Mark of the Pirate

[BegoneThoth]

There's a difference between perfect disguises and, you know, covering your tattoos physically with a jacket.

[Cortex]

well if this input matters any, ive some scars on my back rl that nobody other than my family really knows about because i tend to wear a shirt in public

[BegoneThoth]

How much disguise do you have?

[A little fellow]

How much disguise do you have?

I’m willing to bet he doesn’t have any, because real life isn’t a video game. And real life doesn’t have a system in place that the video game has, much the same as how the characters in Arelith don’t carry iPhones.

I think all that can be said has been said, you don’t think the disguise/spot/lore systems for judging races should apply to you. Im glad that regardless of this, they do.

[A little fellow]

Just because one thinks their disguise is perfect, doesn't mean it is. I always assumed it should be hard for an elf to impersonate a drow perfectly or vice versa. Since a lot of what the others believe is based on stories and myth. I would suspect if a drow or elf who tried to sneak in and impersonate the other in their society would be rather difficult. Imagine an elf trying to sneak into a drow city and get familiar with drow culture and house structure all the while trying to not act so weird others become suspicious. So maybe you're not pretending to be a normal elf as good as you think. If you spot breaks the disguise, clearly they can rp a reason why. Maybe they are close enough to see in your visor, or maybe there is a few strans of white hair they can see hanging out of your helmet or hood.

I agree. But the very fact that a spot check has pierced a bluff/perform check on your disguise is all the proof you’ll ever need that your disguise isn’t perfect.

[A little fellow]

http://www.d20srd.org/srd/skills/disguise.htm

http://www.d20srd.org/srd/epic/skills.htm#disguise

Disguise explicitly allows you to create full disguises that include eye color, weight, gender, race, and height.

So why are you mad when a disguised Drow's bio reflects this? Especially one covered in Barksin, Stoneskin, Shadowskin, Premonition, Energy Buffer, Imp Invis, full armor with full sleeves and helm?

What exactly is your spot check getting you here?

Height? Elves can be short.

Eye color? I politely dissent, given the above effects - and the fact that, as already quoted above, Drow do not need to have red eyes. they could be blue, purple, green, "Almost any color".

The way they talk? Why are you godgaming and telling someone else how they talk or what their accent is? Are they talking Xanalress? Undercommon? Those I could understand.

Hair? Where, under the full helm?

Since you seem to like this quote....

"A master role player is one who is willing and able to bend their character concept to make the game more enjoyable for all involved. To assist the DM in making the game fun, and not to show discord." - Gary Gygax

Shouldn't the 75 spot having spotlord be willing to look at the situation and understand that it's not always about the raw numbers, but about the cooperative storytelling, and see that there may be nuances to a situation that are absolutely not covered by right clicking someone and seeing Race: Drow or "Pirate Tattoos: Greenhorn"?

I can understand RPing suspicion, or distrust, or feeling that something is off, sure, 100%. Even more if it's a person you've interacted with before, as opposed to Drow We've Never Met (Disguised). But a robotic automatic system ,by design, isn't capable of arbitrating situations beyond the base ruleset it's been programmed to do. It doesn't understand. It falls on us to arbitrate that and act in good faith with the situations we're roleplaying in, and sometimes that can entail ignoring the information the system presents us with.

You are not getting it.

Yes, a person who is disguised CAN change their height, eye colour, voice, hair, and general appearance. Yes, that is true.

But when the disguise is broken by another player they see through it.

By all means, the player who has successfully spotted a disguise can RP however they feel after that point, but if they decide to out your character you cannot tell them the disguise hasn’t been broken and be taken seriously, because it has.

I would welcome players merely RPing suspicion in situations like those. And if the character has broken the disguise of someone they know to be nefarious I support them RPing the outing. But having the servers official stance on disguises be “a f**k tonne of visible wards counts as an unbreakable disguise” is giving players who like to exploit systems EVERYTHING they need to do so.

If it is the general consensus that the bluff/perform/spot/lore systems are to be followed (which they are) then not only is there still potential for the successful disguise breaker to RP the interaction in a subtle and interesting way, but it also keeps exploits out of the hands of people who will exploit it.

I agree it’s not ideal if you would much rather do what you want all the time without consequences, but that’s such a small price to pay in the larger scheme of things.

