Mark of the Pirate

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Baseili
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Re: Mark of the Pirate

Post by Baseili » Wed Apr 11, 2018 5:38 pm

Another idea for Pirate ranks.
First, have the -subdual command work with all melee weapons when taking the Dirty Fighting feat (though keeping the -4 penalty) while the current listed weapons remain the same. Then grant the feat at a high pirate rank so that boarding and tying up other PC's becomes a possibility rather than outright killing.

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Re: Mark of the Pirate

Post by Basementfellow » Wed Apr 11, 2018 11:08 pm

Baseili wrote:
Wed Apr 11, 2018 5:38 pm
Another idea for Pirate ranks.
First, have the -subdual command work with all melee weapons when taking the Dirty Fighting feat (though keeping the -4 penalty) while the current listed weapons remain the same. Then grant the feat at a high pirate rank so that boarding and tying up other PC's becomes a possibility rather than outright killing.
Not to derail, but I'd personally rather see -subdual opened up to all melee weapons, for everyone. The system is useless in it's current state.
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Re: Mark of the Pirate

Post by Rockstar1984 » Thu Apr 12, 2018 3:04 am

CharlesK wrote:
Fri Apr 06, 2018 2:03 pm
If I remember my history, pirates that raided certain areas where welcome in others.
You raid English boats? Welcome to France! Got anything good you want to sell?
So unless a character actively look part in raiding a ship from a settlement or acts against a settlement, - meh.
Pretty sure this is false. Piracy is a crime regardless of which nation's ships were actually being attacked. Committing piracy in a nation's waters was the crime itself. Pirates weren't trusted by governments even if they appeared peaceful to that nation, and also the government made no money off pirates. And those are the reasons why letters of marque and reprisal were issued to privateers. Not only was it an official agreement that the privateers would only attack enemy ships (a privateer attacking the ships of neutral nations was still considered piracy btw) it also was an agreement that the privateers would turn what they captured and looted in to a prize court. The government that issued the letter of marque to the privateer got a cut of the privateer's profits.

Speaking of being a "legal privateer" there are going to be ship and seafaring updates to all of the ships and not just Sencliff I hope? Because I'd love to see some more things to do with my own privateer faction.

Oh the year was 1778...


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Re: Mark of the Pirate

Post by R0GUE » Thu Apr 12, 2018 3:23 am

Rockstar1984 wrote:
Thu Apr 12, 2018 3:04 am
CharlesK wrote:
Fri Apr 06, 2018 2:03 pm
If I remember my history, pirates that raided certain areas where welcome in others.
You raid English boats? Welcome to France! Got anything good you want to sell?
So unless a character actively look part in raiding a ship from a settlement or acts against a settlement, - meh.
Pretty sure this is false. Piracy is a crime regardless of which nation's ships were actually being attacked. Committing piracy in a nation's waters was the crime itself. Pirates weren't trusted by governments even if they appeared peaceful to that nation, and also the government made no money off pirates. And those are the reasons why letters of marque and reprisal were issued to privateers. Not only was it an official agreement that the privateers would only attack enemy ships (a privateer attacking the ships of neutral nations was still considered piracy btw) it also was an agreement that the privateers would turn what they captured and looted in to a prize court. The government that issued the letter of marque to the privateer got a cut of the privateer's profits.

Speaking of being a "legal privateer" there are going to be ship and seafaring updates to all of the ships and not just Sencliff I hope? Because I'd love to see some more things to do with my own privateer faction.
The only thing about that though is that the line between being a privateer and pirate was quite blurred in reality. The Spanish considered all privateers to be pirates. Ingles was a single Spanish word that was synonymous for "pirate", "Englishman", and "Protestant". Pirates would quite often accept Letters of Marque to disguise their illegitimate acts and give them a thin veil of legality. Jean Lafitte for example, took Letters of Marque from many governments and then became a hero to the US at the Battle of New Orleans, but prior to that he was known for piracy.

