Mark of the Pirate

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BegoneThoth
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Re: Mark of the Pirate

Post by BegoneThoth » Sun Apr 22, 2018 2:58 pm

A little fellow wrote:
Sun Apr 22, 2018 10:06 am
BegoneThoth wrote:
Sun Apr 22, 2018 3:48 am
u spottin tats through barkskin :?:
We get people saying that Drow cannot be discerned from regular Elves when wearing Barkskin all the time, and it is not a good enough excuse then either.

Somebody with the wits (meaning the stats) to tell the difference between an Elf and Drow must be able to regardless of what they are wearing, or the stats put in place for that EXACT reason are useless to everyone who takes them.


Maybe the person recognised the craftsmanship of Drow weapons .. or the accent of a non-native common speaker who’s mother tongue is clearly that of Xanalress .. or knows the smell of UD spores, seldom seen on the surface, which cling to your cloak.

The only difference is that now legitimately questionable characters with pirate tattoos are MUCH more frequently trying to insert themselves into certain situations they would not likely be afforded if their allegiances were common knowledge, when compared to “evil” races.

And more power to them, but there must be a counter balance, and that counter balance is the stats that you choose over others which help you spot these things. A counter, counter balance to theses stats is not to send a tell saying that the other player is meta-gaming ..

If RP is born from chance interactions of two or more characters, each with there their own goals, morals and memories, then stopping everything to accuse somebody who is playing legitimately within the rules is the very definition of being against RP.
Well, what can I say. If you want to spot racial differences and tattoos through spell effects that completely alter the look of the character, feel free.

Not I, though. Feels like munchkin shit.
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Baseili
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Re: Mark of the Pirate

Post by Baseili » Sun Apr 22, 2018 3:43 pm

A little fellow wrote:
Sun Apr 22, 2018 1:28 pm
As Irongron said, the tattoos are a sign of loyalty and a source of intimidation (would be cool if the tattoos have a boost to the intimidation skill).

But whilst I agree that every person with tattoos shouldn’t automatically be subjected to PvP, or fines, or imprisonment ... the life of a pirate should not be a comfy one either. The characters are and should be played as though they are degenerates.
That maybe the intention but in reality the marks are more often than not used as targets.

Take the example you posted earlier regarding intruders; a single character, quite literally surrounded by pirates, was not intimidated or discouraged by their tattoos in the slightest and prompty attacked. Well within their rights to do so of course but still demonstrates how the mark is only used against the pirate.

As for loyalty to Sencliff, how and why would that be known by a populace whose majority of time on ship is travel rather than sailing? I find it hard to believe that a group who actively murders any traitor, muntineer or deserter has been studied to such great detail as to make every tattoo a clear indication of allegiance and rank.

The life of a pirate should be dictated by the actions of the pirate, not some mechanical billboard on the bottom of the character info.

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A little fellow
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Re: Mark of the Pirate

Post by A little fellow » Sun Apr 22, 2018 4:20 pm

BegoneThoth wrote:
Sun Apr 22, 2018 2:58 pm
Well, what can I say. If you want to spot racial differences and tattoos through spell effects that completely alter the look of the character, feel free.

Not I, though. Feels like munchkin shit.
I don't know what "munchkin shit" means, but I'll assume it's a negative. Whilst I'll agree tattoos is harder to explain, if your position is that all you need to walk around the surface lands and settlements is barkskin .. I'm comfortable in assuming you are very much in the minority.

If you think the only difference a Drow has with Wild, Sun, Wood and Moon Elves is their skin colour ... that is a much bigger problem than being frustrated that you failed a skill DC.
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BegoneThoth
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Re: Mark of the Pirate

Post by BegoneThoth » Sun Apr 22, 2018 6:07 pm

I'm not policing any RP here. Do what you want.

Though to me it seems a bit munchkiny to assume you know things about a character that are clearly hidden.