[Baseili]

This entire debate seems rather redundant considering the pirate mark is uncovered by a lore check, not a spot check, and as such has no interaction with the disguise mechanic. In fact, I'm not sure if using a disguise covers up the tattoo's text on a characters examine sheet so even with a new name and description those literal scarlet letters are still very much on display.

To put this into context, consider that the lore skill is available to every class, is available on rings, potions and wands. That the amount of skill points required to see the mark is only 20 which can be achieved by two rings and a potion, a level 4 bard/harper, a level 10 identify wand, a level 10 character or a combination thereof and is already used for languages and identifying items.
Further compounding the matter is the fact, as far as I'm aware, that the mark cannot be hidden from your character sheet at all and your only defense is to wear full body coverings which depend entirely upon other players to respect/know about. There is no subtly or forewarning to players that the mark is not in full view or knowledge that what they are seeing on the character sheet should not be readily known, a similar issue that was caused by full disclosure of character stats and was ultimately reduced by the team. Yet apparently being easily identified as a pirate was not seen in the same light.

Now Irongron and the team have plans for the various pirate ranks to become meaningful, however it does not detract from the issue at hand; taking the pirate mark is negatively effecting being a pirate. We are easily spotted, have two ships that can actively track pirates by name and have very little to gain or influence by committing acts of piracy. Our actions have zero consequence on the mainland yet we are by far the most easily known, readily identified and mechanically tracked "villians" on Arelith. As I am becoming all to aware of, the deck is stacking against us and a handful of quarters, shops, two rentable boats and a one-time mission writ system is simply not worth it.

((Edit: Altered final sentence, can't speak for the whole crew.))

[Queen Titania]

This entire debate seems rather redundant considering the pirate mark is uncovered by a lore check, not a spot check, and as such has no interaction with the disguise mechanic. In fact, I'm not sure if using a disguise covers up the tattoo's text on a characters examine sheet so even with a new name and description those literal scarlet letters are still very much on display.

To put this into context, consider that the lore skill is available to every class, is available on rings, potions and wands. That the amount of skill points required to see the mark is only 20 which can be achieved by two rings and a potion, a level 4 bard/harper, a level 10 identify wand, a level 10 character or a combination thereof and is already used for languages and identifying items.
Further compounding the matter is the fact, as far as I'm aware, that the mark cannot be hidden from your character sheet at all and your only defense is to wear full body coverings which depend entirely upon other players to respect/know about. There is no subtly or forewarning to players that the mark is not in full view or knowledge that what they are seeing on the character sheet should not be readily known, a similar issue that was caused by full disclosure of character stats and was ultimately reduced by the team. Yet apparently being easily identified as a pirate was not seen in the same light.

Now Irongron and the team have plans for the various pirate ranks to become meaningful, however it does not detract from the issue at hand; taking the pirate mark is negatively effecting being a pirate. We are easily spotted, have two ships that can actively track pirates by name and have very little to gain or influence by committing acts of piracy. Our actions have zero consequence on the mainland yet we are by far the most easily known, readily identified and mechanically tracked "villians" on Arelith. As I am becoming all to aware of, the deck is stacking against us and a handful of quarters, shops, two rentable boats and a one-time mission writ system is simply not worth it.

((Edit: Altered final sentence, can't speak for the whole crew.))

The first part can be tested. If known, it would be very useful to know for clarifying to others who ask.

It should be verified and checked if item bonuses actually count to this lore check (I think it is being assumed). If so, it should be suggested they do not. The scale of difficultly could go nicely with new rank additions, being easier to identity the highest ranks with the current 20, with a requirement of +5 additional lore needed for every rank below them, and impossible at the lowest. I'm not sure how many pirate ranks are being planned, but if there were say 4 with only raw lore points/skill focus feats and bard/harper lore counting, it would be a 20, 25, 30, and impossible threshold, more then fair. Or you could increase this difference by 10.

Finally, what are you actually looking to accomplish in meaningful consequences? "Our actions have zero consequence on the mainland". I think this is a good point of making suggestions from to put into the unlocked suggestion thread. What consequences do you want your actions to do that is fair to the risk you put into them, and will take from it?

