Mark of the Pirate

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Queen Titania
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Re: Mark of the Pirate

Post by Queen Titania » Wed Apr 18, 2018 5:42 pm

Two things of note:

1: Should be more difficult to read if someone low level is a pirate as of latest update.

2: For all of these claims of Metagaming, I do not see one report about it in our inbox.
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Ridiculously Circuitous Plans
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Re: Mark of the Pirate

Post by Ridiculously Circuitous Plans » Wed Apr 18, 2018 5:48 pm

Well, I'm not sure if the new update really did anything as far as making it more difficult to identify low ranked pirates. My character is currently a Greenhorn, and an associate of his can see his tattoos with around 10ish lore, apparently.

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Re: Mark of the Pirate

Post by Dr_Hazard89 » Wed Apr 18, 2018 10:07 pm

Dragonovith wrote:
Wed Apr 18, 2018 5:04 pm
Dr_Hazard89 wrote:
Wed Apr 18, 2018 8:55 am
Forearm is covered, yet I can see the tattoo?
Here's a suggestion. When I interact with a pirate character, I usually send them a tell asking if their tattoo is currently visible and not hidden by their armor or a piece of clothing.
I do that.
Sab1 wrote:
Wed Apr 18, 2018 5:35 pm
Dr_Hazard89 wrote:
Wed Apr 18, 2018 8:55 am
Yep. Too much metagaming going on. This needs to be removed from descriptions.

Forearm is covered, yet I can see the tattoo? It's taking agency away from players and only diminishes RP while offering nothing.

Good idea, but not working.
But the if forearm covered then not even pirates should be able to see it.
I agree.
Sockss wrote:
Wed Apr 18, 2018 5:37 pm
I hope it stays, I like actions having consequences.
Me too, but not if it involves metagaming.
DM Titania wrote:
Wed Apr 18, 2018 5:42 pm
Two things of note:

1: Should be more difficult to read if someone low level is a pirate as of latest update.

2: For all of these claims of Metagaming, I do not see one report about it in our inbox.
Maybe no one is reporting it because they're not confident it's cheating. I've heard people say "What you see is what you get." I'll report it for others, if I see it happen. I don't have a pirate or a character that hunts pirates.
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Re: Mark of the Pirate

Post by Sab1 » Wed Apr 18, 2018 10:12 pm

I mean if joining to get a mark is allowed, is it really metagaming if you don't wish to pirate? Since nothing says once you have the mark you have to pirate. Which is why the suggestions that things need to change so getting the mark has meaning.

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Re: Mark of the Pirate

Post by Dr_Hazard89 » Wed Apr 18, 2018 10:16 pm

Sab1 wrote:
Wed Apr 18, 2018 10:12 pm
I mean if joining to get a mark is allowed, is it really metagaming if you don't wish to pirate? Since nothing says once you have the mark you have to pirate. Which is why the suggestions that things need to change so getting the mark has meaning.
Maybe to get the mark there can be a little quest, like .. Kill an innocent man out at sea, or something. So that there aren't any "pirates" that aren't actually pirates.

I didn't think very long or hard on that one. Maybe other people have a better idea that involves less work.
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Re: Mark of the Pirate

Post by Sab1 » Wed Apr 18, 2018 10:21 pm

That' what I thought, do a couple of writs to prove your worth. So if someone says I just got it to spy then they have to admit well I did have to also rob a few folks etc.. to get it myself. Or if don't do writs every month or so you lose the mark. Only issue with the writs before is with only needing a 20 lore they would spot a pirate and it would quickly become known ig you have to rob people or kill someone just to get the mark so more likely to immedietly get in trouble as soon as outed. So maybe losing mark after 1 month of no writs might be a better idea,

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Re: Mark of the Pirate

Post by Bozonicus » Wed Apr 18, 2018 10:27 pm

"I hope it stays, I like actions having consequences."

