Regeneration from iceberries.

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BegoneThoth
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Re: Regeneration from iceberries.

Post by BegoneThoth » Sat Mar 17, 2018 5:00 pm

Keep in mind elemental shield scrolls take a big bite out of druid elemental damage, and once a single ikd hits you will eat a ton of attacks due to losing a boat load of ac for being prone.

Again, when you do little damage, and they do a lot more and pack more attacks, it's a very bad match up against any properly built and played melee.
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Sockss
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Re: Regeneration from iceberries.

Post by Sockss » Sat Mar 17, 2018 5:32 pm

I look forward to the maths, especially the part in which applying a short duration elemental shield reducing the 1d10 companion damage and 1d8 swarm fire elemental damage being a decisive factor in the matchup and being absolutely worth the round it takes to cast.
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BegoneThoth
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Re: Regeneration from iceberries.

Post by BegoneThoth » Sat Mar 17, 2018 5:34 pm

Those would be word of faithed away
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Invader_Nym
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Re: Regeneration from iceberries.

Post by Invader_Nym » Sat Mar 17, 2018 5:36 pm

Invader_Nym wrote: If you think these clickies are so easy to get, why not make them free for everyone? I mean, they're available in such abundance anyway, right?

Obviously making them free for everyone would screw up the economy.
Yes.
The point here is that when something comes at a cost to one build, and it doesn't come at a cost to another build, your argument that the two builds are on equal footing because one build has access to clickies is revealed to be unsound. When I get you to admit that these clickies aren't free, and shouldn't be, it's so that you admit yourself that they come at a significant cost. If the cost were insignificant, then there would be no harm in making them free.

I hear this argument all the time. People tell me that the dragon epic summons isn't that powerful because you can buy a 3000 dollar scroll to unsummon it.

Well, great, that means every time I encounter an epic wizard I lose 3000 gold, and he loses nothing, and he can hit the R button and then summon it again at zero cost, while I have to go out and spend another 3000 to get another scroll. This doesn't even include the transaction cost, which is the cost of me running around trying to track down vendors that sell these scrolls. People draw far-reaching conclusions based on the availability of these clickies.


Invader_Nym wrote: Lastly, if the 4 AC and the regeneration from the ice berries are so meaningless and insignificant, why are you arguing against them? Isn't that sort of an argument /for/ having them added back? Aren't you sort of arguing that they're not game-breaking and that they shouldn't have been removed in the first place?
It's overpowered when you're a level 4 dude rolling around the brambles.
It's insignificant when you're a mid-teens dude with abundant access to healing kits and haste potions.
The main problem with the animal companions, in terms of being over-powered, is all the attacks they get, at top attack bonus, which can be easily solved without making them squishy as hell.

I could previously buff my bear up to 46 AB with 5 attacks: 46/46/46/41/36

Obviously this is wrong, and it's the source of the problem in terms of the animal companion being OP.

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Sockss
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Re: Regeneration from iceberries.

Post by Sockss » Sat Mar 17, 2018 5:39 pm

A round of SR stripping (If you're pretty lucky your opponent doesn't scatter summons. But, like 3-5 in a normal situation) and 1 round of WoF? From your kensai barbarian opponent? (Who somehow achieves 10 APR.)

Even if you assume that summons are a non factor and EDK isn't a thing - and the time taken to dismiss them isn't a thing - and your kensai barbarian can achieve 10 APR abnd cast spells, how would it mitigate a druid's damage in air elemental shape?

I'll just wait for the maths!
Last edited by Sockss on Sat Mar 17, 2018 5:52 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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flower
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Re: Regeneration from iceberries.

Post by flower » Sat Mar 17, 2018 5:46 pm

And how is kensai relevant for balance as path got removed, anyway?

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Sockss
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Re: Regeneration from iceberries.

Post by Sockss » Sat Mar 17, 2018 5:47 pm

Invader_Nym wrote: I hear this argument all the time. People tell me that the dragon epic summons isn't that powerful because you can buy a 3000 dollar scroll to unsummon it.

Well, great, that means every time I encounter an epic wizard I lose 3000 gold, and he loses nothing, and he can hit the R button and then summon it again at zero cost, while I have to go out and spend another 3000 to get another scroll. This doesn't even include the transaction cost, which is the cost of me running around trying to track down vendors that sell these scrolls. People draw far-reaching conclusions based on the availability of these clickies.
If you feel that not dying isn't worth 3000 gold (Or whatever you feel it is), just die?