I think more so the system is meant as a way of life and the consequences (As they are for every other system similiar, the Radiant Hearts for example) that go to other settlements are RPed out, but introducing some mechanical interaction, such as a loss of a trade resource, could be a possible suggestion.

[Nitro]

I don't much like the recent trend of putting tags in the description box for characters, just feels a bit lazy. Instead of RP'ing and investigating to find out someone is a member of the radiant heart, you just look at their description and go "yep, that's one of them." Sure, you can obscure them with bluff, but it's still just a mechanical check away from being uncovered. What's next, palemaster tags for their bone-arms? Settlement tags?

I'm all for RP having consequences, but what kinda consequence is having a tattoo that someone spots before you even have a chance to do some cool evil/paladiny stuff in character? I'd much rather we have more oblique ways of these things. Merchants that refuse to deal with pirates, maybe the devil transporter doesn't service radiant heart scum, stuff like that instead of just beating a spot check and going "Well, I know you're evil/good now. You're going on my naughty list."

[susitsu]

u spottin tats through barkskin

If someone is determined to argue barkskin blocks all visual tattoos them id simple answer that with realistic out looks the barkskin would also flake over time or be chipped off. The failure of your check is a piece of bark falling off caught on a sword hilt revealing the tattoo.

There should never be a unreasonable god tier cover mechanic.

Wew I needed to note this.

Realistically? It's god damn magic, what the hell are you talking about?

[Queen Titania]

I don't much like the recent trend of putting tags in the description box for characters, just feels a bit lazy. Instead of RP'ing and investigating to find out someone is a member of the radiant heart, you just look at their description and go "yep, that's one of them." Sure, you can obscure them with bluff, but it's still just a mechanical check away from being uncovered. What's next, palemaster tags for their bone-arms? Settlement tags?

I'm all for RP having consequences, but what kinda consequence is having a tattoo that someone spots before you even have a chance to do some cool evil/paladiny stuff in character? I'd much rather we have more oblique ways of these things. Merchants that refuse to deal with pirates, maybe the devil transporter doesn't service radiant heart scum, stuff like that instead of just beating a spot check and going "Well, I know you're evil/good now. You're going on my naughty list."

I sympathize where this sources from, though I do like the idea of lore giving one knowledge of "This person is a notorious Pirate!", and would actually wish a revised lore system applied to such like the Radiant Heart as well. I think that's how the system should better be adjusted to represent, a sort of additional knowledge rewarded by being worldly with your lore on other's reputations and fame. Since the Radiant Heart has ranks (Knights are better known than squires) and the Pirates as well, this could work very well with such a lore system, along with nobility , etc.

[HubertCumberdale]

I like to think that, despite all the wards that can hide all things visually, they're not an absolute even if it is WYSIWYG.

I get that there's a mechanic but it's no excuse to impose features and such on someone's toon. That's just rude and not fun. Period.

When I see through someone's disguise or can tell they're a Drow on the surface, I usually just send a tell about their disguise being broken and how they want my toon to recognize them. Back when races weren't shown during examine, I just played ignorant until the ward wore off or they reveal themselves to be a Drow (or something else). The mechanic is there and should at least be respected. Ideally, the other person would help support the mechanic if you were just upfront about it.

Tattoos can be put in places where no one can spot them regularly (like on one's back and under a jacket) so I just ask if there's some other way I was able to recognize them as a pirate. I'd rather have their consent and tell them they've been found out so they can be more careful the next time around.

Pirates/monster races should be careful around more good-aligned settlements and accept the consequences for being reckless or being found out mechanically. If you're found out, play into it. If not, good on you.

At the end of the day, someone's going to meta and spread meta news claiming they found out about it IG anyway. It just comes with the territory so plan ahead.

[BegoneThoth]

I think whats happening here is classic uncertainty.

For example, if someone has a specific eye color or tattoo location and design, but to not list these in their bio, then they are at rest. However, if someone with high spot comes along and observes the eye color and tattoos, that observation becomes true, but ALSO changes the eye color and tattoo shape because as we all know measuring something changes the result.

So that's whats really happening here when someone uses spot to see through your barkskin-full-helmet disguise and says they know your eyes are red. They're changing what's there by measuring and observing it.