I'm not saying you are wrong about pirates being reviled. The Spanish reviled pretty much all pirates and privateers alike, because they were they dominant power and their galleons were the ones being raided. But saying that being a "privateer" was more legal than being a "pirate" is a bit of semantics.
Last edited by R0GUE on Thu Apr 12, 2018 1:57 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Mark of the Pirate

Post by Rockstar1984 » Thu Apr 12, 2018 3:36 am

R0GUE wrote:
Thu Apr 12, 2018 3:23 am
The only thing about that though is that the line between being a privateer and pirate was quite blurred in reality. The Spanish considered all privateers to be pirates. Anglais was a single Spanish word that was synonymous for "pirate", "Englishman", and "Protestant". Pirates would quite often accept Letters of Marque to disguise their illegitimate acts and give them a thin veil of legality. Jean Lafitte for example, took Letters of Marque from many governments and then became a hero to the US at the Battle of New Orleans, but prior to that he was known for piracy.

I'm not saying you are wrong about pirates being reviled. The Spanish reviled pretty much all pirates and privateers alike, because they were they dominant power and their galleons were the ones being raided. But saying that being a "privateer" was more legal than being a "pirate" is a bit of semantics.
But a privateer was quite welcome in their issuing nation and were often seen as patriots and heroes by that nation's people. Within the nation they operated it was legal and furthermore they were protected. Currently my own character is seeing much of this very same debate in character, which is very fun to rp out.

Oh the year was 1778...


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Re: Mark of the Pirate

Post by R0GUE » Thu Apr 12, 2018 4:18 am

Rockstar1984 wrote:
Thu Apr 12, 2018 3:36 am
R0GUE wrote:
Thu Apr 12, 2018 3:23 am
The only thing about that though is that the line between being a privateer and pirate was quite blurred in reality. The Spanish considered all privateers to be pirates. Anglais was a single Spanish word that was synonymous for "pirate", "Englishman", and "Protestant". Pirates would quite often accept Letters of Marque to disguise their illegitimate acts and give them a thin veil of legality. Jean Lafitte for example, took Letters of Marque from many governments and then became a hero to the US at the Battle of New Orleans, but prior to that he was known for piracy.

I'm not saying you are wrong about pirates being reviled. The Spanish reviled pretty much all pirates and privateers alike, because they were they dominant power and their galleons were the ones being raided. But saying that being a "privateer" was more legal than being a "pirate" is a bit of semantics.
But a privateer was quite welcome in their issuing nation and were often seen as patriots and heroes by that nation's people. Within the nation they operated it was legal and furthermore they were protected. Currently my own character is seeing much of this very same debate in character, which is very fun to rp out.
Yup, that's true, until the pirate accepts a new Letter of Marque from a rival nation and begins raiding the old one's ships! Luke Ryan for example was an Irish pirate who fought for three different nations on opposite sides of the same war!

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Re: Mark of the Pirate

Post by Rockstar1984 » Thu Apr 12, 2018 5:47 am

But there were also privateers that were rather loyal to the country they sailed for and received rewards and status for it. Such as Sir Francis Drake. Of course we could go back and forth all day and totally derail the thread.

Bringing it back to topic, the point I'm making is in response to people saying that being a pirate shouldn't make characters hostile to you until you get caught doing something bad. Settlement officials and guards/militia should in general be hostile to any Sencliff pirate because piracy is a crime to a nation regardless of the allegiance of the ships being attacked. IMO if a character signs up with Sencliff then Cordorians especially should be very hostile to that character regardless if said character has actually done anything against Amn or Cordor. It is mostly Amn/Cordor's waters around Arelith and their navies should be very proactive in hunting all pirates down to get rid of the illegal activity happening in their territory. Of course there will be exceptions but I believe hostility should be the standard. I myself will be tightening down on this moving forward.

Oh the year was 1778...