We like consequences made possible by roleplay. Having pre-buffed gank squads spot pirate tattoos from miles away and under clothing with their x-ray vision for PvP reasons, is hardly roleplaying. Citizens SHOULD DESPISE PIRATES as they're selfish murderers. But we need to solve this conflict between visible information and metainformation for the sake of fair roleplaying.

If I dress up as a guard and stand still attracting zero attention, are you going to run up to me and attack me for being a pirate? How does your character see tattoos under several layers of steel?
Last edited by Bozonicus on Thu Apr 19, 2018 3:41 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Mark of the Pirate

Post by Queen Titania » Thu Apr 19, 2018 1:36 pm

This was adjusted so low levels would not have to worry about "gank squads".

Higher ranked pirates have gained notoriety, so being recognized and careless in civilization is something to be wary about. The tattoo needs to be seen not as a tattoo, but as the game-ish way of saying "Hey, this character has notoriety, you might have heard of them being a pirate!" this is why it is tied to lore. The tattoo is just the simple justification. Is it super perfect and immersive? Not in every case, because the medium is a game, so it will always fall short of being super realistic.

So really it needs to be seen as a notoriety thing, and less focused on it being this weird mark that calls you out, but your own actions that do it.

Having any system work is going to take a combination of players on both sides having solid conduct. Is everyone on either side going to be super high quality RPers? Not all the time, particularly newer ones. The responsibility on both sides is to be able to take the high road when minor mistakes are made and encourage better behavior through their own.

The other responsibility for having a better environment is to report instances where poor sportsmanship is a concern, though there is a difference between a fear of happening and actually happening.

But I think the main concern of "gank squads" on lower level/starting out pirates was fixed. If the concern is how this is handled on a sportsmanship level, I think this falls more in line in regulated player behavior over system mechanics.
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Re: Mark of the Pirate

Post by Ork » Thu Apr 19, 2018 2:43 pm

I always have issues where there's a gamey mechanic that supersedes roleplay. So what if your character has a tattoo of notoriety or has a noble background or epic reputation - if you haven't put in the work to earn that fame, it seems very shallow.

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Re: Mark of the Pirate

Post by BegoneThoth » Thu Apr 19, 2018 3:09 pm

It's essentially a scarlet letter.
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Re: Mark of the Pirate

Post by ForgottenBhaal » Thu Apr 19, 2018 3:54 pm

Does this mean we can look forward to marks on outcasts which makes it easier to spot them as well?

*EDIT*
To clarify what I mean by that: It appears that one of the many reasons why the pirate mark is visible to people, is that there is a wish to be able to identify these swashbucklers and nip them in the bud (or at the least have an clear target). Would it not make sense to add a similar system to outcasts, which would by any point be on the same level of 'vileness' as a pirate in this case?

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Re: Mark of the Pirate

Post by Poolbrain » Thu Apr 19, 2018 4:05 pm

DM Titania wrote:
Thu Apr 19, 2018 1:36 pm
This was adjusted so low levels would not have to worry about "gank squads".

Higher ranked pirates have gained notoriety, so being recognized and careless in civilization is something to be wary about. The tattoo needs to be seen not as a tattoo, but as the game-ish way of saying "Hey, this character has notoriety, you might have heard of them being a pirate!" this is why it is tied to lore. The tattoo is just the simple justification. Is it super perfect and immersive? Not in every case, because the medium is a game, so it will always fall short of being super realistic.

So really it needs to be seen as a notoriety thing, and less focused on it being this weird mark that calls you out, but your own actions that do it.

Having any system work is going to take a combination of players on both sides having solid conduct. Is everyone on either side going to be super high quality RPers? Not all the time, particularly newer ones. The responsibility on both sides is to be able to take the high road when minor mistakes are made and encourage better behavior through their own.

The other responsibility for having a better environment is to report instances where poor sportsmanship is a concern, though there is a difference between a fear of happening and actually happening.

