True Seeing

[Dr_Hazard89]

I have to admit I'm a bit biased, because I love stealth characters and even though I don't have one right now, I've been dying to make a new one. At first when I read the update I thought "Woohoo. Rogue time!"

A bit of a suggestion ... True Seeing is a powerful spell that lets you see through invisiblity/illusions/shapechanges and all that good stuff (not mundane disguises). Could all that be worked into the game mechanically now that we have all the cool new description stuff? For example if you have true seeing you could tell not only that the troll you're looking at is not a real troll, but that it is specifically Bob the Halfling. A mundane spotter wouldn't be able to tell who the creature truly is, but a person with true seeing could.

True Seeing does not help you see creatures that are just hiding using normal stealth or using mundane disguises, but in NWN it does. The spot bonus isn't really a helpful amount, unless you have a dedicated spotter. If we're going to nerf true seeing for stealth sake, I'd much rather see the spell become an RP tool and the improved version of see invis that imo it should be, and have clairvoyance become the primary spotting spell vs mundane stealth.

Another opinion I'd just like to throw in there is about spells with very short durations. I've never liked very short lasting spells because this is a very old and clunky game and I play from a laggy country. It feels frustrating and frantic to try and do things with 'good timing' as if this was some sort of PvP-designed game. It's really not. The skill ceiling in this game is made of meta-cheese littered with shards of broken immersion.

Having said that though, I'm not complaining or anything. Maybe it's a great change and I'm ignorant. Just thought I'd give some feedback in the feedback section. Maybe this belongs in the suggestion section. My post might be a bit of both, but I'd like other people to post feedback on what they think of the change.

tl;dr
very short duration spells make me sad
rulebook true seeing is cooler
happy about the buff mundane stealth chars got

edit: putting some smiley and winky faces and stuff so you know I'm chill.

[Lorkas]

It's best to think of the true seeing aspect of this spell not as a short-lived buff but as an instantaneous effect now, to be honest.

It's a spell that reveals all stealthers in LoS at the moment when the spell is cast. To tell the truth, that's still an amazing spell for many circumstances. The difference is that you can no longer just sit in TS mode if you prepare enough copies of it (or if you are a sorcerer and can just cast it as long as you still have slots).

For characters in invisibility, it tells you that you need to cast See Invisibility or Invisibility Purge (yay for those being more useful!), but for characters in stealth it means they have to find a way to break LoS--you'll keep being able to see them until they do so.

[susitsu]

I like what's been done so far, and I quite like the suggestion of taking it all closer to the book.

I do feel that it should retain at least a UV and See Invis aspect for the full duration, as a means of quickly applying it to oneself if not already warded with either when initially you required the LoS reveal. I would also like it to let you see characters in Sanctuary for the full duration, but I think that's directly tied to how True Seeing functions in NWN.

The only reason dragons have True Seeing in NWN is because actually simulating the fine details of a dragon's senses, from DM discretion fun that ranges all the way from smelling magical items or spells (yes, thinking of you smaug,) to a deep dragon pressing its head against the ground to hear literally every single noise in the Underdark, in every direction, for miles around, is just not easy.

[Cortex]

what the hell where did this thread go previously

[Dr_Hazard89]

Is it time to revisit warlock balors? Now that stealthers are in a MUCH better place, would it be fair to give balors their natural true seeing back (like all the NPCs have)?

I know I bring this up from time to time and I'm annoying... but that's how it's going to be, lol.

I don't even have a warlock btw!

Also shapechange into a dragon will give you TS but dragonshape won't. Can we expect more nerfs to come, will things stay as they are, or perhaps even give dragonshape a huge +spot/listen?

[One Two Three Five]

Ah yes, we finally fix TS, and re-adding bioware TS to more monsters is somehow a good priority?

[Astral]

I do feel that it should retain at least a UV and See Invis aspect for the full duration

Last time I checked (in 2012 or something) they did exactly that in Amia. True Seeing = UV + See Invis + 20 spot. With how gear used to work there, I felt like stealthers were pretty balanced. My most successful character in pvp in that server was a sorc/ranger with 110 buffed spot check, which is 100% troll build in Arelith.

I absolutely LOVE that divination focuses are tied to the duration of the REAL true sight effect.

Overall I like the mindset behind this change. However I'm not sure, from items perspective, that stealthers wont be completely undetectable beyond the first round. The reason I suspect that is because all stealthers will build dex but spotters rarely build wisdom. Also take into account that there are SO many ways to break LoS with spells so the stealthers can instantly reapply the stealth after the first round is over.

[Dr_Hazard89]

Ah yes, we finally fix TS, and re-adding bioware TS to more monsters is somehow a good priority?

Or we could give them perma see invis, and also change the NPC balors so that they have see invis. infact I'd like to see most mobs with vanilla nwn true seeing with see invis and +spot instead.

