Regeneration from iceberries.

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Tryn Dralar
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Re: Regeneration from iceberries.

Post by Tryn Dralar » Fri Mar 16, 2018 1:07 am

I've been on Arelith now for maybe 6 or 7 years, maybe even longer, really don't remember when I came and stayed here. But over the years I've done a cleric, a rogue, WM or three, a few fighter variances, and now just a tad over a year ago I've gone Ranger. So many changes have been made. Classes get nerf'd, heck everything gets nerf'd or changed at one time or another it seems. So there I was, a ranger, not over level 8 yet when the changed was made that half elves get dodge for free. I missed out. But later another change was made.... BAM, I suddenly improved in AC by +3 and even though mass camo no longer stacked with Camo, I had another spell that doubled in time. Sweet, I get free regen. Now my little bad Snuggybear bear loses Haste and regen, but you know what, I'm already better than I expected to be when I made the character. And yes, maybe down the road another change will be made that makes him worse than I expected him to be.

But the one thing I've done well with is just go with the flow

At least Arelith is here for me to enjoy.

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MissEvelyn
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Re: Regeneration from iceberries.

Post by MissEvelyn » Fri Mar 16, 2018 7:31 pm

Griefmaker wrote:Sadly, the drive to nerf has driven away the need for reason!
This resonates with many of the changes done in the past year or so.

I also find it odd that nobody is disproving this statement.


Invader_Nym
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Re: Regeneration from iceberries.

Post by Invader_Nym » Fri Mar 16, 2018 8:01 pm

MissEvelyn wrote:
Griefmaker wrote:Sadly, the drive to nerf has driven away the need for reason!
This resonates with many of the changes done in the past year or so.

I also find it odd that nobody is disproving this statement.
After having tested it for a while I stand by my earlier statements. The animal companion, due to the lack of damage mitigation, is now a liability that you have to micromanage to the point that it's no longer enjoyable to use.

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Cortex
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Re: Regeneration from iceberries.

Post by Cortex » Fri Mar 16, 2018 8:24 pm

MissEvelyn wrote:
Griefmaker wrote:Sadly, the drive to nerf has driven away the need for reason!
This resonates with many of the changes done in the past year or so.

I also find it odd that nobody is disproving this statement.
cus theres no need to validate such an unsubstantial post
:)

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Scurvy Cur
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Re: Regeneration from iceberries.

Post by Scurvy Cur » Fri Mar 16, 2018 8:29 pm

Seconding this.

There's no point refuting a post that's devoid of meaningful substance.


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Sockss
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Re: Regeneration from iceberries.

Post by Sockss » Fri Mar 16, 2018 8:40 pm

Pre change: Animal companion is the strongest summon in the game.
Post change: Animal companion is the strongest summon in the game. But you have to use a haste potion to make it even stronger, or maybe heal kit it.

?

Druids remain with absolutely excellent AC, in totem form for levelling, or monolith air.
Druids remain with absolutely ludicrous damage output in fire monolith.
Druids remain with the highest DR threshold in earth elemental.
Druids have exceptional party buffs.

The druid spell list offensively, is not great. Although they perform area control quite well.
Thankfully this team is no longer being used.

Sockss#5567 for nwn mechanics questions.

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afreshstart
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Re: Regeneration from iceberries.

Post by afreshstart » Fri Mar 16, 2018 9:02 pm

Rangers use animal companion as well, and they can't buff it as much as druids can.

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Sockss
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Re: Regeneration from iceberries.

Post by Sockss » Fri Mar 16, 2018 9:35 pm

Rangers can cast GMF, use berries, use awaken scrolls and use zoo potions. Offensively, they'll lack a few ab and damage from a druids trans focused zoo's and AOV, but you can pick boar over bear and minimise some of that stat difference.

+1 regen isn't going to keep your animal companion alive, nor is haste, they have low AC. You had to micromanage them pre-change for the best outcome and you have to do it after.

