Bat Totem

[RedGiant]

- The Bat Totem no longer grants permanent True Seeing. Instead it grants +12 Listen and five casts of Amplify per day.

So, does this qualify for a rebuild, because I would have taken listen had this been the original deal?

* Edit: Also, listen is not a druid skill, so this is kind of a terrible deal? Or are existing bat totems grandfathered? If not, see above, which now implies multi-classing?

*Edit, Edit: Also, mine seems to now have no true seeing and no amplify?

[strike=answered]

[yellowcateyes]

The absence of amplify on your subrace ability token is a bug and a possible fix is in the pipeline.

[RedGiant]

Thanks! This answers several of my questions.

I guess the large question that remains is, rebuilds? The perk is hardly useful without the skill.

As a design point, this almost excludes Bat Totems from pure classing if they want to take advantage the perk. Enhanced detection also seems a bad trade for Epic Monolith Shape when druids can still cast true seeing (albeit in greatly reduced fashion). I suppose some few specialists may still opt for it in the future. I now roundly regret it on mine, but could probably still salvage it with some admin mercy.

[yellowcateyes]

The +12 Listen bonus, plus +20 Listen from amplify equals +32 Listen or near full skill investment. Add the druid's natural WIS bonus and the difficulty of buffing Move Silently, and the Bat Totem druid is a capable detector even without actual skill points spent.

A pure druid would do fine combining the above with cross-classed Listen.

I imagine there are many characters who would like a rebuild to reassign skill points following the changes to detection. Bat totem characters were particularly affected, but no more than the many characters who were relying on Truesight in lieu of skill investment.

[RedGiant]

This same character has already been knee-capped by Dragon Shape changes, had feats wasted that no longer work or are now superfluous (improved crit: unarmed strike, GW I, GW II, and GW III), and now has a long standing totem barter involuntarily renegotiated for a sometimes magically boosted listen in the 30s to 40s?

With all due respect, what situation exactly merits a relevel if not this? Cumulatively, my character is ruined.

viewtopic.php?f=23&t=14958

[Hunter548]

This same character has already been knee-capped by Dragon Shape changes, had feats wasted that no longer work or are now superfluous (improved crit: unarmed strike, GW I, GW II, and GW III), and now has a long standing totem barter involuntarily renegotiated for a sometimes magically boosted listen in the 30s to 40s?

With all due respect, what situation exactly merits a relevel if not this? Cumulatively, my character is ruined.

viewtopic.php?f=23&t=14958

With all due respect, if you play the same character for eight+ years, especially one who is/was one of the most egregious powerbuilds in Arelith's history, you should expect to eat a few nerfs.

[Tourmaline]

It probably still would not make you happy.. But I would suggest, perhaps, that existing bat totems be allowed to switch to another animal if they wish. Or have the totem and penalties removed.

[RedGiant]

With all due respect, if you play the same character for eight+ years, especially one who is/was one of the most egregious powerbuilds in Arelith's history, you should expect to eat a few nerfs.

I wasn't aware bat totem + dragonshape was a power build, but point granted. I'm okay with server balance decisions. I've even relevelled this character completely once already, without redress. I'm just really tired of doing this over and over again. I realize this is an Admin decision, but the stated criteria for their consideration is, "Only big changes, that thoroughly impact existing PCs in a negative way." To me, this feels like we are sooo there. I would really like their take on the matter.

It probably still would not make you happy.. But I would suggest, perhaps, that existing bat totems be allowed to switch to another animal if they wish. Or have the totem and penalties removed.

At this point, any charity or salvage options are welcome.

[MalKalz]

This wasn’t a significant modification to Bat Totems. It’s true sight and bat totems were given plenty of stuff in return. There was also numerous mentions prior to this that TS would be removed from the Bat Totem shape.

I do not see a reason for a rebuild personally. But again, it’s up to Irongron and Dunshine.

[RedGiant]

This wasn’t a significant modification to Bat Totems. It’s true sight and bat totems were given plenty of stuff in return. There was also numerous mentions prior to this that TS would be removed from the Bat Totem shape.

I do not see a reason for a rebuild personally. But again, it’s up to Irongron and Dunshine.

As Hunter has noted, I've been playing a bat totem since bat totems came out. While there have been calls to nerf true sight for the 9 years I've been playing on Arelith, I can't think this is or was 'fair warning.' In fact, the most recent change were more or less roundly rejected by the admins on previous occasions.

viewtopic.php?f=26&t=773&p=7254&hilit=bat#p7254

I'm not here to argue the changes to true sight, in fact, I don't really mind them. The point is that bat-totem detection was changed from an ability to a skill boost. No existing bat totem in their right mind would have put skill points against what their inherent ability granted for free.

After crunching the numbers, I think Yellow Cat Eyes is right, and even a cross class investment could be useful. So I don't even have an issue with the 'new deal' for bat totems.

But I do disagree with YCE that Bat Totems are the same as any other class that would like to respec in light of detection changes. No other class traded 4 str/4dex/4con for a detection ability and had the deal changed on them in a reimagining that, while necessary, invalidates their functionality.

I'll try to stop beating the horse here, but I think the points made by the staff deserved a thoughtful reply.

[Dr_Hazard89]

I don't know about this update, but with the amount of crappy feats and stuff OP has from all the other druid changes, I think this particular person should be given a rebuild.

That's my opinion.

[RedGiant]

Here's a discussion question while waiting on the admin answer, should there be one.

I just checked today and the amplify effect is still not implemented. As is clear from above, sans bat totems rebuilds being offered to everyone (though I appreciate the thought above Dr.), I don't think the current deal is the way to go, i.e. skill boost instead of an ability.

I guess my question is, since we are still in beta, would the staff considered something in between?

What I mean is the game has a blindsense feat, generally found only on monsters/NPCs, which replicates heightened animal senses such a vibration sense, echolocation (i.e. bats), etc. I'm wondering if there is a short range version of this which would keep the bat totem bargain based around an ability, while still giving stealthers a strategy to deal with them. This still leaves bat totems as top tier detectors, which they should be, but it wouldn't ruin all existing characters.

Looking for the win-win-win here.