I personally wouldn't do that to someone, as you mentioned earlier;
Maybe the person recognised the craftsmanship of Drow weapons .. or the accent of a non-native common speaker who’s mother tongue is clearly that of Xanalress .. or knows the smell of UD spores, seldom seen on the surface, which cling to your cloak.
If these things arnt being emoted, I certainly would not claim to be able to identify them IC.
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Rebel4ever
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Re: Mark of the Pirate

Post by Rebel4ever » Sun Apr 22, 2018 6:16 pm

If you wear clothes you can cover a tattoo but if you go around showing it off with bare arms then people will see it. You just need a lore check to id it.
Image

Gods_Kill_People
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Re: Mark of the Pirate

Post by Gods_Kill_People » Sun Apr 22, 2018 6:18 pm

Other things to note, Drow are literally smaller then other elves, namely due to living in caves. If drow are on the surface and disguised as a Elven Sentinel (which for note I HAVE seen and gone along with due to failed breaking bluff check) If they can bluff it, GREAT, thats great rp....but if I break his disguise...and it tells me hey...its a drow....ICLY I know this is NOT an elven Sentienel infront of me and your damn right my char is ICly gonna act on it, either in noting the height is entirely wrong for an elf, something is just slightly off in how he speaks common/elven. These things do count.

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Re: Mark of the Pirate

Post by LemonBerry » Tue Apr 24, 2018 6:56 pm

Gods_Kill_People wrote:
Sun Apr 22, 2018 6:18 pm
Other things to note, Drow are literally smaller then other elves, namely due to living in caves. If drow are on the surface and disguised as a Elven Sentinel (which for note I HAVE seen and gone along with due to failed breaking bluff check) If they can bluff it, GREAT, thats great rp....but if I break his disguise...and it tells me hey...its a drow....ICLY I know this is NOT an elven Sentienel infront of me and your damn right my char is ICly gonna act on it, either in noting the height is entirely wrong for an elf, something is just slightly off in how he speaks common/elven. These things do count.
Agreed.

The red eyes tend to be the telltale sign too! oh wait! i feel an arguement that barksin and stoneskin covers the eyes coming on... Guess it's Munchkin magic that we are not colour blind and can tell the difference of a clear racial feature and allowed to use it thanks to those handy spot checks that tell us we notice it.

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A little fellow
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Re: Mark of the Pirate

Post by A little fellow » Tue Apr 24, 2018 7:49 pm

LemonBerry wrote:
Tue Apr 24, 2018 6:56 pm
Gods_Kill_People wrote:
Sun Apr 22, 2018 6:18 pm
Other things to note, Drow are literally smaller then other elves, namely due to living in caves. If drow are on the surface and disguised as a Elven Sentinel (which for note I HAVE seen and gone along with due to failed breaking bluff check) If they can bluff it, GREAT, thats great rp....but if I break his disguise...and it tells me hey...its a drow....ICLY I know this is NOT an elven Sentienel infront of me and your damn right my char is ICly gonna act on it, either in noting the height is entirely wrong for an elf, something is just slightly off in how he speaks common/elven. These things do count.
Agreed.

The red eyes tend to be the telltale sign too! oh wait! i feel an arguement that barksin and stoneskin covers the eyes coming on... Guess it's Munchkin magic that we are not colour blind and can tell the difference of a clear racial feature and allowed to use it thanks to those handy spot checks that tell us we notice it.

Mhmm. It's not called Barkeyes.

Drow also have white hair. It is also not called Barkhair.

And the picture to accompany the Forgotten Realms Wiki page on Barkskin actually shows an Elf with skin coloured skin, but a bark texture. Which gives a possible explanation for how tattoos could be visible beneath it ..

Image

Those are munchkin details though.
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BegoneThoth
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Re: Mark of the Pirate

Post by BegoneThoth » Tue Apr 24, 2018 8:17 pm

I tend to go with what I see in game as far as appearances go as it tends to be the right answer, rather then some art from a wiki.

For example, how can you see eyes through a full face helm? How can you see hair through a proper helm? How can you see eyes when the entire body is obscured by bark as you see in game?
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LemonBerry
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Re: Mark of the Pirate

Post by LemonBerry » Tue Apr 24, 2018 8:54 pm

Spot Check Success!
Image
*moonlight shines through the clouds at just the right angle, and the wrong head tilt to reveal blood red eyes in the face of the DROW!*
(personally i prefer a light gleam of a blade at the wrong time...)

