Rogues: The Class Left Behind

[Nitro]

Being a skillmonkey is literally everything.

Quick answer while I'm at work? Put out massive amounts of ranged dps within 30 ft of your target as a melee character using weapons that do 1d3 damage with no focus or specs in them and crippling strike them while you're at it.

Putting skillmonkey aside, because other classes can still dip into Rogue to get access to any skills they might want to be an excellent dungeoneer, that leaves us with this 'massive' DPS under theoretically ideal conditions. Which is to say low AC targets that you can reliably hit with your 3/4 BAB, a maximum of 3 times per round instead of the dippers four, and which completely loses all potency against undead, constructs and Palemasters.

And the damage isn't even that impressive. 15d6 presuming you were insane enough to go pure rogue (DEX at that, not touching a pure 30 STR rogue with a 10ft pole), and generously assuming you'll hit with 2 attacks per round it's 30d6, averaging out to 105 damage. Let's add in a d6 from the base weapon as well for 113 average damage on two hits.

This is just straight up worse than a hasted (or quickened spell) warlock who is sitting on 15d6+15 per blast, averaging at 135 damage per round. And that's not to mention higher damage classes like the good ol' fashioned weaponmaster, who suffers the same weaknesses to constructs and undead as the rogue, but due to his STR based nature and access to Weapon Focus will still be outputting decent damage and not become a useless lump.

Then there's the matter of even getting sneak attacks in the first place, you mention a melee buddy but that's not always going to be available. We have effects like darkness and invisibility but they have built-in counters, so does knockdown or any other methods of forcing flat-footedness, which means that you might not even be able to start sneak attacking while other classes can happily keep nuking away without reservation.

And as the cincher, any tool the rogue might be able to use to secure an advantage, be it wand, scroll, potion or other UMD device, a class with just a nominal 3 or 4 dip into rogue can also use to nullify that advantage or gain their own advantage. So that's why I'm not quite getting where this supposed rogue supremacy of yours is coming from. Because if it's just access to a greater number of skill points I just don't see how that evens out the other deficiencies of the class.

[Cortex]

rogue ab sucks Snuggybear

[susitsu]

Wat

"As a melee character," rogues can output impressive ranged damage. My bad?

Edit while I'm driving around and doing stuff:
I also definitely referred to rogues as characters who require prep, never "top dog" as a certain individual said nor anything about absolute "rogue supremacy."

I definitely said rogues can beat anyone. Because they can.

Their problems with things like Palemasters is...funnily enough...the same as every other melee characters problem with pale masters, isn't it? Definitely excluding battle-cleric. Deal with pale master the same way you deal with any hard problem. Traps. Anyone can dip for traps? Cool. Did you know they made the only trap npc require a lot more rogue levels?

The argument that people can just dip for "a few things" from the rogues kit beats out the fact they get a base 8 class skill points+int is legitimately ridiculous. If you want to try to say someone else can do that, then you tell me people should be playing wizard rogues.

[Nitro]

Sure, 8 skill points per level is neat, but that doesn't make a rogue good at anything, just makes them mediocre at a lot of things. If you want to make the:

best dungeoneering class.

Then all you need is Search, Disable trap and Open Lock. Three skills which anyone with 12+ INT can do a rogue dump to get up to the same standard as a pure classed rogue, while also being a lot better at their own field of combat. In fact, just dumping rogue will likely make them even better at combat since it also nets them tumble/UMD.

In fact, I'd go so far as to claim that if you absolutely want to make an ultimate skillmonkey, you'd be better off going deeper in Bard or Ranger for their slightly smaller pool of skill points, but broader avenues to be better elsewhere.

As it stands right now, most classes has some area that they excel in, and the only thing rogues excels at is being an excellent skill dump, that's why people want some sort of buff to them, to give them some area to shine where someone who just splashed some levels in for a specific cookie can't outshine them without effort.

[Cerk Evermoore]

Bring back pick pocketing house keys with 20 rogue levels.

[Hunter548]

Bring back pick pocketing house keys with 20 rogue levels.

Why don't we just give rogues free access to all quarters and remove the 24h stealing rule?

[Beneidalus]

Sarcastic comments aside, the quarter keys wouldn't matter too much anyways, now that one can set their quarter to faction ownership, and not have to mess with keys at all. Granted, maybe the key comment was sarcasm to begin with.

[Cerk Evermoore]

Well I mean, when you pick pocket someone it does a random roll on what comes out of their inventory and the majority of the time it picks something that you can't even pick pocket or something useless. It just rewards people for actually bothering to try pick pocketing folks considering the risk is being flattened to the ground in a PK incident.