But I think the main concern of "gank squads" on lower level/starting out pirates was fixed. If the concern is how this is handled on a sportsmanship level, I think this falls more in line in regulated player behavior over system mechanics.
This then need to be informed in a good way, that it's not the tattoo that makes other people identify the pirates but their appearance and identity that has gotten spread out somehow.

As it is now, it's inviting metagaming and makes a lot of player frustrated.

I have a feeling you're taking a rather defensive stance to the issue but the fact is we are representing the majority of the current Sencliff playerbase. We are spending a lot of time in this game and in communication with each other.

I'd take this feedback seriously instead of explaining to us how we are supposed to adapt and relate to it, because then that's something that needs to be carefully explained to every player who starts playing with us.

I think it's easier to change the design in itself so that people don't get information that they shouldn't have. Or make it very clear that you will be recognized very easily as a pirate unless you disguise your whole identity.

At the moment the current system is making some people want to leave.

-----

If you want reports and so on, we can try to arrange this. But it can be anything from a player you've never seen before walks by and makes a comment about your coated character being a sailor to low-levels getting harassed.

When this stuff happens you usually just wants to get on with the game rather than putting more time in effort in the bad sides of it. We are however communicating this to you (the developer side) now in this thread.

Let's finish on a good note: Sencliff is still lot of fun! We are having a great time recruiting and bringing new people into the RP! Probably some of my best experiences so far with NWN :-) Cheers!

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Re: Mark of the Pirate

Post by BegoneThoth » Thu Apr 19, 2018 4:07 pm

I still think it's a travesty that there is no ownable ship on the pirate island.

I can't think of a single pirate in fiction that didn't own a ship and wasn't constantly lampooned for it, because a pirate with no ship is a joke.

"Yes I'm Dread Pirate Thoth, I don't own a ship, but you had better believe I take out the rental whenever somebody else isn't using it!"

I don't really understand why the liberator went public or why more ships wern't added.

These two aspects pretty much killed the pirate update for me, not being able to own a ship and being instantly identifiable everywhere by 'greenhorns' that may have never even interacted with you.
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Re: Mark of the Pirate

Post by BegoneThoth » Thu Apr 19, 2018 4:08 pm

Also, is it even metagaming to take pirate tattoos to ID other pirates?

I don't think it is or know how it could be.
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Re: Mark of the Pirate

Post by Queen Titania » Thu Apr 19, 2018 4:22 pm

Poolbrain wrote:
Thu Apr 19, 2018 4:05 pm

This then need to be informed in a good way, that it's not the tattoo that makes other people identify the pirates but their appearance and identity that has gotten spread out somehow.

As it is now, it's inviting metagaming and makes a lot of player frustrated.

I have a feeling you're taking a rather defensive stance to the issue but the fact is we are representing the majority of the current Sencliff playerbase. We are spending a lot of time in this game and in communication with each other.

I'd take this feedback seriously instead of explaining to us how we are supposed to adapt and relate to it, because then that's something that needs to be carefully explained to every player who starts playing with us.

I think it's easier to change the design in itself so that people don't get information that they shouldn't have. Or make it very clear that you will be recognized very easily as a pirate unless you disguise your whole identity.

At the moment the current system is making some people want to leave.

-----

If you want reports and so on, we can try to arrange this. But it can be anything from a player you've never seen before walks by and makes a comment about your coated character being a sailor to low-levels getting harassed.

When this stuff happens you usually just wants to get on with the game rather than putting more time in effort in the bad sides of it. We are however communicating this to you (the developer side) now in this thread.

Let's finish on a good note: Sencliff is still lot of fun! We are having a great time recruiting and bringing new people into the RP! Probably some of my best experiences so far with NWN :-) Cheers!
I'm not on the developing side, just the DM Side. So I'm more voicing on addressing the metagaming claims here, not the system itself.

