you see a tattoo underneath full plate armor that completely covers the body with chainmail and padding underneath, a tower shield, and a full visorless helm, especially when the tattoos are not facial.

Littlefellow is quoting a wiki, and not the actual sourcebooks, so I no longer have an interest talking to him. (This remark isn't necessary, please be nice).

I think we should keep discussion on disguise itself elsewhere. I already gave the DM Side of it, and don't want the discussion to steer from discussing mark of the pirate feedback to what is valid for determining race. If you mechanically can, you mechanically can.

Elaboration: If you are trying to conceal yourself to hide the tattoo, use -disguise. It is up to the Roleplayer if you are not disguising whether they wish to suggest they don't see it or they do if you are not disguising, but a benefit of the doubt philosophy is encouraged, and should be done both ways. If you wish to hide your pirate identity, hide it. Please keep further discussion on feedback, rather than what entails disguising the mark.

[Ork]

I think if you break a disguise, sending a tell quickly that person "hey, so I broke your disguise/spotted your tattoo. How do you want to do this?" is probably the best way to go about it. Make it collaborative. In this way, you're getting the mechanical basis of your character's ability, and also reducing the strain these conflicts tend to have. Spotting and saying, "Ah - ha! I see your tattoo means you're a pirate!" is kind of limp squig RP.