Arelith

I look at stuff like this and all I think about is how much Neverwinter fails to really capture the alien appearance a tiefling is meant to have:

That's a 4e tiefling. 3.5e tieflings explicitly do not look like that, because they're generations and generations removed from their taint.

To be fair, that is very much a 5th edition-style tiefling. They zipped right through the uncanny valley and out the other side with them.

that's not really what uncanny valley means I dont think

either way I much prefer the pronounced tieflings to the ones that are just human with extra stats

Susitsu's picture would be a little extreme for here, but I do feel like Tieflings will have more fun with the race, if they pick a physical attribute which is outwardly apparent. You miss out on a lot of great roleplay, if you either don't RP your hellsih attribute at all, or pick one which is only ever perceptible when you want it to be. Having the freedom to hide your race with perfect reliability quickly leads to hiding it all of the time, and if you're not here to be persecuted, why bother with a Tiefling in the first place?

BegoneThoth wrote:that's not really what uncanny valley means I dont think

Admittedly it's generally used in reference to humanoid robots, dolls, that sort of thing, but I figured it could apply in this instance, where we're talking about near-human tieflings v. the example susi posted.

And honestly? I kinda prefer the more obvious traits myself, but that's just not the setting we're in.

I couldn't find a reference picture for the 3.5 sourcebooks, but this is what they look like in the Pathfinder players handbook:

Notably very few traits that stand out, pale skin but nothing outside of human ranges, and a set of tiny for horns.
EDIT: Here's the monster manual image for tieflings (and Aasimar) in 3.5:

I blame the extra stats for the surge.

Why this last Picture reminds me one of those i met recently on my drow

shadow gnomes or ice dwarfs as greater!

Admittedly, this is just the kind of tiefling my groups have defaulted to in the past for 3.5 and even before in Pathfinder, the only tiefling I played with went a bit of the extra mile. Over-all, all tiefling related interactions and treatment has gone over as them being just "monstrous," so it created that assumption and expectancy for me.

Plus Ive been shown that picture like a billion times so I just sort of went "there is the classic tiefling, yes."

Though as far as I'm concerned, the ability to have goat-legs and tail already jumps the hurdle.

I prefer the disfigured theme of tieflings over the nicely horned and fine chiseled ones.
Like this beautiful piece from 3.0-5 I believe. Especially the left one does it for me.

I just don't see why it's so hard for a planetouched PC to have some line in their bio showing their heritage as a requirement for playing the race, or do something like abnormal skin color/wings/tail etc.

What other race can 100% hide among other races? None.

It's like, why? The big downside to planetouched is supposed to be a social downside, but if the only way to tell is by examining a corpse then you don't have a downside you're just a human or an orc with an extra +2 to something; you still keep your base-race feats and lose any stat bonus/minus they have (big with half orc).

I really don't see what 'value' an indistinguishable race like that brings to RP when it's played 100% incognito and not acknowledged at all and can't be discovered outside death.

Nitro wrote:I couldn't find a reference picture for the 3.5 sourcebooks, but this is what they look like in the Pathfinder players handbook:

Notably very few traits that stand out, pale skin but nothing outside of human ranges, and a set of tiny for horns.
EDIT: Here's the monster manual image for tieflings (and Aasimar) in 3.5:

[x] Pale
[x] Female
[x] Dark Hair

This has truely eveolved into the ultimate Barradoor thread.

BegoneThoth wrote:I just don't see why it's so hard for a planetouched PC to have some line in their bio showing their heritage as a requirement for playing the race, or do something like abnormal skin color/wings/tail etc.

What other race can 100% hide among other races? None.

It's like, why? The big downside to planetouched is supposed to be a social downside, but if the only way to tell is by examining a corpse then you don't have a downside you're just a human or an orc with an extra +2 to something; you still keep your base-race feats and lose any stat bonus/minus they have (big with half orc).

I really don't see what 'value' an indistinguishable race like that brings to RP when it's played 100% incognito and not acknowledged at all and can't be discovered outside death.

For once, I agree with with guy.

Outsiders are meant to be notorious, and races are meant to be huge parts of your roleplay. If you want to hide something as basic as that, you either go to the UD where no one cares if you are not one of the races of the surface, or you invest heavily into bluff, perform, and prepare to get your disguise blown over and over and keep constantly running away for trying to hide something as essential as your very nature.

I love tieflings (more than aasimars, love those too), but I don't see any value in a tiefling that is just played like a human with a blemish and nothing more. If you could play the exact same character without the subrace, then there was something wrong along the way.

That's really it, what's the point of a reward subrace you keep secret not through IG bluff, but through the fact nobody can ever know if you don't say a word?

Just force a description. It's a reward race with bonus stats. Just force those extra-planar characteristics in the description. If you get ostracized by normal people, good, it's what you signed up for and what the setting demands.