A druids animal companion should be stronger than rangers imo, anyway.

Also RE: Druids suck.

[25/5 Druid/Ranger]
Dragonshape bronze AC ~ 71 (81 in IE):
10 (base), 20 (dodge), 3 (tumble cc), +23 (56 Modified dex mod), +6 (Deflection), +2 (MA), +5 (Natural - bark), +2 (Armour Skin).

You can grab 2 more if you don't want 4 APR and instead max tumble. 3 more if you can fit UMD enough for ranger armour when you do that.

Dragonshape Red AC (-2 on bronze):
Dragonshape Red AB: 56 (With 15 spare for a 71 True strike spike)
16 BAB, +5 (Epic AB), +1 (Prowess), +29 (Str modified mod), +5 (Staff weapon enhancement) = 56

NB: This is on top of a guaranteed period of KD from hellball.

For pures:

Air Monolith AC is~ 71, or 81 in IE. 46 AB with 20 free for True strike.
Earth is ~34 DR you need to bypass before you can hurt it with the right equip. (Sans elemental chipping damage) With 47 AB (And 20 free for TS).

Druids are very capable. They're also very capable if you embrace the hybrid nature of the class and are able to de-shift in relative safety and pop out some entangle/grease (Which they are immune to).
Thankfully this team is no longer being used.

Sockss#5567 for nwn mechanics questions.

Invader_Nym
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Re: Regeneration from iceberries.

Post by Invader_Nym » Fri Mar 16, 2018 11:36 pm

Stacking 5 berries together for +5 regeneration does help. As it stands, the bear is a glass cannon that you have to baby-sit to keep alive.

Extra attacks also equal shorter fights, which equals damage mitigation.

-4 AC, no regeneration, and a missing attack such that fights take longer.

The change to the berries = complete damage mitigation nerf.

Druid has stat buffs and superior barkskin. His animal companion is going to be superior.
Last edited by Invader_Nym on Sat Mar 17, 2018 12:05 am, edited 1 time in total.

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afreshstart
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Re: Regeneration from iceberries.

Post by afreshstart » Fri Mar 16, 2018 11:50 pm

Well from your post it seems like druids are very susceptible to getting flat-footed. Which shouldn't be that hard to do, considering the true seeing nerf and that they lack see invisibility.

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Lorkas
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Re: Regeneration from iceberries.

Post by Lorkas » Sat Mar 17, 2018 7:36 am

afreshstart wrote:Well from your post it seems like druids are very susceptible to getting flat-footed. Which shouldn't be that hard to do, considering the true seeing nerf and that they lack see invisibility.
Yes but invisibility purge items are available to anyone now. People without access to see invis would do well to note this.

Also, see invisibility and invis purge are potionable, and hence usable even when shifted.

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Sockss
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Re: Regeneration from iceberries.

Post by Sockss » Sat Mar 17, 2018 12:05 pm

Invader_Nym wrote:Stacking 5 berries together for +5 regeneration does help. As it stands, the bear is a glass cannon that you have to baby-sit to keep alive.

Extra attacks also equal shorter fights, which equals damage mitigation.

-4 AC, no regeneration, and a missing attack such that fights take longer.

The change to the berries = complete damage mitigation nerf.

Druid has stat buffs and superior barkskin. His animal companion is going to be superior.
Use a haste potion and zoo potions.

Druid will then have this on ranger, which I feel is fine - a ranger can output more damage than a druid itself (At least pre fire monolith shape):
+2 Natural AC (+1 if you get better pots)
+3 modifier STR/Con/Dex (If the druid has trans focuses and uses 2 potions)
+Regen

The ani comps have always been glass cannons.

I'd agree with Lorkas. (Would +1 if I could)

I'd also like to add that you'd have to fight a very silly druid if they'd let you cornersneak them. A druid absolutely excels if it makes you break combat for any reason - they can harass you with summons, then can shift out of a form and lay persistant aoe's, or heal without a potion, or resummon creatures that you may have killed / been wof'd.