If you wish to sufficiently conceal your mark and hide yourself for whatever reason, you should probably use -disguise. (The low level issue is already addressed). Once -disguise properly works, if you are actively concealing yourself (And your mark), it should be a reliable way of hiding yourself if that is your intention.

On the system itself, it would be better if the tattoo of recognition was just raw knowledge that came from lore, or just some banner or seal that was adorned over whatever you wore, which you could hide with -disguise. Or the tattoo glows through your outfit. It doesn't matter much, but having it more clearly stated by whoever gives it can't hurt. Regardless, Revealing a disguise without breaking it should really be the clear line of metagaming or not metagaming used in the system for rule clarity.
Last edited by Queen Titania on Thu Apr 19, 2018 4:31 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Mark of the Pirate

Post by Queen Titania » Thu Apr 19, 2018 4:27 pm

BegoneThoth wrote:
Thu Apr 19, 2018 4:08 pm
Also, is it even metagaming to take pirate tattoos to ID other pirates?

I don't think it is or know how it could be.
It depends on the context. Perhaps a spy believes doing a bit of notoriety to gain insight on them is the ends to justify the means, but I imagine the consequences of getting caught could be severe. It could be viable to make a suggestion of losing your mark in such cases of being a traitor. (Though you could certainly appeal to the DM Team in such a case regardless, as a known traitor in the ranks is probably something you would want ousted).
BegoneThoth wrote:
Thu Apr 19, 2018 4:07 pm
I still think it's a travesty that there is no ownable ship on the pirate island.

I can't think of a single pirate in fiction that didn't own a ship and wasn't constantly lampooned for it, because a pirate with no ship is a joke.

"Yes I'm Dread Pirate Thoth, I don't own a ship, but you had better believe I take out the rental whenever somebody else isn't using it!"

I don't really understand why the liberator went public or why more ships wern't added.

These two aspects pretty much killed the pirate update for me, not being able to own a ship and being instantly identifiable everywhere by 'greenhorns' that may have never even interacted with you.
I thought an ownable ship was added to Sencliffe? Could be something to suggest if not.

But one reason why ships are put for public use is due to long droughts of lack of turnover, which leaves players unable to experience the ship system.
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Re: Mark of the Pirate

Post by BegoneThoth » Thu Apr 19, 2018 6:10 pm

I mean you may get notoriety for being a cordor narc but the people they "catch" are still getting banished/pvp'd over tattoos.

It's not exactly something you can win because you can't beat 'information.'

And no there are no perma vessels on the pirate island which is why the influential pirates have to use non pirate ships they can actually own to be an actual pirate.
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Re: Mark of the Pirate

Post by Ridiculously Circuitous Plans » Thu Apr 19, 2018 7:07 pm

I've seen it said several times in this thread that the problem with identifying low rank pirates has been fixed... but as I said in an earlier post... its not. One of my character's associates was able to see his Greenhorn tattoos with about 10 lore. This was two days ago, after the supposed change.

On another note... do people think it would be fitting if ships that are affiliated with specific settlements (The Flagship, the new Dwarven ship, etc...) could not dock at Sencliff? The island is literally crawling with pirates and defensive ballistas. I can't really imagine that they'd see Cordor's Flagship sail in and shout 'Oh Yay! Visitors! Let's go see if they want tea.'

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Re: Mark of the Pirate

Post by BegoneThoth » Thu Apr 19, 2018 7:27 pm

Also, to those who say I'm championing a lack of consequences for actions, I'm not. There should be consequences. But those consequences should happen after said person is actually caught participating in actual ic piracy, not strolling into Cordor to buy cheap portal lenses while wearing 'pirate' tats.
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Re: Mark of the Pirate

Post by Cortex » Thu Apr 19, 2018 7:40 pm

What if spotting the mark was removed altogether and only pirates could see one another?

This issue doesn't exist with Harpers (sure they're a major lore organization with lots of shit behind their back, but the Arelith cell isn't particularly massive), people also don't join the Harpers just to "rat them out" like it apparently does with pirates either.

