Open Lock

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Beneidalus
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Open Lock

Post by Beneidalus » Wed Mar 14, 2018 1:46 am

You level up, rubbing your grubby little hands together with glee, as you collect the best lock-picks available, hire an enchanter to fill in the gaps for what crafted gear doesn't have Open Lock... and then finally, the moment of truth. DC 100 lock...

Nothing behind it, save for two plot locked doors? Nothing at all. Super-super-super-super-super-super-super-super frustrating. Now feeling like all that investment was an utter waste. C'est la vie, mon rogue. C'est la vie.

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Rags
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Re: Open Lock

Post by Rags » Wed Mar 14, 2018 2:06 pm

Most player houses do have significantly high DCs. I do agree that it's frustrating, and makes open lock feel rather useless in this situation. On the flip side, though, it'd be frustrating for players to have their items stolen from their chest often!

If I were to take a stab at making it a bit more 'fair', I'd..
  • Lower Quarter Entry DC (80? Someone better with numbers can figure it out.)
  • Lock player chests to those without quarter access, with a high DC.
That'd allow rogues to break in with less of an insane investment, or hassle. Getting character's valuables, though, would be much more difficult.

As Open Lock is right now, it feels largely useless in terms of its interaction with player homes. While this is undoubtedly intentional to prevent griefing, the niche builds and investment required to break into homes seems like a silly design to me, personally.

EDIT: As for dungeon chests that are so high.. they should be rewarding for such a high DC! I'm not opposed to giving Rogues bonuses to their 'roguely' skills (open lock, disable trap, search, etc.), either, if the majority of their class levels are pure!
Last edited by Rags on Wed Mar 14, 2018 2:57 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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If Valor Were Inches
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Re: Open Lock

Post by If Valor Were Inches » Wed Mar 14, 2018 2:42 pm

No Lock DC should exceed 100 in my opinion and be empty. It's more of a suggestion of a module change. I assume the OP speaks of a special dungeon area or the like.

I also feel like dedicated rogues (As in 21 Rogue levels) should get a bonus to all their thief skills that make them as good if not better) as their rival Bards who dump thief skills or Trickery clerics who do the same, maybe a flat +20 or other X number to open lock/disable trap/pick pocket/search/set trap/craft trap/bluff and maybe spot/listen too.

Basically, let dedicated rogues be good at what they do.

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Xanos950
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Re: Open Lock

Post by Xanos950 » Wed Mar 14, 2018 7:34 pm

Rags wrote:Most player houses do have significantly high DCs. I do agree that it's frustrating, and makes open lock feel rather useless in this situation. On the flip side, though, it'd be frustrating for players to have their items stolen from their chest often!

If I were to take a stab at making it a bit more 'fair', I'd..
  • Lower Quarter Entry DC (80? Someone better with numbers can figure it out.)
  • Lock player chests to those without quarter access, with a high DC.
That'd allow rogues to break in with less of an insane investment, or hassle. Getting character's valuables, though, would be much more difficult. [....]

They're just going to steal your furniture then.

Beneidalus
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Re: Open Lock

Post by Beneidalus » Wed Mar 14, 2018 7:44 pm

Yes, it was in reference to an area of the module, not a player quarter. Freth House. The only door that doesn't require a key, is a DC 100 lock. Which can't even be re-locked like most other doors. It was disabled, and remained like that permanently. Lending all the more to frustration, as it just seems like an incomplete, or bugged, area -- with a big shiny lock DC on the door, making you think there might have actually been something useful back there.

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Cortex
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Re: Open Lock

Post by Cortex » Wed Mar 14, 2018 7:45 pm

If the DC is low, then a rogue(or many) can enter into all quarters.