Still main point is the people crossing over to pirate side to be able to reveal rather than leaving it up to any check at all! Diverting the Topic BACK on task!

Requirements to be a pirate is a good stance 20 rpr? , making any 'good' character morally questionable on a serious level.
Last edited by LemonBerry on Tue Apr 24, 2018 9:00 pm, edited 2 times in total.

TimeAdept
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Re: Mark of the Pirate

Post by TimeAdept » Tue Apr 24, 2018 8:59 pm

Why is Pirate such a sacred thing that it requires a certain RPR, now?

The problem is the tattoos not being treated as they such, and being ramapntly seen despite IG attempts to create a cooperative vs. adversarial atmosphere, not the fact that 10 RPR people can be Pirates.

PS: If we're diving into Fr books and using lore vs Arelith's very WYSIWYG policy:
Drow eyes were usually bright red, but some had different colored, often much paler eyes such as blue, lilac, pink and silver[14] - these pale eyes were often so pale that they appeared to be white - [15] in fact, their eye color could be of practically any color.[17]
Are you assuming all Drow have red eyes, now?

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Re: Mark of the Pirate

Post by LemonBerry » Tue Apr 24, 2018 9:04 pm

Honestly, i find it kin to Palemaster. Palemaster has a 20RPB Requirement.

I say this becuase like palemaster an understanding needs to be established and premesis for the task and concequences of that character. A degree of understanding towards mehcanics and risks like monster races that also require the 20RPB or epic sacrifice.

But, i also think that the tattoo's are being worked on, for example the dms have made newer pirates harder to see so they can delay untill they get the necessary skill checks to remain safe when not notoriously pillaging ships with a crew.

as for the eyes, they commonly have red.
Last edited by LemonBerry on Tue Apr 24, 2018 9:09 pm, edited 1 time in total.

TimeAdept
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Re: Mark of the Pirate

Post by TimeAdept » Tue Apr 24, 2018 9:08 pm

Palemaster is entirely different from a pirate.

One is a basic trope in RL history and fantasy and exists in a billion different forms and ways across all alignments and races and types of people.

The other is a hyper specific arcane undead focused class with specific lore and requirements that pretty much pigeon hole you intoa specific line of RP, "My Left Arm Is A Golem Arm, No Really" aside.

I don't think PM should require 20 RPR either: DM filter should be plenty.
as for the eyes, they commonly have red.
if a drow's bio does not declare eye color are you metagaming and saying their eyes are red

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Re: Mark of the Pirate

Post by LemonBerry » Tue Apr 24, 2018 9:17 pm

TimeAdept wrote:
Tue Apr 24, 2018 9:08 pm
Palemaster is entirely different from a pirate.

One is a basic trope in RL history and fantasy and exists in a billion different forms and ways across all alignments and races and types of people.

The other is a hyper specific arcane undead focused class with specific lore and requirements that pretty much pigeon hole you intoa specific line of RP, "My Left Arm Is A Golem Arm, No Really" aside.

I don't think PM should require 20 RPR either: DM filter should be plenty.
as for the eyes, they commonly have red.
if a drow's bio does not declare eye color are you metagaming and saying their eyes are red

Okay, so firstly the red eyes was an example of how barkskin is'nt a plasuable excuse to invalidate a spot vs disguise/perform check feel free to insert any explaination you need as to why a character that succeeded a skill check glimpsed something to let them know something is'nt right or identify them based of past encounters.

Secondly, the RP type fundimentally is the same between the two as well as in monster races as to the innevitable outcome of discovery, confrontational roleplay and potential exile.

This requires an acceptance of it, the 20rpb has always proved as an effective yet at the same time admitedly unrealiable gate due to the fact that dm's simply cannot be everywhere and the issueing of RPB is a tough task for them and takes time.

But still the 20RPB is just my personal opinion and am glad to see someone disagree's.

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A little fellow
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Re: Mark of the Pirate

Post by A little fellow » Tue Apr 24, 2018 9:20 pm

TimeAdept wrote:
Tue Apr 24, 2018 9:08 pm
Palemaster is entirely different from a pirate.