[BegoneThoth]

I sympathize where this sources from, though I do like the idea of lore giving one knowledge of "This person is a notorious Pirate!", and would actually wish a revised lore system applied to such like the Radiant Heart as well. I think that's how the system should better be adjusted to represent, a sort of additional knowledge rewarded by being worldly with your lore on other's reputations and fame. Since the Radiant Heart has ranks (Knights are better known than squires) and the Pirates as well, this could work very well with such a lore system, along with nobility , etc.

@ DM Titania can we get a clarification on the following two posts, is it permitted to examine someone and, since you broke their disguise, invent things that you created to state that you saw through their disguise, such as character height, eye color, equipment descriptions, or other pieces of information that are not in that characters bio?

u spottin tats through barkskin

We get people saying that Drow cannot be discerned from regular Elves when wearing Barkskin all the time, and it is not a good enough excuse then either.

Somebody with the wits (meaning the stats) to tell the difference between an Elf and Drow must be able to regardless of what they are wearing, or the stats put in place for that EXACT reason are useless to everyone who takes them.


Maybe the person recognised the craftsmanship of Drow weapons .. or the accent of a non-native common speaker who’s mother tongue is clearly that of Xanalress .. or knows the smell of UD spores, seldom seen on the surface, which cling to your cloak.

If a Drows bio doesn't state their actual eye colour I wouldn't call it metagaming to assume their eye colour would be that of pretty much every other Drow.

[Baseili]

I agree that being a pirate should be a way of life, one that could eventually lead to infamy and notoriety if taken in that direction. The current system is a bit too on the nose, people can point to the tattoo and scream "dread pirate!" but they can't tell you how they know that, only that their skill check uncovered it.

What I'd like to see consequence wise is a pirates actions being known without it being spoon-fed, a simple notification that a ship bound to a settlement was attacked or as you suggested Titania an impact on trade resources.

Like using a system to report who raided a ship headed to which ever settlement and a general overview of the crew who did it using information from tracking or investigation systems. Give it a chance roll on boarding with another on kill of the captain, have it reported on a board for people to check and a total of ships attacked announced by a crier every week/month.
It could be used in tandem with a more subtle tattoo system, one that puts an actual tattoo on your character's arm chosen at the NPC (left/right, bicep/forearm) rather than on your character sheet and has a 5-10% chance to be reported, appearing in a format like this:

Cordor Ship - (Date) - A heavily armoured human, obviously brawny, tattoo on left forearm.

Granted it doesn't take into account if the tattoo is covered but I reckon the low roll chance could stand in for a sleeve slipping, armour being pulled away or something to that effect.

Being a pirate of Sencliff has the potential to be so much more than a marked lamb for the slaughter. Each pirate ship could have its own port/dock to hold stolen resources which in turn could be sold to settlements or spent to increase that crew's facilities. Owning a pirate ship could require a faction with at least 5 members and captains voted in or out by said crew to prevent them being sat on. Sencliff could be a place where people brave the lawlessness and chaos to visit unregulated markets filled with every kind of illegal good, where hungry rulers hire seadogs to weaken their competition or drive up the prices of goods so they can earn big selling.
How much of it is possible, I honestly couldn't say, but the potential is there.

[DishServedHot2]

@ DM Titania can we get a clarification on the following two posts, is it permitted to examine someone and, since you broke their disguise, invent things that you created to state that you saw through their disguise, such as character height, eye color, equipment descriptions, or other pieces of information that are not in that characters bio?

Ultimately I think the same RP ambiguity also exists with the -investigate system. With -investigate, I can walk up to a broken placeable, and determine how the placeable was broken, and even determine that it was broken by a male vampire wearing medium armor.

I have no idea how my character determined that it was broken by a male vampire. For the purpose of rp, I could make up a story that there were specific signs left behind that obviously meant it was a vampire, but ultimately that's me making up rp ideas that may or may not have happened. Usually I default to just saying 'a preponderance of clues suggests it was a vampire!' which I think is the best way to handle it without knowledge of what actually occurred.

Identifying drow is a very similar system. If somebody makes the skill checks, they somehow know that the character is a drow. The next step I could see is talking with the other player ooc to figure out how they know, but by the mechanics, they already know. I don't think it should be treated any differently than the -investigate system, or both systems and the skills backing them (both to investigate and to block investigation) become useless.