If the DC is high, then no rogue can enter into any quarter (bar retardo bard+rogue+ESF open lock meme garbage).

edit: If it's about NPC quarters then well idk what to say
:)

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Tathkar Eisgrim
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Re: Open Lock

Post by Tathkar Eisgrim » Wed Mar 14, 2018 8:03 pm

I feel for the OP. The binary nature of the Open Lock for Quarters arrangement (as opposed to a layered system of defences) contributed to me shelving my own epic rogue. It seriously undermines the 'Epic Rogue fantasy' and is a poor return for the massive skill investment.

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Durvayas
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Re: Open Lock

Post by Durvayas » Wed Mar 14, 2018 8:31 pm

I'm of the opinion that any improvements to open lock should be done on the module/NPC environment side of things, and let the status quo of locked quarters being untouchable remain.

If quarter DCs were reachable, there would be no point in owning them as they would be broken into by (almost surely) more than one burglar per day(90% of the time with no RP whatsoever, and no method of figuring out who is robbing your PC), rendering them utterly pointless for storage.

I think it would be much better for everyone to make open lock more useful around the module itself, especially for dungeoneering, rather than opening the DM team to a veritable flood of reports they'll have to investigate about people breaking the 1/day theft rule(when it'll turn out to be 1-3 different thieves hitting the same quarters, but with no means to tell the difference by the victims).
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Re: Open Lock

Post by Nitro » Wed Mar 14, 2018 8:38 pm

Nice, not even one post before a topic about module locked doors derailed into another quarter locks discussion. Classy.

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If Valor Were Inches
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Re: Open Lock

Post by If Valor Were Inches » Wed Mar 14, 2018 8:41 pm

I don't think that is true that quarters would be robbed by a high number of people daily, (As I've purposefully set low DC's before to invite burglary on purpose), and have been broken into on quarters with higher DC's more often than lower, simply because my lower one did not have anything desirable, but it was never more than once every long once in a while.

I do not think someone who is -dedicatedly- playing a rogue, as in mostly rogue levels with thief skill investment, should be barred from attempting to break into quarters. Quarters are too safe. This is why I think an open lock improvement could go nicely side to side with rogue class changes. Plus with such changes it'd be easier to code areas with goodies that only such dedicated thieves could reach, making them desirable party members over those pixie familiars that oft replace them.

Plus while changing it for NPC's is nice, interaction is largely and most significant with PC's. It should be for both.

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Re: Open Lock

Post by triaddraykin » Wed Mar 14, 2018 8:48 pm

I know what was behind that door, and at one time, it was the greatest secret of the isle. It was the instrument of a Lord's downfall. That time has passed, and it sits empty, it's secret now known the isle over. I would say it's FOIG, but I believe there's only a handful of people that know about it, I think all of them gone, and my rogue Rose Talbot was confirmed to be the first to ever discover and open it... And she didn't understand what she saw.

That said, I'll wait a day for a DM or something to say I shouldn't say it, I'll run it by a few of them.
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Re: Open Lock

Post by Hunter548 » Wed Mar 14, 2018 9:37 pm

If Valor Were Inches wrote:I don't think that is true that quarters would be robbed by a high number of people daily, (As I've purposefully set low DC's before to invite burglary on purpose), and have been broken into on quarters with higher DC's more often than lower, simply because my lower one did not have anything desirable, but it was never more than once every long once in a while.

I do not think someone who is -dedicatedly- playing a rogue, as in mostly rogue levels with thief skill investment, should be barred from attempting to break into quarters. Quarters are too safe. This is why I think an open lock improvement could go nicely side to side with rogue class changes. Plus with such changes it'd be easier to code areas with goodies that only such dedicated thieves could reach, making them desirable party members over those pixie familiars that oft replace them.