One is a basic trope in RL history and fantasy and exists in a billion different forms and ways across all alignments and races and types of people.

The other is a hyper specific arcane undead focused class with specific lore and requirements that pretty much pigeon hole you intoa specific line of RP, "My Left Arm Is A Golem Arm, No Really" aside.

I don't think PM should require 20 RPR either: DM filter should be plenty.
as for the eyes, they commonly have red.
if a drow's bio does not declare eye color are you metagaming and saying their eyes are red

If a Drows bio doesn't state their actual eye colour I wouldn't call it metagaming to assume their eye colour would be that of pretty much every other Drow. If they truly wish a rare eye colour other than red, the onus is on them to make that clear in their bio.

But that is kind of getting away from the point. The point is that if you succeed a spot/lore check and figure out they are a Drow, you can pick a reason which made this evident to your character, regardless of helms, barkskins, the fact that they for some reason speak faultless common, or if they share none of the features that the overwhelming majority of their Kin share. (I would advise anyone to choose a reason that is consistent with what you see in game, but I also would advise the person who failed the check to be courteous and accept that reason)
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BegoneThoth
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Re: Mark of the Pirate

Post by BegoneThoth » Tue Apr 24, 2018 10:55 pm

It's like playing whack-a-mole with features.

Weapons that looks 'drow'
Hair color in bio
Walking like a 'drow'
Eye color in bio
Armor that looks 'drow'

At what point does it end?
But that is kind of getting away from the point. The point is that if you succeed a spot/lore check and figure out they are a Drow, you can pick a reason which made this evident
No, you can't, because inventing incorrect details about another persons character and using it to finger them is horrible, horrible RP.
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A little fellow
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Re: Mark of the Pirate

Post by A little fellow » Tue Apr 24, 2018 11:53 pm

BegoneThoth wrote:
Tue Apr 24, 2018 10:55 pm
It's like playing whack-a-mole with features.

Weapons that looks 'drow'
Hair color in bio
Walking like a 'drow'
Eye color in bio
Armor that looks 'drow'

At what point does it end?
But that is kind of getting away from the point. The point is that if you succeed a spot/lore check and figure out they are a Drow, you can pick a reason which made this evident
No, you can't, because inventing incorrect details about another persons character and using it to finger them is horrible, horrible RP.
Well I mean, it is supposed to end at the point where somebody successfully uses Spot/Lore to attain vital information about a character who is attempting to hide it. Which is ..

A) How it is done
B) How it should be done
C) What I am in favour of
D) What you are seemingly against

As for claims of "horrible, horrible RP". I'll remind you of this ..

"A master role player is one who is willing and able to bend their character concept to make the game more enjoyable for all involved. To assist the DM in making the game fun, and not to show discord." - Gary Gygax

I would say being unwilling to give an inch when you have been caught out, is the polar opposite of good roleplay. Trying to get your own way despite losing the roll is what a child might do (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=euPiKKMsR8E) isn't it? I'd go so far as to say it is completely unfair that somebody who has invested their skillpoints into skills that counter these efforts could be stifled by somebody who not only doesn't want to play a back and forth exchange with them, but would much rather put their skillpoints into ensuring they have an optimal PvP build, rather than on bluff or perform.
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Cortex
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Re: Mark of the Pirate

Post by Cortex » Wed Apr 25, 2018 12:01 am

spot is a pvp skill though
:)

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A little fellow
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Re: Mark of the Pirate

Post by A little fellow » Wed Apr 25, 2018 12:11 am

Cortex wrote:
Wed Apr 25, 2018 12:01 am
spot is a pvp skill though
Point remains. If you want to counter somebodys spot check, invest in bluff/perform rather than trying to argue that their skill checks aren't legitimate for no other reason than that you didn't want to get caught ... which is something many an optimal PvP build cannot afford to do.
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BegoneThoth
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Re: Mark of the Pirate

Post by BegoneThoth » Wed Apr 25, 2018 12:13 am

A little fellow wrote:
Tue Apr 24, 2018 11:53 pm
BegoneThoth wrote:
Tue Apr 24, 2018 10:55 pm
It's like playing whack-a-mole with features.

