Reward Change

[JediMindTrix]

If we really cared about making 5% something really rare, then it should be moved to level 30 and a requirement of having had the character for at least X amount of real life years, and been logged in at least xx amount of ticks. Replace X with whatever the devs feel should truly be 5% rare.
Not to mention the bonus from wealth shouldn't count when rolling for a Major Reward.

Snuggle a Bugbear that

[susitsu]

The irony is that a lot of mechanic savvy people I know did NOT take planetouched because they didn't think the dismissal/banishment vulnerability was worth it.

sure hasn't slowed down the tiefers chowing down on slavers

[Iceborn]

The problem with the 5% rolls is that anyone can get that these days, especially with the gold inventory value added. It's not really 5% anymore, when you can up the chances to get something better.

If we really cared about making 5% something really rare, then it should be moved to level 30 and a requirement of having had the character for at least X amount of real life years, and been logged in at least xx amount of ticks. Replace X with whatever the devs feel should truly be 5% rare.
Not to mention the bonus from wealth shouldn't count when rolling for a Major Reward.

Then, they could focus on making Greater Rewards great but not completely ridiculous, like the dragon race, and leave the 5% epicness for the lucky ones.

If we care about keeping awards as a healthy mechanic for the community, all the races and mechanical choices that we could get from them should be either equal or less powerful than the races that you can select normally. Never better.

The dragons were the apex point of What Not To Do; they were tragically too powerful by all means, which only disadvantage was their slow leveling. What was even worse than that was that they were chosen mostly for their mechanical power, and most dragon characters at the time were PvP machines with questionable degrees of roleplay that varied between lackluster and non-existent.

Good roleplay does not need complex mechanics; mechanics are mere cookies that should make the game more enjoyable; those that want to actually roleplay a specific race (and in most cases, are the ones that will actually bring characters to life and create good stories), will play whatever they feel like regardless whether it's optimale tamale or not.


The major award is fine as it is because you have to bring your concept to the DMs, you have to put EFFORT into getting it approved, and once it's approved you are going to be measured to held up certain standard of quality.
It can backfire, sure, but at least there's a filtering screen and not a "Dragon" button.

[RedGiant]

I think we're off topic on a lot of dragon hatred.

Lets not forget a healthy percentage of dragon characters were cheated and later banned from the server. I would not take this group as a roleplay norm.

Also, while dragon has some nice humanoid form perks (and that was enough for many)...all they really were was a totem button. While physically impressive...sorta (oddly the implementation mostly suggesting monk synergy), this also cut off a whole lot of magic use, damage potential, etc. This is partially why I had a bag of PC dragon heads on one of my toons.

In short, I think 5%s are fine and would like to see more options. Yet your point is well taken that mechanical advantage and rarity only become special when inhabited with effort or skill.

[Ironfoot]

I am sure with Enchanted Edition will be waaaay many options for ppl to pick with great and even others rewards, important for devs is just to balance those with great reward.

And i am with Red Giant on this, for server sake Tieflings should be outcasts by default. Also not be able to enter on Cordor main gates either undrer escort or via other planar gates. They still can achive what they did before just with some effort.

I played both surface and ud and cant say i seen any of tiefling characters a lot, seems players turn to other toons at some point. I would like to see more suggestions to UD great rewards as i like to see Andunor as melting pot of ud races, and for surface i would like to see more nature characters what we already have wih feys, forest gnomes and wild dwarfs but...why they are not played?

[susitsu]

The idea of comparing a character with some bonus base stats to dragons in any way is absolutely over the line and ridiculous.

Go read up on Thay and every surface region full of tieflings.

[Sab1]

It's only natural that you'd have a lot of outsiders, and this was a design failure:
The Greater Award is at 20%, which mathematically should mean that one out of every five players that roll, at least, should get one.

Now, the options to using it were:
Deep Imaskari, which doesn't seem particularly interesting (I'd play one, but I'm a little, pretty snowflake-born)
Ogre, which is even less compelling due to the race seeming to have a very limited kind of roleplay.
Outsiders, which could be meshed into nearly any concept, any place, and seem to be generally more powerful than their base race.

If you had to choose, which one would you choose?
Tieflings and aasimars are amazing, but they suffered from being the only real choice in the greater award tier.

I suggested to push them down to Greater again, but to make them request-only so that there are no times of overpopulation.

Ohh gods no, keep them at higher reward tier. But I can't stand the request only system. The few times I requested a Shifter, I never even got my idea out and was simply told numbers are being limited, and that was basicly that.

Most the dragons that weren't banned simply didn't last long as that ecl was murder. Now with the easier lvling system now it might be different, but I had always felt once the excitement of dragon wore off that many of the dragons would of left anyway once the coolness phase was over.

[RedGiant]

Go read up on Thay and every surface region full of tieflings.