Plus while changing it for NPC's is nice, interaction is largely and most significant with PC's. It should be for both.
The counterpoint isn't that a huge number of people would rob you daily, but rather that there's a very distinct chance to lose your stuff and have no interaction with the rogue who's doing it. I've purposefully left my quarter low to allow for theft RP a few times over the year, and every time it happens, stuff disappears from my chest, but I never see any sign of the thief actually being there in either notes, items left in the chest, or any other form of interaction. Nor am I the only person with stories like this; I've seen others mention similar rationals in other threads on this topic. Now, sure, these instances may not happen every time or even the majority of times, but neither are they something players should be forced to enable. Being treated like an NPC by thief players isn't fun or engaging.
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Beneidalus
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Re: Open Lock

Post by Beneidalus » Wed Mar 14, 2018 10:26 pm

Once again, it was more about module areas. But for that matter, I would tack on the Claddath House. Not as difficult DC's but also locked doors that lead to utterly empty spaces. Huge bummer.

Quarter locks are doable, anyways. Just find a level 30 bard, and a rogue with ESF Open Lock. Boom.

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Re: Open Lock

Post by Shadowy Reality » Wed Mar 14, 2018 11:28 pm

Perhaps if chests could not be stolen from, or gated behing a really high DC, quarter DCs could be lowered to accepted levels.

There is much RP to be gained, be it furniture stealing, intimidation. assassination, spying, or just being generally creepy.

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Re: Open Lock

Post by rookie » Wed Mar 14, 2018 11:47 pm

Not really surprised that a PvE focused Open Lock thread would turn into discussing PvP. Works that way for pretty much any class/ability/spell that has applications for both PvE and PvP.

As far as PvE goes I wish there was more done with rewarding high Open Lock skills.

As for PvP, I'd like to see Quarters etc more accessible, but mechanics added where there would be a high chance of being found out so some RP could be generated from theft without relying on player kindness. And I don't mean investigations leading to "human female with high dexterity" but actually leading to know that "Catherine Lar Burg" was the thief. I'd be surprised even if the devs agreed that we'd see anything like that in the near future though.

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Re: Open Lock

Post by Beneidalus » Thu Mar 15, 2018 12:07 am

Not sure that would be thematically appropriate, to know precisely who stole from you. Especially not if disguised.

Speaking for myself, a lot of the fun of a thief character is in the gamble, and getting away without having every been found out at all. I don't even care what's taken. Could be 10gp. A clean getaway is all part of the thrill. Especially when you replace something in the chest, so as to not raise too many questions. Have the owner frustrated as they can't figure out what's missing at all. :lol:

I seriously doubt quarter locks are going to change, since they're already accessible with a little teamwork. Not only that, but for people who are more concerned with spying, why don't you just stealth into the quarter? Way easier than picking locks.

Would just be nice to see Open Lock be more useful out and about in the module.

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Re: Open Lock

Post by rookie » Thu Mar 15, 2018 12:51 am

Beneidalus wrote:Not sure that would be thematically appropriate, to know precisely who stole from you. Especially not if disguised.
I'm sure someone will respond with "Arelith isn't D&D/Forgotten Realms" but...

The amount you can find out with magic using a single strand of hair left behind is high. You can scry on an otherwise unknown person using a strand of hair. Or make a Simulacrum of the culprit under your complete control that has their memories and just find out everything about them. That ignores a lot of mundane investigation options and a slew of other magical options but hopefully you get my idea.

To me it is very easy to get away with a theft assuming you can get past the door, especially as a player can check to make sure their target and their allies are not online first. IMO the challenge is more in leaving enough clues for an investigation to succeed, getting away with it is actually easy.

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Xanos950
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Re: Open Lock

Post by Xanos950 » Thu Mar 15, 2018 1:57 am

Beneidalus wrote:Not sure that would be thematically appropriate, to know precisely who stole from you. Especially not if disguised.

Speaking for myself, a lot of the fun of a thief character is in the gamble, and getting away without having every been found out at all. I don't even care what's taken. Could be 10gp. A clean getaway is all part of the thrill. Especially when you replace something in the chest, so as to not raise too many questions. Have the owner frustrated as they can't figure out what's missing at all. :lol:

I seriously doubt quarter locks are going to change, since they're already accessible with a little teamwork. Not only that, but for people who are more concerned with spying, why don't you just stealth into the quarter? Way easier than picking locks.