Weapons that looks 'drow'
Hair color in bio
Walking like a 'drow'
Eye color in bio
Armor that looks 'drow'

At what point does it end?
But that is kind of getting away from the point. The point is that if you succeed a spot/lore check and figure out they are a Drow, you can pick a reason which made this evident
No, you can't, because inventing incorrect details about another persons character and using it to finger them is horrible, horrible RP.
Well I mean, it is supposed to end at the point where somebody successfully uses Spot/Lore to attain vital information about a character who is attempting to hide it. Which is ..

A) How it is done
B) How it should be done
C) What I am in favour of
D) What you are seemingly against

As for claims of "horrible, horrible RP". I'll remind you of this ..

"A master role player is one who is willing and able to bend their character concept to make the game more enjoyable for all involved. To assist the DM in making the game fun, and not to show discord." - Gary Gygax

I would say being unwilling to give an inch when you have been caught out, is the polar opposite of good roleplay. Trying to get your own way despite losing the roll is what a child might do (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=euPiKKMsR8E) isn't it? I'd go so far as to say it is completely unfair that somebody who has invested their skillpoints into skills that counter these efforts could be stifled by somebody who not only doesn't want to play a back and forth exchange with them, but would much rather put their skillpoints into ensuring they have an optimal PvP build, rather than on bluff or perform.
I'm not changing my eye color because you rolled high spot and shouted about how I apparently have red eyes. That's not an example of me being inflexible it's you god-gaming.

Come on now.

edit; you can get bluff and spot on plenty of pvp builds and have points to spare on other fluff skills.
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A little fellow
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Re: Mark of the Pirate

Post by A little fellow » Wed Apr 25, 2018 12:18 am

BegoneThoth wrote:
Wed Apr 25, 2018 12:13 am
A little fellow wrote:
Tue Apr 24, 2018 11:53 pm
BegoneThoth wrote:
Tue Apr 24, 2018 10:55 pm
It's like playing whack-a-mole with features.

Weapons that looks 'drow'
Hair color in bio
Walking like a 'drow'
Eye color in bio
Armor that looks 'drow'

At what point does it end?



No, you can't, because inventing incorrect details about another persons character and using it to finger them is horrible, horrible RP.
Well I mean, it is supposed to end at the point where somebody successfully uses Spot/Lore to attain vital information about a character who is attempting to hide it. Which is ..

A) How it is done
B) How it should be done
C) What I am in favour of
D) What you are seemingly against

As for claims of "horrible, horrible RP". I'll remind you of this ..

"A master role player is one who is willing and able to bend their character concept to make the game more enjoyable for all involved. To assist the DM in making the game fun, and not to show discord." - Gary Gygax

I would say being unwilling to give an inch when you have been caught out, is the polar opposite of good roleplay. Trying to get your own way despite losing the roll is what a child might do (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=euPiKKMsR8E) isn't it? I'd go so far as to say it is completely unfair that somebody who has invested their skillpoints into skills that counter these efforts could be stifled by somebody who not only doesn't want to play a back and forth exchange with them, but would much rather put their skillpoints into ensuring they have an optimal PvP build, rather than on bluff or perform.
I'm not changing my eye color because you rolled high spot and shouted about how I apparently have red eyes. That's not an example of me being inflexible it's you god-gaming.

Come on now.

edit; you can get bluff and spot on plenty of pvp builds and have points to spare on other fluff skills.

This .. isn't .. about .. red .. eyes.

It is about making a spot check, succeeding in the spot check, and being able to RP the findings. God-gaming is saying that the rules that are in place do not matter because you don't want it to happen.

The eyes, hair, height, speech were all examples of how a capable character might tell a disguised Drow is actually a Drow. That is all.
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Re: Mark of the Pirate

Post by TimeAdept » Wed Apr 25, 2018 12:36 am

Why does your skill check mean you get to tell someone else how they're RPing, including physical descriptions of their character that may not be true?

It comes down to "winning" vs acknowledging that a hardcoded system of rolling a dice may not account for the current actual situation, much like how a tattoo note in someone's bio may not reflect the fact that they're currently covered in spells, in armor, helmed, etc etc.

