Regeneration from iceberries.

[Cortex]

Haste and Thundering aren't both at top BAB, my statement a few months ago was incorrect.

Both attacks would apply at the end of the round, one at 49, the other at 44.

[BegoneThoth]

With it all being vs a 20 it's irrelevant here.

[Lorkas]

Probability of the barbarian getting at least one hit in a round should be

Code: Select all

1-(0.95^8)=0.34

So 1 hit every three rounds.

Also, it is possible for the druid to remove concealment based on improved invis without shifting out of they've acquired invisibility purge potions. There is little risk to the druid to enter melee and feel out how things will go before fleeing if necessary. Permanent haste on the air shape facilitates that.

[BegoneThoth]

sick I always thought I didn't know how to do math and now I know. Lets keep it at 4 rounds though just to throw the druid a bone.

Also invis purge only works when the aura is broken. You can invis inside the purge, the air ele would need to move away and come back flat footing it.

Either way it's not too relevant here as we've reduced what was earlier described as;

You somehow forget to count in that druid is not standing and waiting for you to IKD, but is hitting back fully dealing dmg on you

down to three damage a hit.

[afreshstart]

Also a melee chracter can just pop invis potion/HiPs and use KD. It should work as well.

[One Two Three Five]

1. If I hit someone and did 3 damage I'd be across the server instantly, pretending it didn't happen, not swinging against them till they got a lucky 20 roll

2. Sitting around in a permahaste form waiting for an invis potioned person to hit you isn't super smart

[Sockss]

What is the barbarians AC?

Note 1: The druid can simply push w and eat 0 attacks, while the melee is constantly at the risk of rolling 1 to stun aura. (Or cheese fire elemental against a non barb)

Note 2: A druid would engage with swarm and ani companion, optimally, only when the melee is stunned and low enough to be killed - generally speaking this would be when the barbs rage is down and stunned. You'd keep them out of sight until that was the case - why would a druid open with them? You'd extend this nuke potential by unshifting, laying SoV/grease/entangle, hballing yourself to ensure 3 sec KD into the next round and enabling you to reshift without risk.

Note 3: Your elemental isn't using parry in direct combat either, but IE, for some odd reason? (68-74, if you take an ESF - which I did on mine )

Note 4: You forgot protective essence on the damage calculation, generally speaking you'd use 5/- of the elemental damage type you're vuln against. Granted if we're assuming optimum numbers for the barbarian they'll be using an essence which the druid doesn't have a resistance against - but cold is ill advised.

Note 5: 216 isn't enough to kill the druid, or bring it to 50% that will be regenned in a couple of minutes of holding W and fishing for stuns. (Why reengage on lower health when you don't have to?)

Note 6: Permanent haste is very strong and you can get distance enough on a barb to lay down at least a single spell. (Note that you can cast immediately after unshifting and shift back, optimally done by popping a haste potion while in elem shape so you're hasted after coming out. You'll need to factor in your barbs reflex saves every turn or so, then every round post that)

Note 7: See invis / invis purge is a thing.

I think we can say that the air elemental is going to be auto-attacking most of the time because it's an air elemental with nothing to do but pots and auto-attack and its buddies are gone. If the druid runs a bear or other 'strong' summon that summon can be focused for half a round until it dies as it has piss awful AC.

From the unimaginative approach to this and overlooking important mechanics (stun aura/invis pots/spellcasting/permanent haste) I think this is the crux of why you've failed playing a druid and feel they're bad. And, lets face it, your opinion has been formed because of this very narrow personal experience, rather than any reasonable number crunching.

That we're even having a discussion that something is weak and useless, while simultaneously debating whether something specifically designed to counter it, in fact does counter it, is pretty telling of the classes overall power and depth.

[afreshstart]

Not sure it's a good idea to trying to run away from someone with 8 apr while they are spamming KD.

[Sockss]

You have permanent haste, so long as you move correctly they won't roll any attacks on you - but will still roll every round to stun aura. You're also not flatfooted doing so.

[TimeAdept]

Running means you lose, btw

hasted air elemental and hasted barb are the same speed: non monk PCs are capped at 50% bonus movespeed

[Sockss]

I would say running for distance to cast is fine, or circling around to pop will saves on a stun aura.

Have you ever fought a (good) mage that stood in a melees face?

Equal speed and proper movement means no one can melee you, so long as all you're doing is moving. The difference for cast distance lies in an elementals speed being permanent.

I feel like this is turning into some sort of PvP academy. >_>'

[BegoneThoth]

What is the barbarians AC?

It's irrelevant as druid damage is so low. Assume everything hits.