Most druids will also have EDK, which has true seeing itself - something you really don't want to be moving along in front of at -50% speed.

And that's only even if they didn't spot / listen you themselves.
Thankfully this team is no longer being used.

Sockss#5567 for nwn mechanics questions.

Invader_Nym
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Re: Regeneration from iceberries.

Post by Invader_Nym » Sat Mar 17, 2018 2:26 pm

I have to say, the arguments I'm seeing in this thread aren't very charitable interpretations of how the game mechanics work.

Saying "Oh, you have access to expensive rare consumable items" doesn't mean that you are on equal footing with caster classes that have free access to long-duration castings of the spell, and meta-magic feats.

If you think these clickies are so easy to get, why not make them free for everyone? I mean, they're available in such abundance anyway, right?

Obviously making them free for everyone would screw up the economy. The point is they're not easy to get, which is why the idea of making them free seems so unpalatable, and why it's unreasonable to suggest that there's some equivilancy between ranger and the other casting classes.

Invisibility purge seems to suffer from the AOE bug, where the effect sometimes stays centered on your character, and sometimes doesn't. It's an incredibly unreliable spell, and that's coming from a guy who actually plays ranger pretty much exclusively.

Invisibility purge also requires you to be in fairly close contact with the invisible person before the person is exposed, whereas see invisibility doesn't suffer from this constraint.

Lastly, if the 4 AC and the regeneration from the ice berries are so meaningless and insignificant, why are you arguing against them? Isn't that sort of an argument /for/ having them added back? Aren't you sort of arguing that they're not game-breaking and that they shouldn't have been removed in the first place?

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BegoneThoth
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Re: Regeneration from iceberries.

Post by BegoneThoth » Sat Mar 17, 2018 2:57 pm

Sockss wrote: Also RE: Druids suck.

[25/5 Druid/Ranger]
Dragonshape bronze AC ~ 71 (81 in IE):
10 (base), 20 (dodge), 3 (tumble cc), +23 (56 Modified dex mod), +6 (Deflection), +2 (MA), +5 (Natural - bark), +2 (Armour Skin).

You can grab 2 more if you don't want 4 APR and instead max tumble. 3 more if you can fit UMD enough for ranger armour when you do that.
You can just run away from it. Server is full of nooks, doors, hallways, mushrooms and rocks the form can't go past, and you only get three shifts a day. So you either get to risk de-shifting and getting jumped on, or sit there and get pelted with ranged or magic.
Sockss wrote:Dragonshape Red AC (-2 on bronze):
Dragonshape Red AB: 56 (With 15 spare for a 71 True strike spike)
16 BAB, +5 (Epic AB), +1 (Prowess), +29 (Str modified mod), +5 (Staff weapon enhancement) = 56

NB: This is on top of a guaranteed period of KD from hellball.
Same as above. Just leave, form has absolutely no pursuit power and can't enter some areas.

Dragon forms are unfortunately very buff dependent, and have the additional disadvantage of being really awkward to just RP in. This means you basically lose any time you get 'jumped' or caught unprepared.
Sockss wrote:Air Monolith AC is~ 71, or 81 in IE. 46 AB with 20 free for True strike.
IKD spam. It has a disc of 30 tops. Watch that AC vanish. It also does horrible damage. It's perma-hasted so it can run, but lots of things in this game can run that fast for a long time, and with trash disc (which you will have as pure) you die when hit. Even with 100 AC if you fight a 6+ APR melee (such as those TWF kama people we see now or any double-weapon barb) you are going to go down to ikd spam.
Sockss wrote:Earth is ~34 DR you need to bypass before you can hurt it with the right equip. (Sans elemental chipping damage) With 47 AB (And 20 free for TS).
Terrible AC, loses a ton of DR when fighting a bludgeoning weapon (25%!) and is 150% weak to sonic. Just carry a bludgeoning weapon with a sonic essence and watch the form absolutley melt due to its surprisingly low HP pool compared to other druid forms. Spam IKD too, it's AC is so low you'll hit anyway, and if they ever try to shift out as they're dying you will IKD them and their 26 discipline.
Sockss wrote:Druids are very capable. They're also very capable if you embrace the hybrid nature of the class and are able to de-shift in relative safety and pop out some entangle/grease (Which they are immune to).
Shifting out is death. You drop to 40 AC on a good day, and will melt.