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Re: Mark of the Pirate

Post by Baseili » Thu Apr 12, 2018 12:25 pm

Basementfellow wrote:
Wed Apr 11, 2018 11:08 pm
Not to derail, but I'd personally rather see -subdual opened up to all melee weapons, for everyone. The system is useless in it's current state.
Its certainly in an odd position though after some thought I'm not sure subdual should be open to all melee weapons mainly because some just don't make sense, the piercing weapons and most of the slashing come to mind (I really can't imagine someone being knocked out by a scythe, rapier or kukri).

So what about leaving the -subdual to the already listed weapons, remove the penalty (thus removing Dirty Fighting), and instead use Dirty Fighting's attack (forgoing all attacks in the round) as a chance to subdue with any weapon, if the target is at badly injured or lower?
It'd be like a punching your opponent while off balance, striking them with a blunt end of a weapon (pommel, handguard or handle) or bashing them with a shield. Not something done in the middle of a fight but as a strike of opportunity, perhaps rolled against concentration or reflex?

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Re: Mark of the Pirate

Post by Dr_Hazard89 » Thu Apr 12, 2018 1:30 pm

Baseili wrote:
Thu Apr 12, 2018 12:25 pm
Basementfellow wrote:
Wed Apr 11, 2018 11:08 pm
Not to derail, but I'd personally rather see -subdual opened up to all melee weapons, for everyone. The system is useless in it's current state.
Its certainly in an odd position though after some thought I'm not sure subdual should be open to all melee weapons mainly because some just don't make sense, the piercing weapons and most of the slashing come to mind (I really can't imagine someone being knocked out by a scythe, rapier or kukri).

So what about leaving the -subdual to the already listed weapons, remove the penalty (thus removing Dirty Fighting), and instead use Dirty Fighting's attack (forgoing all attacks in the round) as a chance to subdue with any weapon, if the target is at badly injured or lower?
It'd be like a punching your opponent while off balance, striking them with a blunt end of a weapon (pommel, handguard or handle) or bashing them with a shield. Not something done in the middle of a fight but as a strike of opportunity, perhaps rolled against concentration or reflex?
I like the suggestion.
Characters: Xun'sali (ACTIVE), Tianae Tymeaneldth (Rolled), Sylali (Rolled), Magpie (Rolled), Ker'uanna Tymeaneldth (Rolled), Lepota Poklona (Rolled), Andariel Bloodletter (Shelved), Tahl'tril Cyredrretyn (Rolled), L'omithiel (Shelved).

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Re: Mark of the Pirate

Post by R0GUE » Thu Apr 12, 2018 1:51 pm

Rockstar1984 wrote:
Thu Apr 12, 2018 5:47 am
But there were also privateers that were rather loyal to the country they sailed for and received rewards and status for it. Such as Sir Francis Drake. Of course we could go back and forth all day and totally derail the thread.

Bringing it back to topic, the point I'm making is in response to people saying that being a pirate shouldn't make characters hostile to you until you get caught doing something bad. Settlement officials and guards/militia should in general be hostile to any Sencliff pirate because piracy is a crime to a nation regardless of the allegiance of the ships being attacked. IMO if a character signs up with Sencliff then Cordorians especially should be very hostile to that character regardless if said character has actually done anything against Amn or Cordor. It is mostly Amn/Cordor's waters around Arelith and their navies should be very proactive in hunting all pirates down to get rid of the illegal activity happening in their territory. Of course there will be exceptions but I believe hostility should be the standard. I myself will be tightening down on this moving forward.
Well, it's also a fantasy world so real world rules need not apply. In my mind, pirates would be welcome in seedy and low-class areas, the docks and the dives and what-not, but less welcome in upper class areas. In the end I think it's just up to each individual to roleplay as they see fit. If you think your character would treat pirates hostilely then you do you!

One note on the subject though is from what I have heard, -disguise is somewhat broken right now? If that's the case maybe pirates could get a little leeway until said bug is fixed.