Note 1: The druid can simply push w and eat 0 attacks, while the melee is constantly at the risk of rolling 1 to stun aura. (Or cheese fire elemental against a non barb)

You get one stun a round, and it's DC14 or something and the barbarian has a big bonus to will while raging, considering you'll eat a hit in 3 rounds (as was pointed out) and do 3 damage a hit, it was not a concern.

Also stun blocked by bind blank it's mind effecting and has to be re-applied every time you transition which really goes against your flee strats you bring up later, I didn't factor it in because it's irrelevant.

Note 2: A druid would engage with swarm and ani companion, optimally, only when the melee is stunned and low enough to be killed - generally speaking this would be when the barbs rage is down and stunned. You'd keep them out of sight until that was the case - why would a druid open with them? You'd extend this nuke potential by unshifting, laying SoV/grease/entangle, hballing yourself to ensure 3 sec KD into the next round and enabling you to reshift without risk.

Yeah swarm/dragon knight/etc get blasted by disjoint and word of faith until gone, if DK fear hits it can be prayed off. Remember the druid deals ONLY 3 damage a hit and can literally be ignored. Animal companions have like 500 health on a good day too and 40 or so AC at best. It's going to die in 1 round while the druid flails away doing 3 damage an attack.

Note 3: Your elemental isn't using parry in direct combat either, but IE, for some odd reason? (68-74, if you take an ESF - which I did on mine )

Not really relevant, but if you want to parry, it's not going to do much as the damage is still low as hell.

Not to mention you drop out of imp expertise to do it and suddenly are in a much more dangerous position. Or the fact that when you hit parry stance the barb can just heal kit until you get bored and try and hit him for more 3 damage attacks.

Note 4: You forgot protective essence on the damage calculation, generally speaking you'd use 5/- of the elemental damage type you're vuln against. Granted if we're assuming optimum numbers for the barbarian they'll be using an essence which the druid doesn't have a resistance against - but cold is ill advised.

If you say so. It's 5 less damage a hit, not really enough to change anything.

Note 5: 216 isn't enough to kill the druid, or bring it to 50% that will be regenned in a couple of minutes of holding W and fishing for stuns. (Why reengage on lower health when you don't have to?)

Why assume you have 'minutes?' The correct math has you eating a knock-down every 3 rounds, that's 18 seconds between 170 damage bursts at normal luck and not assuming you get chain knock-downed which can happen, you do not have minutes.

Also mind-blank, again, no stun.

Note 6: Permanent haste is very strong and you can get distance enough on a barb to lay down at least a single spell. (Note that you can cast immediately after unshifting and shift back, optimally done by popping a haste potion while in elem shape so you're hasted after coming out. You'll need to factor in your barbs reflex saves every turn or so, then every round post that)

Barb haste is also 50% move-speed. With only an average of 18 seconds between knockdowns I don't consider that a safe option at all, moreso if you get caught de-shifting at the end of a combat round and cast, meaning you have nearly 12 seconds before you can do anything on your character.

Why are we factoring in reflex save here? Why would you use 'save' magic when you actually have spells that would be useful here if you're going to shift out?

Not to mention if you're shifting out you can be utterly dominated by terror-rage which is very scary as your druid form can't get mind-immunity.

Note 7: See invis / invis purge is a thing.

Yeah, I mentioned it. Remember that invis purge only breaks if you break the aura, so if they pop imp invis while in melee and you want to invis purge it you need to aura-wiggle the barb flatfooting yourself in the process. If you're still in parry mode here you may be in trouble if this is attempted.

Still the damage calculation from the druid assumes a 100% hit rate so just assume no invis if it makes you feel better.

I think we can say that the air elemental is going to be auto-attacking most of the time because it's an air elemental with nothing to do but pots and auto-attack and its buddies are gone. If the druid runs a bear or other 'strong' summon that summon can be focused for half a round until it dies as it has piss awful AC.

From the unimaginative approach to this and overlooking important mechanics (stun aura/invis pots/spellcasting/permanent haste) I think this is the crux of why you've failed playing a druid and feel they're bad. And, lets face it, your opinion has been formed because of this very narrow personal experience, rather than any reasonable number crunching.

Stun aura? MIND BLANK.

Even if for some reason the barb didn't use a lesser/normal mind blank scroll, stun aura is one will save every 6 seconds. Even if you stun, what's the plan? Hope he doesn't -pray? Stun is at the end of a round too iirc, so if you attempt to swap out after a stun and cast you're going to eat attacks because you will be attacked before you can shift back in. Additionally you seem to gloss over the '3 damage' aspect here. You can run, sure, but it's a fight you literally cannot win so fleeing is your only actual option.

That we're even having a discussion that something is weak and useless, while simultaneously debating whether something specifically designed to counter it, in fact does counter it, is pretty telling of the classes overall power and depth.