Is there any requirement in becoming a pirate, right now? I don't actually know, must you be evil, non-good?
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Re: Mark of the Pirate

Post by Poolbrain » Thu Apr 19, 2018 7:46 pm

Cortex wrote:
Thu Apr 19, 2018 7:40 pm
What if spotting the mark was removed altogether and only pirates could see one another?

This issue doesn't exist with Harpers (sure they're a major lore organization with lots of shit behind their back, but the Arelith cell isn't particularly massive), people also don't join the Harpers just to "rat them out" like it apparently does with pirates either.

Is there any requirement in becoming a pirate, right now? I don't actually know, must you be evil, non-good?
All you need to do is to get to Sencliff somehow and talk to an NPC, say yes, and then you are a pirate forever with a mark.

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Re: Mark of the Pirate

Post by BegoneThoth » Thu Apr 19, 2018 7:49 pm

Cortex wrote:
Thu Apr 19, 2018 7:40 pm
What if spotting the mark was removed altogether and only pirates could see one another?

This issue doesn't exist with Harpers (sure they're a major lore organization with lots of shit behind their back, but the Arelith cell isn't particularly massive), people also don't join the Harpers just to "rat them out" like it apparently does with pirates either.

Is there any requirement in becoming a pirate, right now? I don't actually know, must you be evil, non-good?

There are individuals that became a pirate just to finger other pirates for settlements. Those are the narcs I speak of.
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Re: Mark of the Pirate

Post by Sab1 » Thu Apr 19, 2018 7:53 pm

Cortex wrote:
Thu Apr 19, 2018 7:40 pm
What if spotting the mark was removed altogether and only pirates could see one another?

This issue doesn't exist with Harpers (sure they're a major lore organization with lots of shit behind their back, but the Arelith cell isn't particularly massive), people also don't join the Harpers just to "rat them out" like it apparently does with pirates either.

Is there any requirement in becoming a pirate, right now? I don't actually know, must you be evil, non-good?
The main difference is Harper you have to take the class and get permission first. Where pirate it's just speaking to an NPC. Even making it something like the higher you get in pirate rank the easier it is to spot the mark. But taking the mark should mean something, as it is now once you take the mark you don't have to pirate yet still get all the benefits use of the shops, housing, renting the ships, and identifying other pirates.

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Re: Mark of the Pirate

Post by BegoneThoth » Thu Apr 19, 2018 8:41 pm

"A proud Cordor privateer!" - Authorized by the Cordor Navy to use the Flagship to travel two and from Senclife to apprehend pirares.
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Re: Mark of the Pirate

Post by Marsi » Thu Apr 19, 2018 10:11 pm

Ork wrote:
Thu Apr 19, 2018 2:43 pm
I always have issues where there's a gamey mechanic that supersedes roleplay. So what if your character has a tattoo of notoriety or has a noble background or epic reputation - if you haven't put in the work to earn that fame, it seems very shallow.
I agree (and also with the other dissenting voices, this is just the most quotable!).

I'm uncomfortable with the trend in newly released content that involves mechanically ordained labels, hierarchies, and titles. Who is and is not a pirate, a noble or a knight should be determined by the wider public through reputation and deed, not a scripted quest line. Introducing hardcoded hierarchies and description tags ("HEY DUDE IM A PIRATE RANK 10") discourages and disincentives player organisation and enterprise, and just brings to mind mainstream MMO design -- the very foundation of Arelith is the dynamic player landscape, why infringe upon and disregard that with mechanical determinism?

These things don't scale well in a persistent world and the awkwardness of shoehorned factions governed by static NPCs -- and the impact they have on those parts of the server once rising and fall at the whim of collaborative roleplay and player imagination alone -- will become apparent in the time to come.

Why should the great bell of Beaulieu toll when the shadows were neither short nor long?


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