Using Thay...a place that makes Sibyad look like Light Keep (prefall) by comparison...and oh by the way is ruled by a lich who commands an undead army with vampire generals, doth not your case make.

Actually, maybe Light Keep (post fall) is a good example. That, Manfreds, and Mourn are all rather Thayan-esque. New Tiefling starting locations!

[One Two Three Five]

You're using post-spellplague/4th edition lore again, RedGiant.
Not your fault, finding 3rd edition lore outside of the sourcebooks is getting rougher. But you're still using the wrong version of Thay.

[RedGiant]

Correct me if I'm wrong but Szass Tam was around in 3e...still a lich....and knocking off zulkirs?

[Thanatosis]

Szass is not the "supreme leader" of Thay until 4E; beforehand it's still 9 zulkirs all ruling as a sort of oligarchy.

[TimeAdept]

Several Zulkirs are assassinated in 3.5, and Szss sets up the framework for what he later does in 4e, but he doesn't reveal his master plan until then, yeah.

[Ork]

Kobolds are monsters. Tieflings aren't monsters. I don't understand.

[MissEvelyn]

I think the problem is the way Tieflings are widely accepted by most player characters in big cities and crowds. No one bats an eye.

It's not a Tiefling problem. It's a roleplay problem. And no one wants to tell anyone how to roleplay, but it would be in the spirit of this server to have a rational fear and/or prejudice towards those who are partially spawned from devils and demons.

[Xanos950]

I think the problem is the way Tieflings are widely accepted by most player characters in big cities and crowds. No one bats an eye.

It's not a Tiefling problem. It's a roleplay problem. And no one wants to tell anyone how to roleplay, but it would be in the spirit of this server to have a rational fear and/or prejudice towards those who are partially spawned from devils and demons.

In Forgotten realms, Tieflings -are- widely accepted by most inhabitants in big cities and crowds, though distrusted. They're -not- monsters.

Honestly it feels like an arelith-thing to me that tiefling has to be treated like a half-demon, which i agree is a rp issue with people mixing up the various d&d editions and their respective lore.

[MissEvelyn]

In Forgotten realms, Tieflings -are- widely accepted by most inhabitants in big cities and crowds, though distrusted. They're -not- monsters.

You're right. Let me reiterate. They're not just accepted, they seem to be embraced and trusted extensively. Even half-orcs get more squalling than tieflings, or so it seems.

[Seven Sons of Sin]

No, the problem was the normalization of tieflings to the point where being prejudicial towards them (which is fair game in 99% of Faerun) was suddenly grounds for being called a bigot and subject to ridicule. This only compounded the issue when "do not judge base off of race" became a normal catchphrase for the seemingly ever-tolerant majority who saw prejudice, discomfort, and "othering" as unacceptable when interacting with tieflings.

The problem was never in their appearance (most of the time), the extent of how they are trusted, or otherwise, it was in how onlookers suddenly decided that being a Banite was inextricably worse than a tiefling, and to say otherwise was folly.

Tieflings were basically just victim to a sudden resurgence of comfort roleplay, and progressive anachronisms, really. If I may be so bold.

[BegoneThoth]

No, the problem was the normalization of tieflings to the point where being prejudicial towards them (which is fair game in 99% of Faerun) was suddenly grounds for being called a bigot and subject to ridicule. This only compounded the issue when "do not judge base off of race" became a normal catchphrase for the seemingly ever-tolerant majority who saw prejudice, discomfort, and "othering" as unacceptable when interacting with tieflings.

The problem was never in their appearance (most of the time), the extent of how they are trusted, or otherwise, it was in how onlookers suddenly decided that being a Banite was inextricably worse than a tiefling, and to say otherwise was folly.

Tieflings were basically just victim to a sudden resurgence of comfort roleplay, and progressive anachronisms, really. If I may be so bold.

Indeed. There was rp pressure from players warning other pc's not to end up on "the wrong side of history" about tiefling treatment.

[PinataPlethora]

You're right. Let me reiterate. They're not just accepted, they seem to be embraced and trusted extensively. Even half-orcs get more squalling than tieflings, or so it seems.

The current RP climate does suck pretty hard for anyone who wants to experience the hardships of being different.

We need to get past the modern ideal of universal acceptance and embrace classic Faerunian racism. (but only the IC stuff, please)

[susitsu]

It's a roleplay problem. And no one wants to tell anyone how to roleplay, but it would be in the spirit of this server to have a rational fear and/or prejudice towards those who are partially spawned from devils and demons.

Hearing these sorts of things legitimately distresses me.

Like, the fact that you think this is the problem.

Lets break-down the ""tiefling problem."" Don't worry, this isn't going to be Septire long.

1. Tiefling treatment: SSoN put it well, though I don't quite like the word 'victim' there. I think that there isn't a problem with comfort roleplay. I think it makes sense to bring modern elements deeply into the roleplay world because lets be real, roleplay is a coping mechanism. Roleplay is stress relief. Roleplay is fun. And not only that, it allows people to explore thoughts freely. It lets them experience a tiefling friendly setting if that's what the roleplay moves towards.

