Mark of the Pirate

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DishServedHot2
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Re: Mark of the Pirate

Post by DishServedHot2 » Fri Apr 06, 2018 10:58 am

I've been talking about this sort of thing ooc with Cordor guards. We have at least one guard who is able to make the lore check, and have been taking down names of those we notice with the mark who have had exposed tattoos on their character. Outside of some of the more blatant cases, we haven't been going after pirates directly yet in a serious way.

While I get that making the check means that you know that the person is a pirate of Sencliffe, it doesn't seem very fun to immediately jump to some sort of exile or punishment, so I've been trying to figure out ways to handle the interactions with more build up rather than just straight out conflict.

So far I think there are a few reasons to pause before immediately damning a pirate.
-Being a pirate of Sencliffe doesn't necessarily mean they are targeting Cordorian ships.
-Pirates and other sailors are often forced into their jobs, so the 'pirate' may not be willing.
-Pirates may be able to give us information on other pirates, and their leadership.

Does anybody have any suggestions on making the rp more fun for all those involved? Pirates, Guards etc?

I also think that a lore check of higher than 20 would be better, if I remember right 25 was secret information in tabletop, however... unless it's a lore check of above 40, a lot of people are going to recognize the tattoos anyway, and even if its higher than 40, it's still not an impossible check to make, so I think people being exposed as having tattoos is going to happen inevitably.

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Tathkar Eisgrim
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Re: Mark of the Pirate

Post by Tathkar Eisgrim » Fri Apr 06, 2018 11:14 am

DishServedHot2 wrote:
Fri Apr 06, 2018 10:58 am
I've been talking about this sort of thing ooc with Cordor guards. We have at least one guard who is able to make the lore check, and have been taking down names of those we notice with the mark who have had exposed tattoos on their character. Outside of some of the more blatant cases, we haven't been going after pirates directly yet in a serious way.

While I get that making the check means that you know that the person is a pirate of Sencliffe, it doesn't seem very fun to immediately jump to some sort of exile or punishment, so I've been trying to figure out ways to handle the interactions with more build up rather than just straight out conflict.

So far I think there are a few reasons to pause before immediately damning a pirate.
-Being a pirate of Sencliffe doesn't necessarily mean they are targeting Cordorian ships.
-Pirates and other sailors are often forced into their jobs, so the 'pirate' may not be willing.
-Pirates may be able to give us information on other pirates, and their leadership.

Does anybody have any suggestions on making the rp more fun for all those involved? Pirates, Guards etc?

I also think that a lore check of higher than 20 would be better, if I remember right 25 was secret information in tabletop, however... unless it's a lore check of above 40, a lot of people are going to recognize the tattoos anyway, and even if its higher than 40, it's still not an impossible check to make, so I think people being exposed as having tattoos is going to happen inevitably.
As a fellow player, thank you for giving the matter careful consideration on how to 'play fair'. Your points are valid, especially in light that tattoos cannot be hidden (I am reminded of the always-on issue of Harper Pins from many moons ago).

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Tathkar Eisgrim
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Re: Mark of the Pirate

Post by Tathkar Eisgrim » Fri Apr 06, 2018 1:36 pm

Sab1 wrote:
Wed Apr 04, 2018 9:06 pm
As we still can't make suggestions I thought I would ask about the pirate system. The problem is at the moment there are people getting the pirate mark simply so they can identify other pirates. So is there any suggestions/ideas to make it so there is a better way for pirates to not be outed so easily?
With regards to the original post.

- When you use the examine tool on your own character it does not show the tattoo text. This makes it easy to overlook its importance & assumptively think others can't see it too.

So, suggestion wise:-

- Auto-success to see own tattoo. Ideally this should reveal full extent of the tattoo status.
- Visiting a tattoo parlour should allow a pirate to change the status of their tattoo from 'Brazen display' to 'Obfuscated'.

A brazenly displayed tattoo -- the pirate wears the tattoo as an open badge of honour.
An obfuscated tattoo has the pirate mark hidden amongst other maritime tattoos (bonus to concealment/ higher Lore requirement to spot).

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CharlesK
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Re: Mark of the Pirate

Post by CharlesK » Fri Apr 06, 2018 2:03 pm

There is discussion of the pirate topic in the Guard, currently it ranges from Give em all pariah status to maybe start a lengthy investigation on them.

IMHO The implementation of the pirate mark is most probably in need of changes based on reactions.