I personally consider no-way-to-know tieflings on the same level as pale skinned drow or duergar or snirfs. It's that detrimental to the setting.

I've never been really convinced that being special was somehow better than being mundane.

The core of your character is how they interact with other characters, how they speak and act. Not their horns, or tail, or feathery shoulders.

If your character is just their race, then there was something wrong along the way. It's like saying stereotypical Scot-dwarfs who talk about beer all the time are interesting. There is more to roleplaying than a character sheet. There is more to roleplaying than "personality: dwarf."

Yes, quite. Also see 'Trope Talk: Planet of Hats' for this topic.

But back to said topic - I am content with planetouched being easier to achieve. Years before I played on another Persistent World which prohibited Planetouched and Warlocks (it was NWN2, *shudder*) to a few select slots per SERVER.

I really enjoy that player can get the opportunity to play Fiend/Fey-locks and be presented with the consequences of doing so rp-wise.
In the same way I enjoy that planetouched are now easier to obtain. Not because of cute horns and such, but for the roleplaying potential they bring into the mix. Besides being a tryhard-snowflake.
I find that for example tieflings, as well as 'locks, as well as Half-orcs are no novelty, but an aspect of how oberbearing darkness and/or savage culture intermingles with stereotypical feudal society.

Though it is often more the audience perceiving a planetouched (in this regard) which makes them household items and not that impressive anylonger. I believe I see more people play out that this or that character hates half-orcs, simply because it hates orcs, but does not act similarly in front of tieflings. But both of those half-races had no say in their existance.
I don't know, am I helping?

It's certainly not about the notion of being special or mundane.
A human is not a dwarf. A duergar is not a gold dwarf. A tiefling gold dwarf is not just a gold dwarf.

Adding an outsider to the template doesn't make it inherently better, but it gives you a chance.
It gives you a chance to add a new layer of depth to a character; it creates contradictions, conflict, it creates desires and fears, hatreds and passions. It gives you access to a whole new array of tools to write your story that is otherwise unreachable.

The horns, the tail and the unholy presence makes not the character, but they are indicators of how you should be treated. This is something you have to signal other players so that they can know what is your place in the setting. The same way you were given these tools, you have to give them back to be used against, and with you.

BegoneThoth wrote:Just force a description. It's a reward race with bonus stats. Just force those extra-planar characteristics in the description.

A good suggestion. However, tiefling traits are not purely restricted to visible physical differences. They may be able to intuitively speak the language of their planar heritage. They may be unable to reproduce. They may be unable to enter "holy ground", or at least unable to linger without pain and discomfort. They may wrestle with mental and emotional traits more extreme than normal humanoids as a side-effect of their ancient ancestor. These are traits that cannot be written into the description but are still viable for the race.

As for the original topic: no comment. I wasn't privy to the decision, but I can brainstorm a lot of reasons why it was done. I'll wait awhile and see what else is coming before I decide for myself.

Tieflings (And aasimars!) have other aspects that effect their personality/behaviour (depending on their specific heritage) that isn't restricted to appearance. I've played a 5% tiefling that was hidden from 97% of the server but he was still ostracized or mistrusted by the rest of the population because something was very clearly not right with him.

The experience of playing him has me opposed to forcing these races to show themselves in descriptions since their feature/disfigurement can be something as simple as hot skin or more or less fingers which is easily hidden (with a few skill points) and doesn't make up the entirety of the character.

The new (newer since I played!) buffs to these races certainly shouldn't go unnoticed in descriptions and rp, though.

-S

I thought the issue being made was about tieflings looking too monstrous for 3.5/people's taste (half-fiend reference, though such a thing would really call for something ike and big bat wings, not the simple stuff our tieflings have,) not people avoiding the rp of their race.

This took an odd turn.

susitsu wrote:This took an odd turn.

These are the Arelith Forums, after all... If it didn't, we'd have reason to be scared.

The "arelith effect" is more that you have your oldtimer 3e guys who think anything more than horns equals half-fiend, and your modern 5e dnd guys who believe the 4e/5e tiefling (picture above) is the accepted norm. I guess neither is wrong, really. It's just two cultures of dnd players clashing.

Take an additional arelith sprinkle of salt that the issue began because people couldn't be bothered to put descriptions or outright play their race (??) and what you get is the removal of a race to be forever locked behind a 5% roll.

Voicing my subjective opinion: I'd probably lean in the favor of artistic license as opposed to cookie-cutter orthodox mentality.
Deciding whether some aspects of RP might become too silly/immersion breaking at some point is the prerogative of the DM team.
What's the point of discussing hypothetical scenarios/arguably pointless mechanical limitations that would ever affect only a minuscule fraction of the player base?