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Re: Mark of the Pirate

Post by Basementfellow » Thu Apr 12, 2018 2:47 pm

Dr_Hazard89 wrote:
Thu Apr 12, 2018 1:30 pm
Baseili wrote:
Thu Apr 12, 2018 12:25 pm
Basementfellow wrote:
Wed Apr 11, 2018 11:08 pm
Not to derail, but I'd personally rather see -subdual opened up to all melee weapons, for everyone. The system is useless in it's current state.
Its certainly in an odd position though after some thought I'm not sure subdual should be open to all melee weapons mainly because some just don't make sense, the piercing weapons and most of the slashing come to mind (I really can't imagine someone being knocked out by a scythe, rapier or kukri).

So what about leaving the -subdual to the already listed weapons, remove the penalty (thus removing Dirty Fighting), and instead use Dirty Fighting's attack (forgoing all attacks in the round) as a chance to subdue with any weapon, if the target is at badly injured or lower?
It'd be like a punching your opponent while off balance, striking them with a blunt end of a weapon (pommel, handguard or handle) or bashing them with a shield. Not something done in the middle of a fight but as a strike of opportunity, perhaps rolled against concentration or reflex?
I like the suggestion.
I hate the idea of making players take terrible feats just to use a standard feature.

Also, halberd is one of the listed weapons for -subdual. If you can manage to safely incapacitate someone with what amounts to a giant axe, you should be able to do it with something as small and maneuverable as a rapier. I don't see it as necessarily 'knocking someone out', you're just making them unable to fight. That aside, every weapon has a blunt part that you could easily use to knock someone out, if that's the only way you can see it.
Iceborn wrote:I shall very inefficiently murder with a spoon the next individual that mentions Shrek.

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Re: Mark of the Pirate

Post by Dr_Hazard89 » Thu Apr 12, 2018 8:17 pm

Basementfellow wrote:
Thu Apr 12, 2018 2:47 pm
Dr_Hazard89 wrote:
Thu Apr 12, 2018 1:30 pm
Baseili wrote:
Thu Apr 12, 2018 12:25 pm


Its certainly in an odd position though after some thought I'm not sure subdual should be open to all melee weapons mainly because some just don't make sense, the piercing weapons and most of the slashing come to mind (I really can't imagine someone being knocked out by a scythe, rapier or kukri).

So what about leaving the -subdual to the already listed weapons, remove the penalty (thus removing Dirty Fighting), and instead use Dirty Fighting's attack (forgoing all attacks in the round) as a chance to subdue with any weapon, if the target is at badly injured or lower?
It'd be like a punching your opponent while off balance, striking them with a blunt end of a weapon (pommel, handguard or handle) or bashing them with a shield. Not something done in the middle of a fight but as a strike of opportunity, perhaps rolled against concentration or reflex?
I like the suggestion.
I hate the idea of making players take terrible feats just to use a standard feature.

Also, halberd is one of the listed weapons for -subdual. If you can manage to safely incapacitate someone with what amounts to a giant axe, you should be able to do it with something as small and maneuverable as a rapier. I don't see it as necessarily 'knocking someone out', you're just making them unable to fight. That aside, every weapon has a blunt part that you could easily use to knock someone out, if that's the only way you can see it.
That's fair too. You could smack someone with the hilt of your blade, and if you really are trained to use the weapon you should be comfortable using every part of it. I can see an argument for it both ways, but liked the suggestion because it turns an otherwise useless feat into something somewhat useful. I know of a few players who already take the feat just to help with guard RP.

Not having to take the feat at all, or making it useful in some other way is cool too.
Characters: Xun'sali (ACTIVE), Tianae Tymeaneldth (Rolled), Sylali (Rolled), Magpie (Rolled), Ker'uanna Tymeaneldth (Rolled), Lepota Poklona (Rolled), Andariel Bloodletter (Shelved), Tahl'tril Cyredrretyn (Rolled), L'omithiel (Shelved).

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Re: Mark of the Pirate

Post by Baseili » Thu Apr 12, 2018 10:59 pm

I'd see it as two different ways of fighting, using the command would be aiming to subdue where as using the feat would be taking an opportunity to try to subdue during a fight to the death.