The pirate situation is slightly different as it uses lore instead of spot/search.

The first question that should be asked is if being disguised hides the tattoos.
I could easily help test this in game if someone with pirate tattoos and a decent disguise skill would want to.

If disguise does hide pirate tattoos I don't think there is any problem with the system as it exists? The tattoos are as posted earlier in this thread, a symbol representing your reputation. If you can just disguise yourself as somebody else, then you aren't haunted by your reputation. That way bluff/perform helps you hide that you are a pirate, and should be a skill that pirates pick up if they want to travel without being identified.

If tattoos are a representation of reputation and infamy, people should be able to recognize pirates (who are undisguised), by lore check alone, regardless of what wards and equipment they are wearing. "Hey that's the dread stonefaced pirate who walks around in stoneskin all the time and has sunk a thousand ships!" or the like. The mechanic tells us the result, its up to us to figure out the rp of the result.

If the tattoos are only physical tattoos without any reputation or infamy backing them, then they should be switched to a combination of two skill checks to investigate, like how -investigate uses search and lore. I could see arguments for making the tattoos either search and lore or spot and lore.

So could we also confirm whether or not the tattoos are just tattoos or are a symbol of reputation and infamy?


----
Also jumping back to the discussion of stoneskin and barkskin hiding characters. If they are supposed to be effective at hiding identity, could we make it that they give a bonus to the effective disguise check? That way it is clear that somebody with a high enough spot check might recognize somebody even through stoneskin.

[Blood on my Lips]

@ DM Titania can we get a clarification on the following two posts, is it permitted to examine someone and, since you broke their disguise, invent things that you created to state that you saw through their disguise, such as character height, eye color, equipment descriptions, or other pieces of information that are not in that characters bio?

I'm not a DM, but I think it's pretty obvious that you shouldn't invent information about a character's appearance and equipment that is not detailed in their description. It's similar to god-emoting.

Honestly, if someone has a pirate tattoo on their arm and they are covered in barkskin or wearing long sleeves, you should really go along with the RP and not acknowledge the tattoos even if you did break their disguise. This is one of those things that distinguishes what a good RPer is. If you're the kind of person that insists you have the right to know this information even though the player's arms are completely covered, other people are going to be less inclined to play with you.

[BegoneThoth]

Except in your example there, you get told it was a male vagrant with bludgeoning damage, because that's what happened to the item. How you know it is largely irrelevant because at the end of the day, you know it was a human with bludgeoning damage; that actually happened, and you are not inventing details and forcing them onto people.

What I'm asking about is what 'A little fellow' was doing, in which he invented character/equipment attributes, and pressed them onto players to identify them in lieu of some things in their bio. If you don't list your eye color, he says he will assume they are red and base busting the disguise on red eyes.

It's quite different.

@ DM Titania can we get a clarification on the following two posts, is it permitted to examine someone and, since you broke their disguise, invent things that you created to state that you saw through their disguise, such as character height, eye color, equipment descriptions, or other pieces of information that are not in that characters bio?

I'm not a DM, but I think it's pretty obvious that you shouldn't invent information about a character's appearance and equipment that is not detailed in their description. It's similar to god-emoting.

Honestly, if someone has a pirate tattoo on their arm and they are covered in barkskin or wearing long sleeves, you should really go along with the RP and not acknowledge the tattoos even if you did break their disguise. This is one of those things that distinguishes what a good RPer is. If you're the kind of person that insists you have the right to know this information even though the player's arms are completely covered, other people are going to be less inclined to play with you.

Indeed, but A Little Fellow keeps mentioning new ways to ID things based on spot/lore and character attributes absent from bios, so I want an official DM post so that individual will know if they are in the right or wrong and need to stop.

[DishServedHot2]

I don't disagree with you Begone.
I don't think details should be made up, but the mechanic still exists, and somehow the information was still determined.
That bit either should be decided between the two players involved collaboratively, or should be kept vague. "Yup they looked drowish" or the like.

[BegoneThoth]

Well that's the core issue, how do you see a tattoo through barkskin or shadow shield?

How do you spot a drow fully covered in clothes/gear? I say, you don't, and to RP appropriately.