Barbarian isn't made to counter druids, basically any melee could do this to one, it's just high ab and UMD stuff.

That's why the class is, imo, dumpster city.

Fire and rock elemental are actually worse off.

Not sure it's a good idea to trying to run away from someone with 8 apr while they are spamming KD.

It's not, moreso when ALL your ac is dex and dodge which you can easily lose, which happens frequently if you flee through a transition and get chased. You just may eat a whole flurry while you both stare at a load-screen and your characters fight.

You have permanent haste, so long as you move correctly they won't roll any attacks on you - but will still roll every round to stun aura. You're also not flatfooted doing so.

Incorrect, MIND BLANK beats the aura.

I'm also confused here, you run away, 'move correctly,' aren't flat footed despite clearing your action queue, and somehow the barbarian rolling a 1 for a 6 second stun because he isn't mind-blanked? Also I don't even know if it works like that but can't mighty-rage just purge stun? Or a -pray? If it's that important?

I would say running for distance to cast is fine, or circling around to pop will saves on a stun aura.

Have you ever fought a (good) mage that stood in a melees face?

Equal speed and proper movement means no one can melee you, so long as all you're doing is moving. The difference for cast distance lies in an elementals speed being permanent.

I feel like this is turning into some sort of PvP academy. >_>'

Some mages do fight by not moving, by picking big con races, building con and using saveless spells, and defending themselves with spells like acid sheath. These people just keep sheath up and spam heal and heal-kits, usually doing more damage to their attacker then they take in turn, re-applying any damage shield that gets breached off and popping max IGMS when their opponent drops low enough for a spell-execute. If done correctly it can be very frustrating to fight against.

Also, how do you run? They have the same speed. Unless you wait for rage to end....? And just hang out in melee range for the full duration not getting a 20 rolled against you?

Equal speed and movement do NOT mean nobody can attack you either. Not only can you lose a ton of time in a transition and eat several attacks because your pursuer loaded faster then you, but you also have to deal with getting hung up on small rocks that have collision and/or running into a mob that just makes your character do a 180 turn and attack.

Either way I think I'm done here, math shows it and is more then generous to the druid allowing every attack to hit. A druid doing 3 damage a round is a threat to no one and it still dies if it gets KD'd twice. Stun aura is not a threat with mind-blank, -pray, and (i think) mighty rage, and considering how many times you brought up a DC-14 will vs stun on a mind-blanked target I don't think you understand this.

[Sockss]

Presuming you have a finite number of MB scrolls, as everyone does, aura is still a factor. The time taken to reapply is also a factor and, again, creates an opening for a druid to shift out and cast.
(If you want to presume infinite consumables a druid would just chug HP's all day - no one would win, because no one has any potential to nuke the other to 0)

You can't mords/wof something if you can't find it - or if they're near a LoS break point. PT1 ensure they're safe until you engage them. The point raised was not that a bear will die if you attack it, but the druids damage and nuke potential and the crux of winning the fight doesn't lie with the druid, but its summons.

Parry is very relevant here, if you don't attack the druid, then it's a draw and you haven't won. An extra 22 damage also factors in. Considering you'd then be taking 9 attacks on average before the druid was KD'd, you're looking at reasonable parity between HP lost.

Dropping out of expertise doesn't put the druid in a more dangerous position. You're still at a 5% chance to hit. Against this specific build, you'd never bother with it.

You have minutes for regen, or as long as you want, a barbarian isn't going to catch a druid to roll attacks if the druid doesn't want it to.

Deshifting is an entirely safe option, put whatever time you need in distance between the barb and the druid. Barbarian is harder to do it against as they have MS in rage and aren't entirely reliant on haste. You can also use the hellball delay to do so, if you need to - but it's not advisable as you reduce your nuke potential.

You should be factoring reflex here and FoM application, if you're caught in grease kd / entangle with MS decreases, then you're going to die. A druid can strip mind blank and SoV with impunity as soon as you're subject to these effects. Once you're SoV'd (At least the second time) you're done. Unless of course you've got a whole bunch of epic feats flowing from somewhere.

You'd have to be very unlucky to fail the terry rage save and, even still, you'd have to be pretty silly shifting out in its AoE.

Stun is at any point in the round if they enter the aura, but rolls at the start if you're in the AoE.

You're not flatfooted if you move properly. Your action queue isn't cleared, you're moving. (http://nwn.wikia.com/wiki/Flat-foot) Mastering the basics would be a good idea.

A better mage would do the same thing and not bother getting hit, but have CON to fall back on if they're backed into a corner.

Equal speed does mean no one can attack you, unless; as you said, you're bad and hit small rocks or mobs... I can't really fathom why you'd do that though - even if you did, the chance of landing a kd in the provoked flurry is low.