***
If I remember my history, pirates that raided certain areas where welcome in others.
You raid English boats? Welcome to France! Got anything good you want to sell?
So unless a character actively look part in raiding a ship from a settlement or acts against a settlement, - meh.

The ease of spotting a mark that could easily change location and be small...
the mechanical implementation in game obviously needs some serious tweaking, just looking at it from a logical AND historical perspective.
___________________________________
When the DM asks you "Are you sure you want to do that?"
Then go on with your idea and die...
Your an idiot and the party hopes the next character you role is smarter...
:D :D :D

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Baseili
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Re: Mark of the Pirate

Post by Baseili » Fri Apr 06, 2018 2:48 pm

DM Titania wrote:
Fri Apr 06, 2018 4:04 am
"He was outed at Cordor after turning into a werewolf "

This is what I will emphasize.

He becomes an issue /after/ doing something bad. I.E., before, he may be regarded carefully, but now that he is a problem, (Became a werewolf), he is even more talked about. This didn't happen just because.

Also being on a public board is really not a counter. The guy doesn't have to use his real name everywhere, can disguise, etc.

This isn't immediate ousting, this is doing something to get in trouble and have your actions spread. There are many, many counter actions available to keep your identity safe.

Even when it is compromised, there are plenty of things to do (From not caring to stayling low) to weather the storm.
Therein lies my issue with the tattoo, rather than just being outed as a werewolf for transforming into a werewolf he got outed as a pirate too, without committing any act of piracy, entirely because of the mark. Chances are so long as the mark can be seen, it will brand that character as a pirate even if they do something utterly unrelated to piracy.
Furthermore, If pirates can be identified by a skill check rather than being caught in the act then why should people accept the mark when they can do almost everything a pirate can currently do (minus the writs) just by renting/owning a boat without any of the negatives?

I would also like to point out that no where in any of the bits of text, or the announcement of the pirate system, was it stated that the mark could be seen by a non-pirate in any way, shape or form. Perhaps an OOC warning could be attached to the dialogue when taking the tattoo?

As for being outed on the boards, yes there are many ways of keeping your identity safe and weathering the storm but the fact that pirates were unaware that their tattoos could be spotted by others means some characters are stuck with only one option; weather it.
DM Titania wrote:
Fri Apr 06, 2018 4:04 am
I disagree with the intimidating aspect still, because intimidating does not always mean looking away in fear, but sometimes being extremely watchful in fear. It should keep to the bluff/perform flavor at most. There's no reason to throw another stat to the contribution list.
I'd like to clarify that my suggestion was only to cover the tattoo, not to disguise the character or their stats. Though the example you describe sounds more like paranoia than intimidation to my mind, being fearful as opposed to being scared of someone, I would agree that intimidation should not aid in disguise.


The life of a pirate should be risky but currently its too frontloaded with nothing to gain beyond the first step and a pretty big piece of fine print in the way of the tattoo being spotted.

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Cortex
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Re: Mark of the Pirate

Post by Cortex » Fri Apr 06, 2018 3:16 pm

well while the design of the mark is up to debate, being a pirate is actually pretty lit, i'd never consider it a bad thing unless it doesnt fit the character

1. Exclusive ships.
2. Exclusive quarters.
3. Exclusive quests.
4. Exclusive FOIGs.
:)

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Irongron
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Re: Mark of the Pirate

Post by Irongron » Fri Apr 06, 2018 3:17 pm

So...

The Sencliff pirates are not assassins or highwaymen. Rather they are an underworld criminal/gang fraternity. Not unlike jail, biker or gang tattoos in our own world they are intended to be both visible and intimidating. They are taken with full knowledge that they will lead to discrimination among law-abiding citizens, they are a mark of dedication, and loyalty.

The lore requirement is intended to reflect the fact that those 'in the know' will recognise them for what they are, but I suspect this is probably better also tied to rogue/thieves cant classes (with a far higher lore requirement for others)

Sencliff is still being worked on, and there is a lot more ship content just around the corner (The next big update is a massive expansion to the ship system & encounters - and is already largely complete). It is our intention that the pirate rank will begin to convey certain benefits - hiring of henchmen, skill bonuses (intimidate) and ship use or certain quarter purchase. Already in sencliff all the quarters ship have a 'rank requirement' but I decided to set this intitally to the lowest level to give time for players to progress.