Would just be nice to see Open Lock be more useful out and about in the module.
The obvious quarter solution of simply waiting until the target is offline aside, even pick-pocketing is ridiculous. All you have to do is probably prey on characters who you know based on their class who have no access to spot or other relevant skills. They'll never catch your attempt, so you repeat that until... i dunno, you snatch a gem pouch?

My point is, thievery on this server could need a LOT of work to actually be fun for either side without cheese.

Beneidalus
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Re: Open Lock

Post by Beneidalus » Thu Mar 15, 2018 2:55 am

Respectfully disagree. Going to go ahead and entertain the derail. I quite enjoy the thrill as is. Pickpocket's skill investment versus its potential rewards, typically isn't worth it, anyways. Not when you could pick skills like spot/discipline/heal/parry, instead.

True Sight now, by consequence, even if for a little amount of time, helps counter Pick-pocket, and the duration of Amplify is considerably longer. Desperately scooting your butt along to find a corner of safety from those pesky True Sights, is still important when it comes to quarter infiltration, and with multi-classing being the standard, how do you NOT have access to some form of detection? That's just smart building.

Theft is in a good place, so long as the 24hr rule is followed.

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Re: Open Lock

Post by Durvayas » Thu Mar 15, 2018 5:09 am

If Valor Were Inches wrote:I don't think that is true that quarters would be robbed by a high number of people daily, (As I've purposefully set low DC's before to invite burglary on purpose), and have been broken into on quarters with higher DC's more often than lower, simply because my lower one did not have anything desirable, but it was never more than once every long once in a while.

I do not think someone who is -dedicatedly- playing a rogue, as in mostly rogue levels with thief skill investment, should be barred from attempting to break into quarters. Quarters are too safe. This is why I think an open lock improvement could go nicely side to side with rogue class changes. Plus with such changes it'd be easier to code areas with goodies that only such dedicated thieves could reach, making them desirable party members over those pixie familiars that oft replace them.

Plus while changing it for NPC's is nice, interaction is largely and most significant with PC's. It should be for both.
Im going to point out that the system as is does not encourage burglars that pick locks, rather risky stealthing into a quarter with the hide/ms skill is more popular and effective.

If it was ever announced that quarters were changed and could now be picked reliably, let's not pretend there wouldn't be a sharp uptick in lockpicker dedicated rogues to take advantage of this.
Right now you have anecdotal evidence that picking quarter locks doesn't happen because there aren't a lot of dedicated pickers, and those that do exist likely don't bother checking.
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Re: Open Lock

Post by If Valor Were Inches » Thu Mar 15, 2018 1:03 pm

Durvayas wrote:
If Valor Were Inches wrote:I don't think that is true that quarters would be robbed by a high number of people daily, (As I've purposefully set low DC's before to invite burglary on purpose), and have been broken into on quarters with higher DC's more often than lower, simply because my lower one did not have anything desirable, but it was never more than once every long once in a while.

I do not think someone who is -dedicatedly- playing a rogue, as in mostly rogue levels with thief skill investment, should be barred from attempting to break into quarters. Quarters are too safe. This is why I think an open lock improvement could go nicely side to side with rogue class changes. Plus with such changes it'd be easier to code areas with goodies that only such dedicated thieves could reach, making them desirable party members over those pixie familiars that oft replace them.

Plus while changing it for NPC's is nice, interaction is largely and most significant with PC's. It should be for both.
Im going to point out that the system as is does not encourage burglars that pick locks, rather risky stealthing into a quarter with the hide/ms skill is more popular and effective.

If it was ever announced that quarters were changed and could now be picked reliably, let's not pretend there wouldn't be a sharp uptick in lockpicker dedicated rogues to take advantage of this.
Right now you have anecdotal evidence that picking quarter locks doesn't happen because there aren't a lot of dedicated pickers, and those that do exist likely don't bother checking.
I think that can be safely counterbalanced by giving this reliability only to dedicated rogues. Certainly not unfair or unbalanced if pure rogues for example, had greater reliability.