I wouldn't encourage any sort of transitioning as a PvP tactic, it's completely exploitative.

A barbarian is the only melee class, outside of monks and SS's, that has a move speed above potions and wands. A melee that is reliant on wands, or pots, will spend most of its time chasing a fire elemental who simply walks away from it, or circles it, racking up fire aura damage. Barbs are the only thing that a druid might potentially have trouble with from a melee class (Aside from SS's, which I feel are a much better counter than barbs to druids); due to a combination of big base damage, temp hp and APR and the inability to cheese fire elemental with equal speed.

Like a lot of people, you also don't take into account the time taken to buff and reapply buffs, or use scrolls offensively in PvP. Dismissing summons outright because they 'can be mords'd and wof'd", or an ani comp because you can kill it in a round or two, is again very telling.

Your maths doesn't show a 100% win chance (In fact, it doesn't show any percentage win chance, because it's half-baked) and, as a not so big secret, it never will. Such is the nature of a die based game with auto success and failure.

I think I can agree to end the discussion here, because this is turning into a "git gud" scenario on my side.

To anyone along for the ride, druids have exceptional versatility, are the best defensive class right now and are absolutely face roll for PvE. You also have an absolute exceptional nuke in the form of summons, be patient and wait for your openings.

[BegoneThoth]

Nothing is ever a 100% win chance in nwn as a 1 always fails and a 20 always wins.

But I'd say the barbarian has a 95% chance of winning.

Also mind blank lasts minutes you would only need one perhaps two. Considering I agreed to assume you quaffed pots until you got 7 in all physicals and then emerged to fight I don't see how it's an issue, or how the barbarian buff time which is seconds compared to minutes on the druid is fair at all.

Either way this convo is done. Three damage is not threatening, nor is someone whose main strategy is to run.

[Sockss]

It's not unusual for a druid to quaff sub 100gp pots before they leave for anywhere.

You've failed to grasp the damage output from the elemental is not the deciding factor here. It is disabling and summon nuking.

We've gone from 100%, earlier in this thread, to an unsubstantiated 95%.

We have at least, made some progress.

[BegoneThoth]

It was never 100%, nothing can be 100% in nwn.

And there won't be a disable. There also won't be summons, the DK is far and away the most threatening part of the druid and its morded/banished easily same as every other time. WoF has no save they just poof with no Sr and Sr is on the breach list at like 11 iirc. It's gone.

I don't get why you're so hung up on the will vs stun. Mind blank proofs against it.

[One Two Three Five]

Yalls theater of the mind druid vs batman barb fight is good and hilarious and perfect, and I thank you for it, but, like:

Regen berries?

Also, honest question, spellsword is a 6 month nerf-or-kiritos-head crusade, but unkillable batbarbs that will win any contest, apparently, with anime-level attack-spam, that's fine?

[Sockss]

Yes. I'm aware that 100% doesn't exist in this scenario, but that is contrary to your previous posts in this thread. (100% does exist in NWN though, it depends on the scenario)

Maybe I'm wrong and you're right. Maybe a low reflex save, summons, breaches, EDK natural SR, durations and time taken for actions are never a factor in PvP.

[BegoneThoth]

You really don't need to be a barb to do most of that stuff, as most of the counter play is just UMD.

Also socks if you want a good strategy, get as much ac and conceal as you can in caster form (use displacement over invis), hit them with a transmutation buffed inferno then spam drown. You'll either win or die by the time you get done with the drowns, but even if you die extended transmutation inferno is a death sentence.

[Sockss]

I'll er, keep my PvP to assured wins rather than risky all-in strategys. Thanks for the pro-tips though!

Also, honest question, spellsword is a 6 month nerf-or-kiritos-head crusade, but unkillable batbarbs that will win any contest, apparently, with anime-level attack-spam, that's fine?

They're in a very dominant position for melees at the moment, as they have a huge amount going for them. The only real weakness they have is in reflex disables, which is somewhat mitigated by praying.

I'm pretty confident they'll get looked at when EE is over and done with.

[magistrasa]

Soooooo what square should I be stamping on my bingo card for this derailment?

Give bears berries again. I wouldn't wish player 1 tool micromanaging on my worst enemy. The furries have enough on their plates, living in constant fear of barbarian attack.

[BegoneThoth]

Ugh I don't know. I think my math rant alone is like three squares.

Also give back berry haste but take away the regen stacking.

[Miaou]

We struck Bingo. This thread has gone off its topic a long time ago with very little conversation actually regarding the subject of berries and feedback to them. While some discussion was given to the change and desires of the community was given, this thread has been long over for the discussion that it was intended for.

If you wish to discuss Barbarians, for whatever reason they were brought up in a thread about iceberries, please make another thread in the appropriate boards.