Or just, avoid PvP if you don't want to do it.
Invader_Nym wrote: The main problem with the animal companions, in terms of being over-powered, is all the attacks they get, at top attack bonus, which can be easily solved without making them squishy as hell.

I could previously buff my bear up to 46 AB with 5 attacks: 46/46/46/41/36

Obviously this is wrong, and it's the source of the problem in terms of the animal companion being OP.
Bonus attacks don't work like that. It'd be 46/46/41/41/36.

The offensive power of the animal companion hasn't been reduced by this, you just have to spend half a round feeding it a potion.

Making the ani comp into a defensive summon at the cost of its offensive power is a bad idea. There's a reason people don't use air elemental summons.
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BegoneThoth
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Re: Regeneration from iceberries.

Post by BegoneThoth » Sat Mar 17, 2018 5:58 pm

I was going to use a thundering rage non kensai half orc dual wielder for the aggressor.

Think thats 8 attacks.
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Sockss
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Re: Regeneration from iceberries.

Post by Sockss » Sat Mar 17, 2018 6:01 pm

Cool! The difference between 8 and 10 is pretty significant though, at least one is achievable on a barbarian, that'll be a big factor in the calculations.
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Invader_Nym
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Re: Regeneration from iceberries.

Post by Invader_Nym » Sat Mar 17, 2018 6:27 pm

Sockss wrote:
If you feel that not dying isn't worth 3000 gold (Or whatever you feel it is), just die?
I think you're in this argument not to move towards a greater understanding, but to win. The point I'm trying to illustrate here is that making a clicky available doesn't automatically entail that everything is balanced, because there will always be the question of /how/ available the clicky is.


Why don't we take your philosophy to the limit and price the scrolls at 20,000? Anyone who doesn't want to pay 20,000 gold to not get stomped by an over-powered summons should obviously just die. No need to think about balance at all, that way.
Or just, avoid PvP if you don't want to do it.
Why don't we just apply your philosophy to the animal companions then? If you don't want to get destroyed by an animal companion, just run away, or avoid PVP if you don't want to do it. No need to actually spend time trying to solve complex problems, or balance things, when we can just use the "you don't like it, run away" philosophy.

Bonus attacks don't work like that. It'd be 46/46/41/41/36.

The offensive power of the animal companion hasn't been reduced by this, you just have to spend half a round feeding it a potion.
If the change is inconsequential, once again, what is the basis of your objection?

You're now arguing that the loss of the extra attack is meaningless, the loss of the AC is meaningless, and the loss of regeneration is meaningless. Well, why not add them all back in then?

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BegoneThoth
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Re: Regeneration from iceberries.

Post by BegoneThoth » Sat Mar 17, 2018 6:36 pm

Did you have any strats you wanted me to include or should I just go with your numbers and assume standard druid buffs
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Sockss
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Re: Regeneration from iceberries.

Post by Sockss » Sat Mar 17, 2018 7:07 pm

Invader_Nym wrote: Why don't we take your philosophy to the limit and price the scrolls at 20,000? Anyone who doesn't want to pay 20,000 gold to not get stomped by an over-powered summons should obviously just die. No need to think about balance at all, that way.
That's not the environment that you play in, though. Scrolls are available and scrolls are relatively cheap.
Invader_Nym wrote: Why don't we just apply your philosophy to the animal companions then? If you don't want to get destroyed by an animal companion, just run away, or avoid PVP if you don't want to do it. No need to actually spend time trying to solve complex problems, or balance things, when we can just use the "you don't like it, run away" philosophy.
Because some people will PvP and not moan about the cost of consumables to do so. Whether you like it or not, consumables are a part of the game and have impact on the mechanics of the game.
Invader_Nym wrote: If the change is inconsequential, once again, what is the basis of your objection?

You're now arguing that the loss of the extra attack is meaningless, the loss of the AC is meaningless, and the loss of regeneration is meaningless. Well, why not add them all back in then?
It's overpowered when you're a level 4 dude rolling around the brambles.
It's insignificant when you're a mid-teens dude with abundant access to healing kits and haste potions.
Last edited by Sockss on Sat Mar 17, 2018 7:11 pm, edited 3 times in total.
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Sockss
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Re: Regeneration from iceberries.