Now it is up to settlements to set their own laws, but the tattoos themselves are not necessarily a criminal offence, a character may say that got them during a mispent and deeply regrettable youth, were forced to take them after being captured by pirates in a 'join or die scenario'. Ultimately it is up for every character to explain their own - should they wish to.

Perhaps a location in the module to have them removed would make sense, if it basically made Eamon extremely hostile to character, and never willing to bestow them again.

Do watch this space though, and feel free to post suggestion what benefits YOU feel a ranking pirate should have. My vision is that this will form part of a system of 'criminal nobility' to match the more conventional system introduced. Indeed I put priority on this aspect of Sencliff after nobility was introduced elsewhere.

Sab1
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Re: Mark of the Pirate

Post by Sab1 » Fri Apr 06, 2018 3:25 pm

I don't disagree with a pirate being found out and I haven't seen anyone jailed just for the mark. My main issue is people admitting to taking the mark simply so they can identify and report who has the mark. And if it's just 20 lore that's pretty easy to get. Maybe 30, so buying two rings won't get you half way there.

That's why a nice change would be having to complete x amount of pirate writs before able to earn the mark. Sort of a test to see how dedicated you really are type thing. That would at least mean anyone who has the mark had to of done a few deeds to earn it and weed out the spies who simply get the mark.

Gods_Kill_People
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Re: Mark of the Pirate

Post by Gods_Kill_People » Fri Apr 06, 2018 4:10 pm

Im just gonna point out, this sounds like the exact same concerns that Tiefling players were having...

I wanna play X raced character....but I don't want the consequences of the char...so you will never see my third nipple...

Sorry, you take the class, you get the tattoo, and you accept the consequences of taking that path.

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DishServedHot2
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Re: Mark of the Pirate

Post by DishServedHot2 » Fri Apr 06, 2018 7:39 pm

As far as people taking the mark to detect others with the mark, I think there is an easy IC solution to that which doesn't require DM involvement. Don't trust people with the mark. If people are trying to abuse the mark to identify other pirates, they will soon find themselves distrusted by both other pirates, and those who observe them through lore or the like.

That said, joining to detect other pirates automatically does seem a bit off to me. (Deep infiltration spies being completely different)

Higher lore requirements for non rogues also sounds good to me.

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flower
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Re: Mark of the Pirate

Post by flower » Fri Apr 06, 2018 8:05 pm

Gods_Kill_People wrote:
Fri Apr 06, 2018 4:10 pm
Im just gonna point out, this sounds like the exact same concerns that Tiefling players were having...

I wanna play X raced character....but I don't want the consequences of the char...so you will never see my third nipple...

Sorry, you take the class, you get the tattoo, and you accept the consequences of taking that path.
Exactly.

You become a pirate, and get privilige to special content of the game, but this comes at the cost being unwanted among civilised settlements.

This is same as with outcasts. If you want special features it all offers, you cannot demand some privilegiums in treatment, Otherwise there is no point in outcast status, no point in getting tatoo. You become outcast/pirate and solid citizens should treat you like what you are. Criminal and outlaw.

Then happens very ridiculous situations. My friend laughed at me recently, saying that my eilsitraeen drow priestess got driven off by PCs/ NPCs in certain place but infamous villain and muderer known across island sits at the same place, having crumpets and tea with said PCs and NPCs blatantly ignoring his presence.

If pirates meet up in Nomad for a beer and chat with locals, with actually so many paladin NPCs and guards all over the inn, then something is wrong.

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Blood on my Lips
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Re: Mark of the Pirate

Post by Blood on my Lips » Fri Apr 06, 2018 9:21 pm

Sab1 wrote:
Fri Apr 06, 2018 3:25 pm
. My main issue is people admitting to taking the mark simply so they can identify and report who has the mark.
This seems really wrong to me.

Tourmaline
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Re: Mark of the Pirate

Post by Tourmaline » Fri Apr 06, 2018 9:50 pm

Does disguise not conceal the pirate tattoos?

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Baseili
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Re: Mark of the Pirate

Post by Baseili » Fri Apr 06, 2018 11:35 pm

I've got no trouble with pirates being known, after all what's the point of being a Dread Pirate without the infamy that comes with it? My issue, as I've stated, is being outed at any rank by a skill check that can be achieved at level 7 with two insight rings for simply having the tattoo, or worse by someone whose taken the tattoo just to see who else has it. Not trusting them doesn't stop them from hitting "examine".