Class is in an awful place.
\

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Sockss
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Re: Regeneration from iceberries.

Post by Sockss » Sat Mar 17, 2018 3:21 pm

Just run away works on everything that isn't a monk. It's not a druid only problem.

I'd say DS's were in a better position than any other class in this respect though, as it has the highest chance to land a KD and can additionally guarantee a KD with hellball.

Yes it has its weaknesses, mostly due to its size, but it's far from useless.

RE: Elementals lacking discipline.

Enjoy landing a KD against 81 AC? Then dealing enough damage in that round (Likely less than a round) past its immunities, stacked item immunities and spell DR. All the while dealing with summons, the druid hitting you and a roll-1 get stunned aura. Then factor in regeneration.

It'd be interesting to know how deep your calculations went on this, but I'm going to go ahead and assume that none were done at all.

Earth is not great for PvP, but for certain PvE it rocks. I'd use fire for PvP, since it operates as a better biteback barb, especially when you stack on a death armour pot.

Shifting out isn't death, just don't shift out next to a guy with IKD. If you want to shift out, run laps around your animal companion, force them to deal with that and in doing so give yourself breathing room.

I don't really want to teach you how to play the game, if you haven't learnt it this far it'd be an uphill battle. Perhaps you feel that the initial dragon nerf wasn't needed, because you could just run away from them? Therefore they are weak :)

This was really in response to this "Justify that statement. Include AB and AC values and touch on what part of their spell list that gives them this value.".
Thankfully this team is no longer being used.

Sockss#5567 for nwn mechanics questions.

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Sockss
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Re: Regeneration from iceberries.

Post by Sockss » Sat Mar 17, 2018 3:32 pm

Invader_Nym wrote:I have to say, the arguments I'm seeing in this thread aren't very charitable interpretations of how the game mechanics work.

Saying "Oh, you have access to expensive rare consumable items" doesn't mean that you are on equal footing with caster classes that have free access to long-duration castings of the spell, and meta-magic feats.
They're not rare, hours/level is not a short duration on sub-100 gp pots, druids will have the same level of haste as you (As they can't cast it either) and awaken is permanent.
Invader_Nym wrote: If you think these clickies are so easy to get, why not make them free for everyone? I mean, they're available in such abundance anyway, right?

Obviously making them free for everyone would screw up the economy.
Yes.
Invader_Nym wrote: Lastly, if the 4 AC and the regeneration from the ice berries are so meaningless and insignificant, why are you arguing against them? Isn't that sort of an argument /for/ having them added back? Aren't you sort of arguing that they're not game-breaking and that they shouldn't have been removed in the first place?
It's overpowered when you're a level 4 dude rolling around the brambles.
It's insignificant when you're a mid-teens dude with abundant access to healing kits and haste potions.

It's insignificant in PvE.
Having to take half a round to feed your animal companion a potion, to turn it into a heavier wrecking ball than it already is, is significant in PvP.
Thankfully this team is no longer being used.

Sockss#5567 for nwn mechanics questions.

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flower
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Re: Regeneration from iceberries.

Post by flower » Sat Mar 17, 2018 3:36 pm

Socks is right.

I played and play WM with 8 attacks per round and despite this sheer ammount of attacks if i meet creature o cannot hit, then i pray for any hit actually, not even for IKD.

Good luck waiting for you roll 20 IKD on druid with 80 AC. You somehow forget to count in that druid is not standing and waiting for you to IKD, but is hitting back fully dealing dmg on you, using epic spells and having summons to back him up.