[Cortex]

Pick pocket is a garbage skill that shouldn't be in a PW.

[RedGiant]

I think because rogues take a bit more skill, and for the impatient, this leads to the assumption they are "garbage". Not that they couldn't use a little love, but pure rogues and rogue-heavy builds can be quite terrifying.

I recall from ancient arelith antiquity the kobold Ssej Sventar: an almost full rogue, with a tiny monk dip, dual kama-wielding, living-Cuisinart. I think all his epic feats were to improved sneak attack. He had crippling strike, etc. etc.

I saw him take down one of the most feared PvPers of the day in a round.

One round.

There have been many rogue heavy nightmares stalk the server since, they just tend not to be favored because there are far easier choices to play. These builds tend to be late-bloomers, that many don't have the patience for.

In short, I still maintain rogues, even as they are now, are far from 'garbage',

[Beneidalus]

Regularly play rogues, and I feel like PP is in a good place. Takes some investment, but assuming you have, you might get the occasional goodie. It's usually a poor gamble, but what's a rogue, if not a risk taker?

I think i'm on like my fifth drow rogue, and the problem I regularly run into is that the AB/DMG ratio is shoddy. Decent damage, but shitty chance to hit. I don't imagine Dev's are going to start reducing sneak attack, so the straight forward approach strikes me as giving them an AB boost of some variety.

Of course if the gambling vein is strong, then I suppose even more damage, to offset the shoddy chance to hit.

They're skill monkeys sure, but that's nothing to boast about. The best items are crafted, with maybe the exception of the obscure rune system, but familiars and rogue dips can handle that. Meaning rogues don't shine at doing anything. And that's what many people have pointed out as being the issue.

The one good thing rogues have going for them, is retrieving epic traps, but those are incredibly hit or miss. Imagine PvP starting, but the rogue (or anyone who dipped into Set Trap) says, "Hold guys, gimme a minute. I gotta place my traps." That shit just don't fly. So much like sneak attacks, traps are too situational. Plus you don't necessarily need a rogue with Disable Trap, to get the traps, since they can be found in chests, which again, can be accessed by familiars, if they are even locked in the first place (since many chests tend not to be).

Once more leaving the Rogue in a very sub-optimal place, among the power/utility scale of other classes.

If I'm not mistaken, the example RedGiant has given, involved said kobold knocking on the door of the abyssal citadel, and getting a surprise flurry round on an un-warded battlecleric gnoll. Such examples can't be considered the norm. Sure, catching a spell-caster unprepared will be advantageous, but that goes for any class. Additionally, the rules of engagement make it that surprise salvo'ing people is nigh impossible. You have to basically tell them that you're gunnin' for them, making any attempts at catching them unaware, very unlikely.

Don't gimme wrong, I'm not saying the Rules of Engagement need editing, just that the given example doesn't work.

[RedGiant]

If I'm not mistaken, the example RedGiant has given, involved said kobold knocking on the door of the abyssal citadel, and getting a surprise flurry round on an un-warded battlecleric gnoll.

Not the example I was thinking of, which actually makes the point. Ssej was a little murder-bold with a string of high-profile kills. (Not that I advocate being trigger happy or rule breaking.)

I am redacting my original long response to say: I am always amazed at how easily people sneeze at things like +18d6 sneak attack x 7-8 attacks a round + crippling strike.

Moreoever, there are more speical weapons, essences, and damage stacking potential in the game now for the few things rogues might have trouble with than ever before.

But, again, this takes work. We like the easy button. Heck I like the easy button. (I even confess to have making a characters mechanically themed on pushing the least amount of buttons. )

[TimeAdept]

I think because rogues take a bit more skill, and for the impatient, this leads to the assumption they are "garbage". Not that they couldn't use a little love, but pure rogues and rogue-heavy builds can be quite terrifying.

I recall from ancient arelith antiquity the kobold Ssej Sventar: an almost full rogue, with a tiny monk dip, dual kama-wielding, living-Cuisinart. I think all his epic feats were to improved sneak attack. He had crippling strike, etc. etc.

I saw him take down one of the most feared PvPers of the day in a round.

One round.

There have been many rogue heavy nightmares stalk the server since, they just tend not to be favored because there are far easier choices to play. These builds tend to be late-bloomers, that many don't have the patience for.

In short, I still maintain rogues, even as they are now, are far from 'garbage',

One anecdote about a monk/rogue purposebuilt for flatfoot burst damage killing someone with flatfoot burst damage in a best case scenario doesn't change the fact that the class is just not very good. Pierce could do the same thing, but that doesn't make him good compared to 95% of the rest of the server - it just means that a class purposefully made to take really good advantage of its best case scenario will, in fact, be really good when placed in its best case scenario.