Isn't this the exact argument behind why we don't include dice rolls and dice bags in the game?

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A little fellow
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Re: Mark of the Pirate

Post by A little fellow » Wed Apr 25, 2018 1:02 am

TimeAdept wrote:
Wed Apr 25, 2018 12:36 am
Why does your skill check mean you get to tell someone else how they're RPing, including physical descriptions of their character that may not be true?

It comes down to "winning" vs acknowledging that a hardcoded system of rolling a dice may not account for the current actual situation, much like how a tattoo note in someone's bio may not reflect the fact that they're currently covered in spells, in armor, helmed, etc etc.

Isn't this the exact argument behind why we don't include dice rolls and dice bags in the game?
Because there are skills in place for certain situations which determines the foundations that the RP is built upon. You are suggesting that the only thing a Drow needs to walk the surface is a Barkskin and a few spell effects, I’m comfortable saying you’re in the minority.

You know why? Because there’s a series of skills and checks dedicated to simulating the creating and breaking of disguises.

If you are sneaking behind enemy lines and somebody has a high enough listen skill to catch you, do you lambast them for hindering your RP and go about it as though nothing happened? I didn’t think so.


A smaller point I’ll make is that somebody making a Drow with no discernible Drow features (such as height, speech, hair, red eyes) merely so they can be “special”, or god forbid, so they can be intentionally difficult in situations where their disguise is broken, is absolutely not what Arelith needs.
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TimeAdept
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Re: Mark of the Pirate

Post by TimeAdept » Wed Apr 25, 2018 1:13 am

http://www.d20srd.org/srd/skills/disguise.htm

http://www.d20srd.org/srd/epic/skills.htm#disguise

Disguise explicitly allows you to create full disguises that include eye color, weight, gender, race, and height.

So why are you mad when a disguised Drow's bio reflects this? Especially one covered in Barksin, Stoneskin, Shadowskin, Premonition, Energy Buffer, Imp Invis, full armor with full sleeves and helm?

What exactly is your spot check getting you here?

Height? Elves can be short.

Eye color? I politely dissent, given the above effects - and the fact that, as already quoted above, Drow do not need to have red eyes. they could be blue, purple, green, "Almost any color".

The way they talk? Why are you godgaming and telling someone else how they talk or what their accent is? Are they talking Xanalress? Undercommon? Those I could understand.

Hair? Where, under the full helm?

Since you seem to like this quote....
"A master role player is one who is willing and able to bend their character concept to make the game more enjoyable for all involved. To assist the DM in making the game fun, and not to show discord." - Gary Gygax
Shouldn't the 75 spot having spotlord be willing to look at the situation and understand that it's not always about the raw numbers, but about the cooperative storytelling, and see that there may be nuances to a situation that are absolutely not covered by right clicking someone and seeing Race: Drow or "Pirate Tattoos: Greenhorn"?

I can understand RPing suspicion, or distrust, or feeling that something is off, sure, 100%. Even more if it's a person you've interacted with before, as opposed to Drow We've Never Met (Disguised). But a robotic automatic system ,by design, isn't capable of arbitrating situations beyond the base ruleset it's been programmed to do. It doesn't understand. It falls on us to arbitrate that and act in good faith with the situations we're roleplaying in, and sometimes that can entail ignoring the information the system presents us with.

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Re: Mark of the Pirate

Post by Sab1 » Wed Apr 25, 2018 2:44 am

Just because one thinks their disguise is perfect, doesn't mean it is. I always assumed it should be hard for an elf to impersonate a drow perfectly or vice versa. Since a lot of what the others believe is based on stories and myth. I would suspect if a drow or elf who tried to sneak in and impersonate the other in their society would be rather difficult. Imagine an elf trying to sneak into a drow city and get familiar with drow culture and house structure all the while trying to not act so weird others become suspicious. So maybe you're not pretending to be a normal elf as good as you think. If you spot breaks the disguise, clearly they can rp a reason why. Maybe they are close enough to see in your visor, or maybe there is a few strans of white hair they can see hanging out of your helmet or hood.

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