Post by Sockss » Sat Mar 17, 2018 7:08 pm

BegoneThoth wrote:Did you have any strats you wanted me to include or should I just go with your numbers and assume standard druid buffs
I'd assume optimal druid play & equipment and optimal barbarian play & equipment.
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BegoneThoth
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Re: Regeneration from iceberries.

Post by BegoneThoth » Sat Mar 17, 2018 7:39 pm

Right now with a second skin I'm thinking 29 str for the elemental after dispels? Using a druid garland for the regen and a target shield for 4 ac?
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Sockss
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Re: Regeneration from iceberries.

Post by Sockss » Sat Mar 17, 2018 7:52 pm

... Use dwarven shield, addy helm (Or garland) and an elven chain. (Empowering, then using pots to max stats.)

You can +5 MV from a certain NPC to armour.

9/- DR from EDR.

What're you dispelling from a pure druid with a scroll?
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BegoneThoth
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Re: Regeneration from iceberries.

Post by BegoneThoth » Sat Mar 17, 2018 7:55 pm

Stat buffs, Sr, rest is just a bonus. I'd pop a few charges from a spell breach Wand then use mordes.


So you'll be at base stats for all but the first rounds?

Edit; if you want to help me out and compute your ab/ac and dmg so I have an easier time I would appreciate it.
Last edited by BegoneThoth on Sat Mar 17, 2018 8:00 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Sockss
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Re: Regeneration from iceberries.

Post by Sockss » Sat Mar 17, 2018 7:59 pm

A druid would pre-buff before they left anywhere? O_o
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BegoneThoth
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Re: Regeneration from iceberries.

Post by BegoneThoth » Sat Mar 17, 2018 8:00 pm

I mean if you're going unbuffed I'll take it, makes numbers easier.
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Sockss
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Re: Regeneration from iceberries.

Post by Sockss » Sat Mar 17, 2018 8:03 pm

I'm going optimum druid play and optimum barb play.

A druid isn't going to leave anywhere for PvP without being fully buffed - it doesn't have anything that is short duration enough to not pre-buff. Aside from, maybe, II.
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BegoneThoth
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Re: Regeneration from iceberries.

Post by BegoneThoth » Sat Mar 17, 2018 8:14 pm

Oh you had a question mark so I didn't know what you were saying there.

Either way I'm not too worried at this point. Once I'm home I'll stat it out.
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Invader_Nym
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Re: Regeneration from iceberries.

Post by Invader_Nym » Sat Mar 17, 2018 8:31 pm

Invader_Nym wrote: If the change is inconsequential, once again, what is the basis of your objection?

You're now arguing that the loss of the extra attack is meaningless, the loss of the AC is meaningless, and the loss of regeneration is meaningless. Well, why not add them all back in then?
It's overpowered when you're a level 4 dude rolling around the brambles.
It's insignificant when you're a mid-teens dude with abundant access to healing kits and haste potions.
Well then let's add the buffs back for people in their mid teens, where the buffs are apparently totally insignificant, and have the nerf only apply at low levels then, if this is how you really feel.

I don't think this is how you really feel. I think I caught you arguing the berries are both too strong, and totally insignificant, all at once, and you're trying to backwards rationalize it.

I sincerely doubt the developers made the change in response to an epidemic of level 4 rangers cleaning up on the Brambles.

My last two characters are epic rangers, and what I noticed was that in epic, the bear is tougher offensively than a WM, which is too much for a summons. As I said earlier, I think the offense needed to be dialed down. Now the animal companion is so squishy that it no longer feels like a class feature, but a class responsibility.

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Sockss
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Re: Regeneration from iceberries.

Post by Sockss » Sat Mar 17, 2018 9:19 pm

It's insignificant in PvE.
Having to take half a round to feed your animal companion a potion, to turn it into a heavier wrecking ball than it already is, is significant in PvP.
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BegoneThoth
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Re: Regeneration from iceberries.

Post by BegoneThoth » Sat Mar 17, 2018 10:49 pm

are you doing transmutation or the ill advised maximize spell?
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Sockss
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Re: Regeneration from iceberries.

Post by Sockss » Sat Mar 17, 2018 11:04 pm

Empowering, then using pots to max stats.
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Re: Regeneration from iceberries.

Post by BegoneThoth » Sun Mar 18, 2018 2:24 am

Ok lets try this. My awful attempt at math.

Properly build hork barb twf with a dire mace EDR3 21 con

Opens the fight with a disjoint and lobbing word of faiths until summons are gone.