I am redacting my original long response to say: I am always amazed at how easily people sneeze at things like +18d6 sneak attack x 7-8 attacks a round + crippling strike.

Because when it comes paired with 40 Ab and negated by looking in your direction, it's a joke.

[RedGiant]

...flatfoot burst damage... best case scenario... doesn't change the fact that the class is just not very good.

...Because when it comes paired with 40 Ab and negated by looking in your direction, it's a joke.

I should stop responding to the bait here, but there are probably like 53 ways rogues/rogues heavy builds can make the sneak flurry work in today's Arelith. Not availing yourself of any of these boils down to my consistent main point.

To rerail this thread: as with all base classes, I wouldn't mind seeing them all get some sort of lvl 28 pure class perk. Maybe something to throw into the mix here as well?

[TimeAdept]

It's not bait. I play a 24 rogue 6 fighter. I know exactly how the burst works, when it's good, when it's not, and why and why it doesn't work. I play the class, and it is in dire need of some form of help.

The AB is subpar, the damage is only on par with STR when doing sneak attacks, and as someone once told me in another topic, "basing your character's usefulness around -guard is disingenuous and useless'. Lower magic equipment magic items means your skills can't be pressed high, negating the skillmonkey advantage.

The sneak flurry doesn't work in a situation where you need to alert your target of your incoming sneak flurry - unless they're unskilled enough to allow you to boast, invis, haste, and then kill them all with them just standing there watching the entire time flatfooted. That's not indicative of a good class, that's indicative of poor skill players.

[One Two Three Five]

TimeAdept covered it but like, try that best-case-scenario-flatfoot-flurry stuff on a 20/7/3 played well some time. You'll hit'm to injured and then get blown apart when they get their scimitar out.

Also, RedGiant, you might want to stop with the 'oh it's because rogues aren't easy mode' when you're referencing someone using one of the easiest, most well known generic rogue power builds in 15 years of NWN. (It's in Cortex's build thread, even!) And if rogues have 'all these tools,' idk, name them instead of vaguely implying you know the secrets of the universe

All that said, successful derail on the parts of susitsu and redgiant. trolled and tilted etc

SO. My actual suggestion here: I keep harping on skill unlocks so I made a couple.
Requirements: 2/3rds of your levels in Rogue-like classes. (Rogue, assassin, possibly SD?)
Unlocked via Skill Focus Feat, maybe, or just automatic on acquiring enough of a skill, base ranks only.

Couple examples:

Spot: A rogue with X Spot makes some sort of opposed check on an examined hostile (HD for monsters, something something PCs), and gains a +1 attack bonus versus that foe, for every 6 rogue-like levels they possess, for one turn. Two turn cooldown?

Assassin augments this by increasing your death attack and poison DC by the same amount.

Bluff: A rogue with X Bluff gains access to one of a selection of 'disguise skins' (think the original disguise function) and gain another selection every x rogue levels.

An assassin with an epic amount of bluff can, I don't know, do that thing from Prototype/TF2 where you drop someone and steal their appearance.

Craft Trap: A rogue with X Craft Trap can augment their traps for extra effects. Think inferno traps, double traps, etc.

Assassin augments this by letting you add some cool poisons to your traps? Special assassin-only traps?

etc etc you get the idea

[MissEvelyn]

I'd just like to see player quarters being accessible again to lock picks who are not trickery based clerics. Spent all this time making a character specialized in open lock and comes out that isn't even a viable class path anymore given the fact you can't even open a top DC player house.

I agree with this. The system should get completely overhauled imho. When you break into a home and open a chest that is currently owned, instead of opening, a dialogue should pop up and the Rogue would get to pick an item (either that or make it random based on Search / Open Lock / etc) and then that same Rogue wouldn't be able to steal from the same chest for X amount of hours or days.

[RedGiant]

TimeAdept covered it but like, try that best-case-scenario-flatfoot-flurry stuff on a 20/7/3 played well some time. You'll hit'm to injured and then get blown apart when they get their scimitar out.

Also, RedGiant, you might want to stop with the 'oh it's because rogues aren't easy mode' when you're referencing someone using one of the easiest, most well known generic rogue power builds in 15 years of NWN. (It's in Cortex's build thread, even!) And if rogues have 'all these tools,' idk, name them instead of vaguely implying you know the secrets of the universe

All that said, successful derail on the parts of susitsu and redgiant. trolled and tilted etc

Edit: Not a mature reply on my part. I'll pm you Time Adept or hit you up in tells IG.