Slightly more on topic:

What about pirates chosing a speciality once they reach Dread Pirate? Such as Slaver (more coin for handing in captives), Scallywag (better chances of finding more loot on ships) and Coastal Raider (better chances of finding loot on the islets etc).

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Re: Mark of the Pirate

Post by DishServedHot2 » Thu Apr 12, 2018 11:10 pm

I think in pen and paper all weapons can be used nonlethally with the same penalty, but only certain weapons (truncheon and saps) could be used to sneak attack nonlethally. On a similar note, perhaps piracy could give a bonus on your effective use rope skill? Both to capture people and just all that experience on ships.

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Re: Mark of the Pirate

Post by Nitro » Fri Apr 13, 2018 1:23 am

DishServedHot2 wrote:
Thu Apr 12, 2018 11:10 pm
I think in pen and paper all weapons can be used nonlethally with the same penalty, but only certain weapons (truncheon and saps) could be used to sneak attack nonlethally. On a similar note, perhaps piracy could give a bonus on your effective use rope skill? Both to capture people and just all that experience on ships.
In the 3.5 P&P, nonlethal damage is actually a huge pain in the rear:
Dealing Nonlethal Damage

Certain attacks deal nonlethal damage. Other effects, such as heat or being exhausted, also deal nonlethal damage. When you take nonlethal damage, keep a running total of how much you’ve accumulated. Do not deduct the nonlethal damage number from your current hit points. It is not “real” damage. Instead, when your nonlethal damage equals your current hit points, you’re staggered, and when it exceeds your current hit points, you fall unconscious. It doesn’t matter whether the nonlethal damage equals or exceeds your current hit points because the nonlethal damage has gone up or because your current hit points have gone down.
Nonlethal Damage with a Weapon that Deals Lethal Damage

You can use a melee weapon that deals lethal damage to deal nonlethal damage instead, but you take a –4 penalty on your attack roll.
This pain in the rear manifests from nonlethal damage applying to an entirely separate pool of HP from regular lethal damage. A far smoother solution would be to just keep the current system but let every weapon do -nonlethal with a -4 AB penalty.

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Re: Mark of the Pirate

Post by rookie » Fri Apr 13, 2018 8:05 am

I find it really odd that it is easier to kill someone and then bring them back from the dead than subdue them.

I'm not talking from a magical/biology/physics perspective, but from an immersive RP perspective. I realize that being knocked out is far from a pleasant experience but brutally murdering as a method to "capture" seems kind of backwards to me. Cheapens the whole "dieing" thing IMO.

As far as 3.x mechanics go, NWN also doesn't feature the ability to pin and hog-tie people without even bothering to reduce their HP or subdual metamagic like 3.x PnP had too which were the two common methods I saw in actual play to subdue someone. I'm not suggesting they be added either, but it wasn't a difficult problem to subdue someone at any table I played at for 3.x. Even if it was I don't think it has to be so difficult on Arelith given the kill/raise/"death has no meaning" alternative used and the fact that a PW has a different dynamic for PC interaction than PnP does.

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Re: Mark of the Pirate

Post by Sab1 » Fri Apr 13, 2018 3:03 pm

rookie wrote:
Fri Apr 13, 2018 8:05 am
I find it really odd that it is easier to kill someone and then bring them back from the dead than subdue them.

I'm not talking from a magical/biology/physics perspective, but from an immersive RP perspective. I realize that being knocked out is far from a pleasant experience but brutally murdering as a method to "capture" seems kind of backwards to me. Cheapens the whole "dieing" thing IMO.