Personally I'd rather the tattoos not be seen by skill checks and instead have attacking ships/completing pirate writs trigger a roll, with the DC and chance of being named increasing with your pirate rank, to be reported on a maritime board at the various settlements. That way you'd eventually become known by actually being a pirate and could serve dual purpose as a recruiting tool for both pirate and lawful ships.
Irongron wrote:
Fri Apr 06, 2018 3:17 pm
Do watch this space though, and feel free to post suggestion what benefits YOU feel a ranking pirate should have. My vision is that this will form part of a system of 'criminal nobility' to match the more conventional system introduced. Indeed I put priority on this aspect of Sencliff after nobility was introduced elsewhere.
I'm looking forward to seeing what the team has been working on, baring the tattoo issue the Sencliff update is superb. As for ranks, I'm not sure what they all are since you can't see your own for some reason. Would it be possibly to get a breakdown of the list?

Nitro
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Re: Mark of the Pirate

Post by Nitro » Sat Apr 07, 2018 12:34 am

If someone is taking the pirate tattoo to rat out other pirates, it sounds like those pirates could show them what happens to snitches. Likewise, what makes them trustworthy? They got pirate tattoos after all. Anyone they point out can just as easily claim to just have the tats to snitch on other pirates if questioned.

Sab1
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Re: Mark of the Pirate

Post by Sab1 » Sat Apr 07, 2018 1:01 am

Again, I'm not saying should be impossible to detect a pirate tattoo. Just someone taking a tattoo simply so they can see others and spy seems seems like gaming the system to me. If my pirate is identified fine, yes there are risks especially when getting more fame, but to overhear a conversation of a player IC admitting they got the tattoo so they can discover other pirates seems like exploiting the system. Getting a tattoo should be a serious commitment to someone and not a ohh well I never plan to pirate so no big deal.

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Baseili
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Re: Mark of the Pirate

Post by Baseili » Sun Apr 08, 2018 1:17 pm

Taking the tattoo just to spot pirates does seem to fly in the face of Irongron's gang/fraternity intention, like joining the Harpers just to name the others. Its a double edged sword, on one side being able to see other pirates means its easier to form crews and generally have fun with your seadog brethren plundering the high seas, while on the other its a free pass to gather names.

As for pirate rank boons, heres a couple of things off the top of my head:

Passive bonuses to money earning skills per rank e.g. Persuade and Appraise.
Customisable ship's pet (Monkey, Parrot, Cat etc)
Armour customisations (Hats, ornate hook-hands and peglegs, eyepatches, jackets/robes)
Bar/estate quarters for veteran ranks and above, pirate hold for Dread Pirates only.
Discount prices on transport to Sencliff
Access to parrot/bird messengers on ships and pirate-y areas (Sencliff, Rayne's Landing, Crow's Next)
Council room for veteran pirates and above to hold meetings (singular teleport via NPC)
Ability to fly false or no colours, disguising the ship. The owner would need to have raided a ship to gain its colours.

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Bozonicus
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Re: Mark of the Pirate

Post by Bozonicus » Sun Apr 08, 2018 2:05 pm

It is a bit hard to play with this LEGAL PRIVATEER problem for both sides. Exposing LEGAL PRIVATEERS makes for great roleplaying situations, but I hope these situations unravel naturally - especially without frustrating new LEGAL PRIVATEERS.

I think one of the easier solutions is to describe where these marks are. Are they all on the wrist? Can you put them on your back? Pirates would hardly have giant X's on their forehead, but I agree 100% that they should be somewhere fair, where they can actually be seen by people and other pirates as well.

For example the amazing Bonzo has a very visible tattoo on his bicep that's grown more detailed in his LEGAL PRIVATEERING career. Two quick scenarios.

1) An expert might see him showing off his guns to tavern waitresses, tipping the guards of a possible LEGAL PRIVATEER. This is completely on Bonzo.

2) A guy sees Bonzo eating an apple in the distant corner of a tavern, squints and manages to use his/her/its X-ray vision to spot his peculiar tattoo underneath his jacket... Well that's some demigod stuff right there.

There's no need to change how faction information displays, but there should be a fair indicator about it. Bonzo would never recognize a Radiant Heart member unless they had some clear symbol.

Adding something SHORT in the bottom of your 7-page description helps a lot.
For example "There's a peculiar tattoo on his wrist. On closer inspection, it might reveal something..." Boom! You're suspicious, you pull the guy's sleeve up and there's a LEGAL PRIVATEER among you!