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Re: Open Lock

Post by Sab1 » Thu Mar 15, 2018 3:46 pm

This to me always seemed like trying to find a problem where there isn't much of a problem. If someone can't break into a house is that really devastating to rp?

Lockpickers who can get dungeon chests already have a nice advantage from either just sneaking by everything to get a chest or being the one in the group to open chests thus able to quickly grab nice items out first.

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Re: Open Lock

Post by Baseili » Thu Mar 15, 2018 4:51 pm

Perhaps not a problem per se but certainly an annoyance, after all the job of disabling traps, opening doors and locked chests can be done by anyone with a rogue dip or a pixie familiar just as good as someone whose invested 20 levels into the class. It's hard to imagine your character as an epic thief when you can be entirely replaced by a flying 4 inch multitool.

Breaking into people's quarters immediately brings that class fantasy back because it directly impacts other players in a huge, however negative, way. Instead I think a good middle ground can be found in the form of settlement heists, things like robbing treasuries, banks, palacies, manors and vaults. Stuff that impacts players but not on such a personal level while opening up (pun intended) various avenues for players to take.

Dedicated Rogues could gain access to a writ system that targets various NPC holdings, or even take on player issued contracts like assassins. One of Andunor's leaders could pay for Brog's vaults to be robbed, the Banites could pay for a relic to be stolen from the Radiants etc. So long as there is a limit to how much and how often a place can be robbed, it could make for a great deal of fun.

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Re: Open Lock

Post by Ork » Fri Mar 16, 2018 6:45 pm

Dedicated Rogues could gain access to a writ system that targets various NPC holdings, or even take on player issued contracts like assassins.
That is a great idea.

Beneidalus
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Re: Open Lock

Post by Beneidalus » Mon Mar 19, 2018 8:07 pm

Does seem like a cool idea at first, but also feels a bit disingenuous. Assassins have a unique set of abilities that improve the more you invest. Rogue gets... feats, which mostly serve a tax to achieve Epic Dodge, which rather than being "really good" finally makes the rogue acceptable. The fact that rogues need a feat that you can only acquire at level 27+ just to be competitive, really makes 'em lackluster.

Back on point though, Assassin's get the same thing now. Assassin's also exclusively get Death Attack, which scales in use the more you invest; along with poison/damage related goodies, thanks to the awesome work of the Dev team. Rogue? Well you get the feat tax of Epic Dodge, annnnnd... epic skill foci? Those are something, sure, but touch on the original issue of the thread. The fact that those skill investments don't appear to be very rewarding. Skills like Open Lock.

Prior the Assassin update, I always found the Assassin's Guild as something of a joke. Thinking that they should allow rogues access as well, simply because, anything an Assassin could do, a Rogue could do it better. Now Assassin's have been given their flair. They standout as something unique from a Rogue (honestly, in most every way better than a rogue now). So it makes sense IC'ly that only those of specific abilities ought to be allowed to be assassins.

Take that to the notion of only epic rogues given access to some manner of guild to rob settlements. That sounds hella fun, but this seems like another example of... why only give it to one class, that might not even do it the best? Take bards for example. They get access to Pick-Pocket, and excel with social skills (persuade/bluff/perform), along with having access to stealth skills. Bard song it up? You have some of the best skill numbers ever. So since a bard could perform so well, why would you limit access to some Theft System, only to Rogues, who aren't even going to be the best at it?

What it comes down to, I think, much like the Assassin, is that Rogue has yet to receive that little bit of flair, that lets it stand out from the rest. A payoff for epic investment, reflected in their in-game abilities. Limiting who has access to module systems, simply because their class isn't named "Rogue" seems a bit silly. Just hypothetically speaking, of course, if a Theft System were to go in place, it would be super fun, but for it to be fairly limited to Rogues, I feel like the class still needs something to set it apart, to even make it deserving of such a system.

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