[TimeAdept]

That's not a good faith reply. If you have actual reply to make to his words, please let me know, because both the PCs who -guarded my rogue rolled and I would like to be able to exist in PVE content again, and I'm being completely serious. I'm not even touching PvP. I've accepted my L there and hold it close.

[Sockss]

>High skill player.
>Rogues are good.

Pick one.

[MrKrang]

As a mechanical novice I cant comment on build balance etc etc.

My thoughts are that rogues could do with something to make them a little more unique as they are lost in the blur of multi classing and subclassing. The rogue like gear added requires subclasses or will help other classes do better at being a rogue.

Something aimed at rewarding high levels in rogue would be nice and cookies that fit the theme of the rogue. I would like to see something that would make a rogue character stand out from all of those who have dipped into a skill/umd dump and assassins/SD's who have their own specialisms. It doesnt need to be something that would make the class more powerful than others, simply something to make people realise that the char is a skilled rogue not just a weaponmaster who knows how to use wands.

[Dr_Hazard89]

What if we just gave level 28 rogues +10/20 to all the roguey skills like Hide/MS, open lock, pick pocket, traps, appraise, bluff, tumble, and a big snuggybear sized bonus to sneak attack to make up for the fact they're so terrible at fighting. Maybe since we don't have the scout class in game we could treat 28+ rogues as scouts and give them HiPS?

Someone explain to me why my idea sucks, please.

[TimeAdept]

TRUE SIGHT CHANGE

BLESS

[susitsu]

I needed a while to absolutely reel from some of the things I read here before I could formulate a response. I mean, I'm not sure if this is meant to be trolling me or not--

Sure, 8 skill points per level is neat, but that doesn't make a rogue good at anything, just makes them mediocre at a lot of things.

I really couldn't handle this. In an only nineteen rogue level build, with a 3 int mod, you receive 300 skill points. Now Amra's build varies a chunk from this, but with 300 skill points, you can do something like this with rogue at 29 and fighter at 30:
Total: 300
32 Bluff
33 Discipline
20 Disable Trap
33 Heal
30 Tumble
26 UMD
32 Hide / Move Silent
16 Spellcraft (Cross-class, you spend 32)
32 Search
15 Set Trap
7 Open Lock
8 Lore

I don't even think this is enough.

But this is everything the rogue could possibly need skill-wise. If someone else springs for traps who isn't rogue heavy, it is going to hurt them in another area still whereas it really is just an intrinsic part of a rogue's kit that they can easily afford. Regarding damage output? The problem is the AB, sure. There are things that both rogue heavy or monk heavy builds cannot hit. And then you do nearly no damage to them if you didn't roll good in that first flurry.

So you re-engage. And you do it until you have set-up your ideal win scenario, and this can be done while taking minimal damage. Which brings me to the other quote that broke me when I tried to respond to this finally.

One anecdote about a monk/rogue purposebuilt for flatfoot burst damage killing someone with flatfoot burst damage in a best case scenario doesn't change the fact that the class is just not very good.

that's just exactly how rogues work

Though that amount of burst is the kama rogue specialty, but funnily enough, that doesn't seem to be something a weapon master can even do to a rogue with a proper amount of AC and con in my experience no matter how much RNGesus wants to crit confirm. Even with a large level difference, and this isn't dumb luck. Rogues just aren't that weak.

You disengage and remake your fight conditions when something does not immediately work as any kind of rogue.

All of this aside, I do have some suggestions and points to concede upon.

The good ol' gonne has never failed me in a dex build. But "use a gonne and traps" is a bit too often the default solution. Rogue heavy builds could use a lot more ways to create opportunities, from the expansion and buffing of traps, more items with rogue heavy restrictions, and as mentioned when regarding things like dirty fighting, ways to daze opponents. After-all, anyone can get a See Invis or UV wand, though neither stops a rogue from using Darkness or Imp Invis first and abusing it on the target, especially if they stop to buff against your tactics.

Still not a great thing for them. They do need more toys. Rogue heavy restricted ones like the Harpers get.

As well, rogues should really have some built in mechanics that are exclusive to builds at like 17+ rogue to put in the extra effort to bar out dex WMs (15 felt too close to 13) that cause them to gain AB on sneak attacks, including against sneak and crit immune targets.

Something like literally every time a rogue would sneak attack, they gain AB for that flurry in addition to a few other methods a rogue can use to create an opening, such as no save one-round blinds in melee range just for that flatfooting (probably via new toys.)

[Cortex]

Hooking scripts to attack is really weird and bad to do, otherwise I think that would have been a solution added long ago.