This will definately help players to idenfity without being afraid of metagaming or pissing in anyone's cereal. Plus it won't require any tinkering, just common sense and roleplay.

EDIT:
As for players abusively fetching the tattoos without commitment & just to force some PvP hunts, shame on you. I llama spit on you.

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BegoneThoth
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Re: Mark of the Pirate

Post by BegoneThoth » Sun Apr 08, 2018 4:39 pm

It's pretty insane to me that people are willing to cover their bodies with tattoos and forgo all settlement participation/citizenship just to narc on other PC's from whatever settlement they're no longer a member of but still work to support.

Yet here we are, and it's everywhere.

Edit; Though apparently people sort of do this with the Harper stuff? So who knows.
\

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flower
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Re: Mark of the Pirate

Post by flower » Sun Apr 08, 2018 5:07 pm

If someone takes pirate tatoo to just point others out he will find himself quickly in troubles.

You should let it be sorted IG. That guy with tatoo has no way out of it, and would have been branded forever, with all restrictions coming with it (and now also restricted on sencliff, imagine what happens when he walks in there and others know!).

And there is no thing like legal privateer. Cordor, and other settlements are full of NPC paladins. You really think they would sit and watch guy who robs ships, murders crewmen and raids ports like he empties one beer after another? That would be best way to get the last drink in his llife.

I am certain these paladins would just say "Oh its fine this murderer killls enemies of Cordor".

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BegoneThoth
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Re: Mark of the Pirate

Post by BegoneThoth » Sun Apr 08, 2018 5:47 pm

Sanctioned pirate detectors is a better description.

As in, warns the city ahead of time he's going to do it, get the OK, then joins the city guard or whatever to narc on pirates walking around.

Why would he find himself in trouble?
\

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Baseili
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Re: Mark of the Pirate

Post by Baseili » Sun Apr 08, 2018 6:10 pm

Exactly, and theres not much that can be done on Sencliff either. Whoever it is could be killed over and over but they'd still have access to isle and its perks, one of the reasons I suggested a settlement system just so pirates could exile traitors.

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flower
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Re: Mark of the Pirate

Post by flower » Sun Apr 08, 2018 6:16 pm

BegoneThoth wrote:
Sun Apr 08, 2018 5:47 pm
Sanctioned pirate detectors is a better description.

As in, warns the city ahead of time he's going to do it, get the OK, then joins the city guard or whatever to narc on pirates walking around.

Why would he find himself in trouble?
You both forget on flexible addition called DM.

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Bozonicus
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Re: Mark of the Pirate

Post by Bozonicus » Sun Apr 08, 2018 6:21 pm

"If someone takes pirate tatoo to just point others out he will find himself quickly in troubles."

Well that'd be optimal. However there are zero consequences to making a character for the sole purpose of covering the roleplaying aspect in order to abuse the "secret tattoo" information for main characters. There's no tracking a snitch since staying anonymous is easy. Joining a faction to get temporary access to spying, stealing or enabling other shifty behaviour to other PC's benefit is abusing the system and bad roleplay in my opinion.

This is of course my opinion, but the core issue is about avoiding metagaming and treating pirates like walking targets. No one is annoyed because people react to their horrible deeds. They're annoyed how people suddenly know about them. You'd have a hard time recognizing a cyricist in a robe. Why would a cloaked pirate be any different? They are a bunch of deceiving and violent liars, but it's not like they have it as a sign on their forehead.

Bothering DMs ingame would cause hundreds of cows spawning in Sencliff, rendering it unusable by anyone. I'd rather talk about the issue openly here. :D (I don't want cows.)

People can 100% recognize sailors and pirates with roleplay reasons. Maybe someone witnessed pirates talking about their plunder, saw them sell slaves or became the last survivor of a searaid. People are free to react and condemn pirates, however someone blatantly using description based information (or without even knowing of Sencliff's existance) is somewhat bogus.

*As for LEGAL PRIVATEERS...* :D
I should've made my sarcasm more obvious. I was jokingly replacing the word pirate with LEGAL PRIVATEER. My bad. Yarr.
Last edited by Bozonicus on Sun Apr 08, 2018 11:14 pm, edited 1 time in total.

Cerk Evermoore
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Re: Mark of the Pirate

Post by Cerk Evermoore » Sun Apr 08, 2018 6:32 pm

"Legal" privateers are not pirates and do not need the tattoos. Pirates are lawless and should not respect them.

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