Nym, your complaints on use of consumables are off. In past you complained after duel Briz vs Nym on some of features, and when i told you how to deal with it with one, two single scrolls, you began to say why should you rely on scrolls.

Well the thing is scrolls, potions and consumables make up for balance. Scroll will allow to remove feature otherwise hard to deal with (Dragon summon). Give you immunity (clarity) and thus make up for your save. You forget no class can ever reach values in everything to deal with things on its own, and then we again come down to the consumables, which must be counted in. If you choose to not use it it is your issue, not of class. And i would like to note, you may mistake IMproved Invis for shorter lasting arcane spell giving 50% concealment. THAT ONE cannot be purged but visible effect is same.

Edit: Scrolls can be cheap, but you were refusing to buy even scrolls for making cost :D and welcome to the world of warriors, 80% of their spending is done on consumables, to stay alive.

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BegoneThoth
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Re: Regeneration from iceberries.

Post by BegoneThoth » Sat Mar 17, 2018 3:39 pm

Sockss wrote:Just run away works on everything that isn't a monk. It's not a druid only problem.

I'd say DS's were in a better position than any other class in this respect though, as it has the highest chance to land a KD and can additionally guarantee a KD with hellball.

Yes it has its weaknesses, mostly due to its size, but it's far from useless.

RE: Elementals lacking discipline.

Enjoy landing a KD against 81 AC? Then dealing enough damage in that round (Likely less than a round) past its immunities, stacked item immunities and spell DR. All the while dealing with summons, the druid hitting you and a roll-1 get stunned aura. Then factor in regeneration.

It'd be interesting to know how deep your calculations went on this, but I'm going to go ahead and assume that none were done at all.

Earth is not great for PvP, but for certain PvE it rocks. I'd use fire for PvP, since it operates as a better biteback barb, especially when you stack on a death armour pot.

Shifting out isn't death, just don't shift out next to a guy with IKD. If you want to shift out, run laps around your animal companion, force them to deal with that and in doing so give yourself breathing room.

I don't really want to teach you how to play the game, if you haven't learnt it this far it'd be an uphill battle. Perhaps you feel that the initial dragon nerf wasn't needed, because you could just run away from them? Therefore they are weak :)

This was really in response to this "Justify that statement. Include AB and AC values and touch on what part of their spell list that gives them this value.".
Running away is different vs dragon shape, as you don't need to flee the area often you can just go around some corners or past an object or into a narrow pass and it literally can't follow. It's move-speed is also capped at 50% with haste, and since it can't use wands or cast haste or rage the amount of time it can spend hasted is vastly different then anyone else. So running away from a dragon shaper is far easier and unique.

As for 81 AC, as I said, even with 100 AC you're going to get hit 5% of the time, and when attacks can come at >10 per six seconds you won't have long to spend before you're flat on your elemental Snuggybear. It's pretty simple numbers. Not to mention since they have to hit a 20 to hit you, they can just imp expertise as well, and then you and your low APR pure druid won't touch them at all, meaning they win the long fight 100% of the time.

Shifting out is also death. How much AC do you have in normal druid walking-around form? Odds are you have that second skin on, how much AC do you have? I said 40 erring on the side of being generous, but I would not be surprised if 30's or lower were actually more common. When even low AB builds can hit you 90% of the time per volley, shifting out is death.

Also the nerf was 100% needed, Dragon Shape is strongest when it can buff and toe-to-toe, that's why if you simply deny a shaper that you win.
Good luck waiting for you roll 20 IKD on druid with 80 AC. You somehow forget to count in that druid is not standing and waiting for you to IKD, but is hitting back fully dealing dmg on you, using epic spells and having summons to back him up.
Thats why I mentioned the big APR builds that are popular now between dual-weapon and kama monk assassin. A 4 APR wm is not what I meant, at all.
\

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Sockss
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Re: Regeneration from iceberries.