AB is

49 Haste
49 Thundering
49 Main Hand
49 Off Hand
44 Second Main
44 Second Off
34 Third
29 Fourth

Vs Air Elemental 81 AC, AKA barb has to roll a 20 or do nothing.

Probability puts it at about 27% of landing a hit per round, so 1 in four rounds there will be a hit, and because the air elemental will be extremely lucky to break 22 discipline it's going to go down almost guaranteed on every hit but the 8th which is still strongly in the barbs favor.

I think we can say that the air elemental is going to be auto-attacking most of the time because it's an air elemental with nothing to do but pots and auto-attack and its buddies are gone. If the druid runs a bear or other 'strong' summon that summon can be focused for half a round until it dies as it has piss awful AC.

Ele's average hit is going to be around 26.5 damage. However, against EDR 3 and 20 barbarian levels, plus hork 5% dr, plus 10% barb dr, PLUS 10% dr from gear, PLUS a good old 5/- sonic essence cuts that down dramatically, as well as the ol % immunity from barb, puts that damage to

3 physical and 6 sonic. A hit. So 9 damage a round. He also isn't dumb and packs and quaffs prot elements, so now it's down to just 3 physical. He can keep quaffing these too, they cost next to nothing, the druid doing 3 damage an attack is hilarious.

Lets assume math goes normally and the last attack of the 4th round from the barbarian is the knockdown that hits and it knocks down. Feel free to run this longer and see how much damage the barb takes if it takes 9 rounds or something before he rolls a 20 on ikd.

Lets also be generous and assume EVERY SINGLE attack from the air elemental hits (despite being a mid 30 ab due to imp expertise) in that time because this barbarian, while raging, isn't taking the fight seriously so he just eats every hit and 3 damage is so negligible I don't feel like modeling it out, barb will also have -25% due to concealment which the druid cannot afford to go into human form and dispel and I didn't figure that in either because the druid is doing effectively 0 damage.

64 damage from the elemental in those rounds (lets assume the barb isn't quite on his game and misses a few ele prot potions and it lapses and eats a few AAO's in that time), assuming every attack hits (which it won't) vs a health pool of like 900 or so. If everything in those four rounds hits minus conceal, it cant even out-damage heal-kit spam.

So now the 4th round knockdown finally hits and the ele is knocked down. It just lost all its dex ac, and all its dodge ac, and its tumble ac, and is at like 25 ac. Lucky for him he thinks he can tank this due to EDR and the 25% from the form and another 15% or so from gear.

So barb dmg per hit, all of which should now hit barring 1's.

4.5 weapon dmg (1d8 avg dmg) + 4 enh + 14 str + 5 power attack (why not you only hit on a 20) +6 weapon spec + 5 sonic essence + 7 cold (1d6 cold temp essence 100% weakness) + 4 constitution + 11 2h melee barb bonus

60.5 damage per hit, 36 after 40% immunity, 27 after EDR 3.

8 attacks in that round and he just did 216 dmg. Not to mention, if knockdown spam is done during that round, there's a good chance the last hit in the last flurry will knockdown again with no time for the poor druid to take any actions as it gets up and falls down again (but lets not assume the chain happens). Barb could also be a supreme optimizer and slam a true strike pot right before the knockdown ends but lets not go nuts this is a lot of math already.

This is the tricky part then, because the druid, after eating a volly, is in a bad place. It can eat at absolute most 3 of these rounds before dying even with some regen assuming it's able to actually get up after one round of KD, but the barbarian only has to get that druid to 50% HP, at which point time stop into the melee blender again will obliterate them over the next 9 seconds. The druid could spam heal pots, but with no way to actually do anything to the barb he's just saving off the inevitable. Even if he runs the barb out of rage, which isn't too likely as the druid will be dead by then and will eat more attacks as a result, it's simply a losing battle. Meanwhile the barbarian e might even get lucky with his damage rolls and actually put the druid at <50% after a single round of knockdown and then time-stop into game over.

If things somehow get bad for the barb he can do fun things like disengage, invis pot, and heal kit spam. The druid would need to shift to put up a true seeing and with 50% bonus movement on the barb that's not wise, it could quaff a pot, but doing so gives the barb about a round or two before he can expect to be attacked.

Feel free to let me know what you may do different to avoid this fate, keeping the pure druid limitations in mind.
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