The sub-race thing, something I was for, previously, im now 100% against, as it's clearly led to god-gaming and meta-gaming.

[Queen Titania]

Well that's the core issue, how do you see a tattoo through barkskin or shadow shield?

How do you spot a drow fully covered in clothes/gear? I say, you don't, and to RP appropriately.

The sub-race thing, something I was for, previously, im now 100% against, as it's clearly led to god-gaming and meta-gaming.

Depends, and this is also where player RP strength can mark a difference between a high RP Rating player and a low one. Neither is wrong:

One playerwho has gained the lore might go through fully covered clothes gear barkskin shadow shield that didn't use disguise "Hey, Pirate Face, keep your parrots squawking down."

Another of the same, might go: "Hey Face, keep your parrots squawking down!" as the interpretation of the same situation due to the same. We would consider this person a stronger Roleplayer /because/ they are allowing this person to get away and aren't really seeking to "win" immediately, letting their pirate secret attempt keeping draw out.

I.E., if you want your contestment against villains to draw out, perhaps giving them the benefit of the doubt is one such tool. Also increases their likelihood. But it's not a rule. It's a RP Rating thing. The villain side may want to disguise, to filter those who see them much more (Though only obviously if actually disguising.) Sometimes its also refreshing not to care, as you'll find quite a few that won't try to stomp you out immediately.

On sub-race identifying, again, say Dwarf meets Duergar who did not disguise for whatever reason that is fully clothed and garbed. Well, the Thane knows that most Duergar are thinner than dwarves, and could immediately make that distinction as their justification. Or take in account their dress, and demand the Duergar physically reveal themselves first. This is, once again, a differing RP style thing that can factor into future RP Rating evaluations. One gives the other side the benefit of the doubt more.

On the question pointed out to me, eye color is no. Height and weight tends to have averages for races and could be assigned by a guesser, so is not an issue, (Though the player could be wrong as the other player may later reveal its full on accuracy). Equipment can be misremembered, but if you never saw them pull out a bow, making it up seems odd unless your character wants to lie.

Anyway, let's keep this discussion to Mark of the Pirate! Looks like it's gone on a tangent.

[BegoneThoth]

On the question pointed out to me, eye color is no. Height and weight tends to have averages for races and could be assigned by a guesser, so is not an issue, (Though the player could be wrong as the other player may later reveal its full on accuracy). Equipment can be misremembered, but if you never saw them pull out a bow, making it up seems odd unless your character wants to lie.

Good to know. Thanks.

[Sab1]

Well that's the core issue, how do you see a tattoo through barkskin or shadow shield?

How do you spot a drow fully covered in clothes/gear? I say, you don't, and to RP appropriately.

The sub-race thing, something I was for, previously, im now 100% against, as it's clearly led to god-gaming and meta-gaming.

In the game realism has to be set aside some, I mean how does a guy I just stabbed in the chest keep fighting? For things like eyes and such, I think it would make sense an elf would assume all drow had evil red eyes and white hair. Since most have never seen a drow and only have stories and tales to go on. But in a world where people have god like strength, superman like vison and hearing, can create a volcano, etc. One has to set aside reality when it comes to some things.
l

[Dr_Hazard89]

Well that's the core issue, how do you see a tattoo through barkskin or shadow shield?

How do you spot a drow fully covered in clothes/gear? I say, you don't, and to RP appropriately.

The sub-race thing, something I was for, previously, im now 100% against, as it's clearly led to god-gaming and meta-gaming.

I agree with this, both for the tattoo and the subraces.

[Rigela]

The simple solution to breaking a disguise seems to just be communicate with the person to see what might be revealed rather than deciding yourself. Include them in it to make it a more fun experience for you both, rather than just you beating them.



As for pirates, perhaps having the lower ranks simply unable to be spotted/recognised by tattoo mark could be something that lets lower levels not just suffer immediately (unless caught actually pirating) and have the higher ones who have done enough to earn a reputation then be spotted/identified. It lets lower levels not immediately suffer due to having no way to actually beat the high level guards they will encounter while still having a possibility if they are caught at sea pirating and the higher level ones, or those who have done enough pirating to earn a big reputation, can actually attempt to hide if they so feel like it.