And guess what, it did. It happened through roleplay. There have been a number of lowkey tieflings and someone NOT SO LOWKEY that really proved their place in Arelith and made characters who interacted with them came to hold the ideal that tieflings should be given a chance.

Now, this was certainly in addition to the modern thinking that ""affects"" people's roleplay. I agree! I think that some new characters react to tieflings too casually with no reason to. Or even huggy, but I think that was more about trying to make the tiefling feel welcome.

However, you're wrong to think there's no bad treatment.

In a setting where people are more supportive of tieflings, a lone one is an easy target. And it's really good roleplay, actually. Walking around alone as an open tiefling is like being "halt" bait. I mean it happens a lot. If somebody can find the chance to stop you in the middle of the road, they probably will try to.

It's really interesting actually. In the end, people might not see coming the results of these interactions due to the more guarded nature of most tieflings.

2.Tiefling appearance: Now I say creative freedom is absolutely everything, and the idea that Arelith, a land where gnolls live in the Underdark and speak Undercommon for generations now and has its own vast history inclusive of setting-specific gods should at all be forced to stick to content of one edition is ridiculous, and that the fact is this server should really start expanding on its lore more to specify and be inclusive of content from more editions when it comes to things like the races, gods, and even events occurring in other lands, all being included in a progressive update on the wiki, as there is some wonderful content spread out there and Arelith is clearly beyond its time-warp.

Can somebody say run-on sentence?

I mean our warlocks are fractured 4.0 lore IIRC.

3. Roleplay problem: You are absolutely, one hundred percent, RIGHT! It is a roleplay problem. So I guess you better deal with it in roleplay, and I defer you to SSoN for your perspective on things-

Tieflings were basically just victim to a sudden resurgence of comfort roleplay, and progressive anachronisms, really. If I may be so bold.

I mean really, there's some questionable looking tieflings walking around right now. Give it time.

[Nitro]

2.Tiefling appearance: Now I say creative freedom is absolutely everything, and the idea that Arelith, a land where gnolls live in the Underdark and speak Undercommon for generations now and has its own vast history inclusive of setting-specific gods should at all be forced to stick to content of one edition is ridiculous, and that the fact is this server should really start expanding on its lore more to specify and be inclusive of content from more editions when it comes to things like the races, gods, and even events occurring in other lands, all being included in a progressive update on the wiki, as there is some wonderful content spread out there and Arelith is clearly beyond its time-warp.

Taking this part only because I find it the most egregious. There's a good reason why Arelith sticks firmly to 3.5 lore, and that's continuity. If you start taking from 4 and 5e you'll find not only inconsistencies, but outright contradictions. If we were to look at 4E lore on tieflings for instance, they're not the result of fiendish inbreeding somewhere up the family tree, but a direct descendant of an empire of tieflings, created via fiend pact. An empire that never existed prior to 4E.

And second, creative freedom is not everything. Setting integrity is more important than any ones individuals entertainment. Just because I'd want to make a Chaotic Good paladin lich of Tyr doesn't mean I should be allowed to because it allows me to exercise my creative juices, no more should tieflings be allowed to make what looks like half-demons when they're explicitly playing what is several generations removed from whatever fiendish source in their blood, because it hurts our setting and detracts from its integrity.

[BegoneThoth]

I'm just of the opinion that some things, paladin vows, druid codes, and race-specific behavior should be enforced from a DM if someone slips, by something stronger then a RPR reduction.

[The GrumpyCat]

This thread is either going around in circles, or diverging wildly, so I think it's time for a lock.

With that said here are some closing thoughts from myself, and the Team.

For the most part, Tieflings/aasimar were changed back to 5% awards because there was just so many of them. That is all.

Personaly, I've never had an issue with Tieflings choosing to have horns/tails. However, if they do take such recognisable traits, they should be prepared to face IC backlash. If you want to look monsterious, then be prepared to be treated as such.

That being said, Tieflings are NOT monsterious. They're very similar to Halforcs in that manner, only a little more so. They're disliked, but not entirely ostriszed from society.

And as a personal note - I've don't actually have an issue with characters, or some characters, being 'accepting.' You wanna play snuggy with a Tiefling? Ok that's fine. The main thing I (and other Dms) do find irksome is is a backlash against other characters rping the (quite reasonable) dislike/distrust of Tieflings.

In short - if you want to play That Guy who trusts and loves Tieflings even though they're the literal spawn of evil? Not a problem. I mean it's not top notch rp in all likelyhood, but it's fine.
But please do not be the guy that goes 'You should love them for who they are! Racist! Bigot! Tiefling Rights!' - allow other people to fulfil an aspect of their roleplay which is, in fairness, a sensible and very reasonable part of the setting.