True Seeing

[Wordless Truth]

I play both stealthers and casters at the moment.

The TS nerf helps stealther classes (which is good), but it also helps your cookiecutter who just needs an invis potion and something to make you lose LOS.

Is it possible to change the way it currently works to only work like that against stealth?

I don't see how TS should be that bad against your everyday invisibility potion, when See Invis or Invis Purge are, in essence, cheaper and now more effective.

[If Valor Were Inches]

Maybe have TS also give you a lingering see invisibility, which lasts as long as TS lasts. The rest of it is as it is now, an instant sort of scan for stealth.

But why would you not have see invisibility up as well? They can easily work in tangent making the above criticism moot? They're available as wands, so if you can use one, you can use the other.

Plus having a second TS would also counter it?

[Wordless Truth]

The lingering See Invis seems sensible in my opinion.

Why not just cast TS and See Invis OR TS twice? Because you don't have time to cast two spells just to see a hasted WM charging at you. Granted, See Invis would suffice in that case.

TS is a 5th circle spell, as opposed to See Invis (2nd), and Purge Invis (3rd). I feel it should pay off if you block that spellslot.

But yeah, in general I'm happy that stealth-types got it better now.

[Lorkas]

Does TS -spot- hidden person?

In deep past, once TS was out, the person became hidden again. Did something change?

If the hidden person is under the effects of Invisibility, then they will vanish when TS falls.

If the hidden person is in stealth, they will remain visible when TS falls. As a general rule, once a stealther is seen by any means (not heard through the listen skill), they remain visible until LoS is broken somehow.

[flower]

With TS change, what with HIPS now active IG? Is not HIPsing with current true seeing a bit overshoot?

[Lorkas]

With TS change, what with HIPS now active IG? Is not HIPsing with current true seeing a bit overshoot?

HiPS only fires when you enter stealth, and is on a 12s delay after you leave stealth, so the caster had that amount of time seeing the stealther at least.

[BegoneThoth]

I'd prefer an hours a level see invis vs the +10 spot.

Mostly because the sudden +10 spot will beat disguises that wern't able to be beaten earlier, and that whole situation is just going to be a headache for anyone unfortunate enough to be involved.

[Cortex]

At least you can see people with the SFX.

[Sockss]

I don't think any stealth mechanics, or true seeing mechanics have changed at all.

If you've detected a sneaker, through whatever method, they'll be visible until they break line of sight or HIPS (although on Arelith you won't be able to HIPS until you leave stealth and wait for the CD). This is regardless of whether your detection skill changes, or you lose True Seeing. (So polymorphing in and out of umberhulk shape, for example, is fine!)

If you've detected someone with True seeing they're seen (for all intents and purposes it'll be as if you've spotted them, as opposed to 'listened' them).

[CragOrion]

Extended Spell metamagic doesn't seem to affect duration of the TS effect of the TS spell

[yellowcateyes]

Extended Spell metamagic doesn't seem to affect duration of the TS effect of the TS spell

Metamagic will only affect the +Spot effect of the spell.

[Astral]

I'd prefer an hours a level see invis vs the +10 spot.

Mostly because the sudden +10 spot will beat disguises that wern't able to be beaten earlier, and that whole situation is just going to be a headache for anyone unfortunate enough to be involved.

Worry not.
They code it not to include disguise checks when they add it to stuff, like the Kensai +10 spot who doesnt effect breaking disguises.

[Iceborn]

I'd prefer an hours a level see invis vs the +10 spot.

Mostly because the sudden +10 spot will beat disguises that wern't able to be beaten earlier, and that whole situation is just going to be a headache for anyone unfortunate enough to be involved.

Worry not.
They code it not to include disguise checks when they add it to stuff, like the Kensai +10 spot who doesnt effect breaking disguises.

Can I get this one confirmed by a dev?

[yellowcateyes]

The Truesight bonus to Spot is applicable to disguises.

[Nitro]

I actually really like that part, since it finally gives us a longer-lasting buff for penetrating disguises that isn't quite as metagamey as popping a clairaudience/clairvoyance before examining dudes since you get the truesight boost for way longer so you can just leave it on.

[Astral]

The Truesight bonus to Spot is applicable to disguises.

Really? But it ~is~ possible to code a Spot bonus not to effect disguise checks right? Pretty sure my kensai never broke any disguise. Either way, I think including disguises in this Spot bonuses is actually legit and fits the idea of the spell.

[yellowcateyes]

Yes, the kensai Spot bonus does work differently in that it does not affect disguise-breaking.

[CragOrion]

Metamagic will only affect the +Spot effect of the spell.

Clearly. Can we fix that please?

[yellowcateyes]

It's not a bug.

[CragOrion]

Can we fix it anyway?

[JediMindTrix]

It's not a bug.

1) That's pretty counter-intuitive
2) Seems a little like overkill

[Ramza]

Well, it all comes down to stacking. As a spell that gives +10 to spot and listen already exists. Do people forget that Clairaudience/Clairvoyance is a thing? But to get back on point, if the bonus from this spell and the bonus from TS stack. I can see that it might need a bit of work.

[susitsu]

It's an interesting balance choice I can understand. If literally a second of True Seeing is enough to ruin a stealther's approach, then two rounds is just a nightmare.

[Red Sunset]

Well, it all comes down to stacking. As a spell that gives +10 to spot and listen already exists. Do people forget that Clairaudience/Clairvoyance is a thing? But to get back on point, if the bonus from this spell and the bonus from TS stack. I can see that it might need a bit of work.

Well it would take a round or two to stack though, but interesting that you mention clairaudience. I was pondering on this spell myself. I seem to recall arguments that +10 spot -and- listen on clairaudiance was not very useful because one it was round based duration (so is true seeing) and two because +10 wasn't all that much in the scheme of things

I'm real curious why I read that +15 spot on a round based spell doesn't run afoul of the same round based worries. That +15 just like the +10 (and you're only getting +5 more for a sixth level spell versus a third) isn't even close to the +20 you get for amplify (first level spell) which is now a much longer duration than round based if I'm recalling the updates right.

Now granted listen only helps with stealth and spot breaks disguises too, but my point is more if a round based +20 listen wasn't useful enough why would any round base spot spell be much different?

Also if true seeing isn't going to provide some sort of round based see invisibility after the initial first round, would it make sense to take a look at invisibility purge? The spell description says it lasts turns per level, but last I used it it only purges the area of affect on casting. I suppose that could be related to the same issue that battletide has where it gets wonky if you move after casting it. However I have noticed that any monsters casting invisibility purge seem to have turn based duration. You could cast improved invisibility after the initial purge and a round later the spell will fire again and remove concealment.

[JediMindTrix]

I've never used Invis purge as a PC but Crinti mobs use it and it strips invis after the initial firing.