I do feel that it should retain at least a UV and See Invis aspect for the full duration

Last time I checked (in 2012 or something) they did exactly that in Amia. True Seeing = UV + See Invis + 20 spot. With how gear used to work there, I felt like stealthers were pretty balanced. My most successful character in pvp in that server was a sorc/ranger with 110 buffed spot check, which is 100% troll build in Arelith.

I absolutely LOVE that divination focuses are tied to the duration of the REAL true sight effect.

Overall I like the mindset behind this change. However I'm not sure, from items perspective, that stealthers wont be completely undetectable beyond the first round. The reason I suspect that is because all stealthers will build dex but spotters rarely build wisdom. Also take into account that there are SO many ways to break LoS with spells so the stealthers can instantly reapply the stealth after the first round is over.

UV + See Invis + more spot, sounds good to me.
Along with the magical disguise breaking idea.

[susitsu]

To be fair, with a 1d20 added to their roll, spotters don't generally need a stat investment to keep up. At least I think there's a lot of people who don't get ESF Hide and/or MS.

[The Greater Good]

Yea. 33+15 from true sight+10 'average' roll (10.5 I think? but whatever) is 58. There's all sorts of fun modifiers, too: http://nwn.wikia.com/wiki/Spot

[Lorkas]

To be fair, with a 1d20 added to their roll, spotters don't generally need a stat investment to keep up. At least I think there's a lot of people who don't get ESF Hide and/or MS.

The stealther does get 1d20 also (with ties going to the spotter). The big advantage that spotters have is that once they beat a hiding opponent on a single spot vs. hide check, the stealther is revealed until they break LoS again.

[susitsu]

For some reason, I always thought the "defender" didn't get a roll in these.

[The Greater Good]

Yeah, they're opposed checks of skill+d20+modifiers, the stealther makes their roll, which then becomes the detect 'DC.' You roll your stealth every 6 second, or once a round. The detector then rolls their detect skill against this DC five times per second, or 30 times a round. The system kind of seems to favor the spotter, who given four seconds should in theory hit every number between one and twenty, but I don't think a 20 roll auto-passes on skill checks. But if you've got decent spot you should be able to hit most stealthers given enough time and modifier-fiddling.

[Lorkas]

Yeah, they're opposed checks of skill+d20+modifiers, the stealther makes their roll, which then becomes the detect 'DC.' You roll your stealth every 6 second, or once a round. The detector then rolls their detect skill against this DC five times per second, or 30 times a round. The system kind of seems to favor the spotter, who given four seconds should in theory hit every number between one and twenty, but I don't think a 20 roll auto-passes on skill checks. But if you've got decent spot you should be able to hit most stealthers given enough time and modifier-fiddling.

The spot and listen rolls also happen only once per round, but are re-checked 5 times per second in case modifiers change. For example, if the stealther starts moving, then the game checks if that causes the stealther to be detected with the current round's rolls.

20 is never automatic success on any skill, including hide/MS/spot/listen.

[susitsu]

The fine details of that are good to know. It's not something I ever thought to look further into.

[JediMindTrix]

I really think True Seeing should have a CL See Invisibility effect.

EDIT: And extend should increase the True Seeing effect to 2 rounds.

[BegoneThoth]

Did Dragonshape, Umber Hulk, or Shape change Dragon lose perma true sight?

[yellowcateyes]

Polymorph / shapechange sources of Truesight are currently unaffected by the recent update.

[Nitro]

I actually like the changes to truesight, as it's now way easier to breach disguises with an application of truesight.

[Lorkas]

Did Dragonshape, Umber Hulk, or Shape change Dragon lose perma true sight?

Dragon Shape forms lost true seeing some time ago, if I'm not mistaken.

[dallion43]

This is a change that many shards did to help hiders. In itself that is good.

But, basically you just forced most caster PCs without available spare SPs to put in spot, not to mention the ESF +10, to rebuild from 0.

P.C
On other news, Ultra-vision wand prices just spiked.
To more news, Monk/ASSa/SD stocks broke the stock market, and they had to declare *computer difficulties* until the end of this trade day.
The damage bonus is Assassin Class Levels - really? You know how will it look on any monk build? Not to mention it is magic damage.

[Morderon]

I actually like the changes to truesight, as it's now way easier to breach disguises with an application of truesight.

Yes and no.

Yes if you already have it up for reasons/habit.

No as it's a short duration spell and if it's cast only because you see the (disguise) tag, well that's metagaming.

[susitsu]

The TS change is by no means damaging to the degree you suggest it is, if at all.

[Nitro]

I actually like the changes to truesight, as it's now way easier to breach disguises with an application of truesight.

Yes and no.

Yes if you already have it up for reasons/habit.

No as it's a short duration spell and if it's cast only because you see the (disguise) tag, well that's metagaming.

Well, if you suspect someone is not who they claim to be, tag or no tag it makes sense to cast a spell to help you put them under greater scrutiny.

[flower]

Does TS -spot- hidden person?

In deep past, once TS was out, the person became hidden again. Did something change?