As far as 3.x mechanics go, NWN also doesn't feature the ability to pin and hog-tie people without even bothering to reduce their HP or subdual metamagic like 3.x PnP had too which were the two common methods I saw in actual play to subdue someone. I'm not suggesting they be added either, but it wasn't a difficult problem to subdue someone at any table I played at for 3.x. Even if it was I don't think it has to be so difficult on Arelith given the kill/raise/"death has no meaning" alternative used and the fact that a PW has a different dynamic for PC interaction than PnP does.
But it generally is easier to kill someone than get them to a point where you can tie them up, then try and transport them back all the while they are trying to figure out ways to escape. Also after killing a few dozen Talos followers, robbing them, etc. Brutally murdering someone you are trying to capture would be no huge deal. Which is why many times pirates left no witnesses. It was simply easier to toss them over the side than figure out what to do with theese guys.

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Re: Mark of the Pirate

Post by rookie » Fri Apr 13, 2018 11:33 pm

Sab1 wrote:
Fri Apr 13, 2018 3:03 pm
But it generally is easier to kill someone than get them to a point where you can tie them up, then try and transport them back all the while they are trying to figure out ways to escape. Also after killing a few dozen Talos followers, robbing them, etc. Brutally murdering someone you are trying to capture would be no huge deal. Which is why many times pirates left no witnesses. It was simply easier to toss them over the side than figure out what to do with theese guys.
Sorry I should have been clear in speaking about subdue in general (which is a bit off topic) as opposed to relating only to pirates.

I'm not arguing that subduing should be easier than killing, rather that using murder+raise as a method of capture instead of subdue seems backwards from an RP perspective. Yet with the mechanics the way they are that is the best way to handle it.

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Re: Mark of the Pirate

Post by Poolbrain » Wed Apr 18, 2018 6:50 am

There's way too much metagaming going on with the mark. There needs to be a way to hide it without going full disuise mode. Specially since sencliff has become a starting area.

Too many players are jumping to conclusions. I also dont think its completely fair for the spotters themselves to recognize information of mayor plot importance when examining someone without being able to react on it ICLY. (recognizing the mark on a coated character)

Its like putting a big piece of meat infront of a dog and tell them not to eat it.

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Re: Mark of the Pirate

Post by Bozonicus » Wed Apr 18, 2018 8:46 am

To anyone constantly harrassing low level pirates, I llama spit on you. Ptyih ptyih

I've received complaints of metagaming, stealing players' weapons and high level players just ganking low level pirates on sight. While I understand the hostility against outed pirates, drow or wanted criminals, people doing this should respect the mandatory roleplaying and twenty four hour rule.

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Re: Mark of the Pirate

Post by Dr_Hazard89 » Wed Apr 18, 2018 8:55 am

Yep. Too much metagaming going on. This needs to be removed from descriptions.

Forearm is covered, yet I can see the tattoo? It's taking agency away from players and only diminishes RP while offering nothing.

Good idea, but not working.
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Re: Mark of the Pirate

Post by ForgottenBhaal » Wed Apr 18, 2018 9:30 am

Nice idea, but not working. Make it like the harper token, only visible if you have taken the mark yourself.

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Re: Mark of the Pirate

Post by Dragonovith » Wed Apr 18, 2018 5:04 pm

Dr_Hazard89 wrote:
Wed Apr 18, 2018 8:55 am
Forearm is covered, yet I can see the tattoo?
Here's a suggestion. When I interact with a pirate character, I usually send them a tell asking if their tattoo is currently visible and not hidden by their armor or a piece of clothing.

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Re: Mark of the Pirate

Post by Sab1 » Wed Apr 18, 2018 5:35 pm

Dr_Hazard89 wrote:
Wed Apr 18, 2018 8:55 am
Yep. Too much metagaming going on. This needs to be removed from descriptions.

Forearm is covered, yet I can see the tattoo? It's taking agency away from players and only diminishes RP while offering nothing.

Good idea, but not working.
But the if forearm covered then not even pirates should be able to see it.

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Re: Mark of the Pirate

Post by Sockss » Wed Apr 18, 2018 5:37 pm

I hope it stays, I like actions having consequences.
Thankfully this team is no longer being used.

Sockss#5567 for nwn mechanics questions.

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