Post by Sockss » Sat Mar 17, 2018 3:48 pm

So running away from a dragon shaper is far easier and unique.
It's easier, but not unique. you can run away from anything that isn't a monk.
Shifting out is also death. How much AC do you have in normal druid walking-around form? Odds are you have that second skin on, how much AC do you have?
How much AC does one need, if no one is in range to roll an attack on you?
Odds are you have that second skin on, how much AC do you have?
You'd use elven chain for a start, have you- have you played a druid?
meaning they win the long fight 100% of the time
Post math, then we'll continue this discussion.

It'd be interesting to see in a completely roll-based game, how you could get 100% from a melee encounter.

Imagine, if also, a druid could switch on parry and not even IE.
Thankfully this team is no longer being used.

Sockss#5567 for nwn mechanics questions.

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flower
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Re: Regeneration from iceberries.

Post by flower » Sat Mar 17, 2018 3:55 pm

My WM has APR 8 not 4 :)

I think Begone forgets improtant thing.

To succesfulyl IKD on roll 20 you would need to hit with the biggest AB attack.

Discipline 30 + 20+ mod from strength (there is no reason why druid should not get basic 30 ranks, items/CC) is 50+ discipline now add d20 roll.

To be succesfull on IKD you then must roll least 50!! to get die to decide.

If you turn on IMP expertise you cannot reach AB 50 before roll of 20.

And if you try to IKD druid with ab +- 30 plus 20 from lucky hit then good luck, it is just a wet dream of yours.

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BegoneThoth
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Re: Regeneration from iceberries.

Post by BegoneThoth » Sat Mar 17, 2018 4:04 pm

How are you getting 50 disc in a pure druid with only three gear slots available to you
\

Nitro
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Re: Regeneration from iceberries.

Post by Nitro » Sat Mar 17, 2018 4:05 pm

Sockss wrote:
So running away from a dragon shaper is far easier and unique.
It's easier, but not unique. you can run away from anything that isn't a monk.
Step into a doorway, dragonshape can't follow, fighter can.
Replace doorway with two small objects on the ground, same result. It's not so much about running away from a dragonshape as it is standing behind terrain it literally cannot path across due to size.

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BegoneThoth
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Re: Regeneration from iceberries.

Post by BegoneThoth » Sat Mar 17, 2018 4:09 pm

Also I got called into work so math will need to wait.

What numbers did you want exactly. Why an air elemental with 81 ac and 4 apr loses to a 10 apr barb?

Because I fought zug zug on a pure druid more then once and guess what happened when I tried air elemental.
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Sockss
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Re: Regeneration from iceberries.

Post by Sockss » Sat Mar 17, 2018 4:12 pm

You'd have to CC disc, to get monolith as it's not a druid class skill.

The problem is that, a shaping druid build can easily pickup 9/- DR and sit at 35/40% on physical immunity and 9 regen.

So firstly you'd need a 5% to get them over.
Then you'd need to damage them significantly enough for them to still be damaged, by the time the next 5% IKD rolls around.
Then you'd need to consistently do that, until they're dead. Presuming of course they don't zoom off, unpoly and heal, pop a heal kit or really do anything else at all rather than AFK fight.

Then you need to do that, while:
Not rolling a 1 yourself to a will save vs stun and getting chomped by summons.
Not getting chomped by summons & druid on a hellball KD
Not bashing yourself to death on parry.
Thankfully this team is no longer being used.

Sockss#5567 for nwn mechanics questions.

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Sockss
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Re: Regeneration from iceberries.

Post by Sockss » Sat Mar 17, 2018 4:13 pm

BegoneThoth wrote:Also I got called into work so math will need to wait.

What numbers did you want exactly. Why an air elemental with 81 ac and 4 apr loses to a 10 apr barb?

Because I fought zug zug on a pure druid more then once and guess what happened when I tried air elemental.
The math which shows a druid loses 100% of the time.
Thankfully this team is no longer being used.

Sockss#5567 for nwn mechanics questions.

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