Rogues: The Class Left Behind

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susitsu
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Re: Rogues: The Class Left Behind

Post by susitsu » Sun Mar 04, 2018 12:40 am

Rough. I was on-board with the concept of bypassing sneak immunities in the past, but that has already been stated to be very difficult to code every time it's brought up. Something more creative than that to gain temporary AB boosts.

What about something similar to an 'adrenaline rush' which would let a rogue gain an AB boost as long as they re-start imitative. An example would be every time they start combat or run initiative, they get bonus AB for two rounds that scales up to 28 rogue levels, with very notable numbers boost there. No stacking.

I'm not code savvy at all, so that something that sounds more plausible?

Beneidalus
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Re: Rogues: The Class Left Behind

Post by Beneidalus » Sun Mar 04, 2018 12:58 am

Whatever the bonus, it definitely ought to start before 28.

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Ebonstar
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Re: Rogues: The Class Left Behind

Post by Ebonstar » Sun Mar 04, 2018 2:58 am

Nitro wrote:
susitsu wrote:Being a skillmonkey is literally everything.

Quick answer while I'm at work? Put out massive amounts of ranged dps within 30 ft of your target as a melee character using weapons that do 1d3 damage with no focus or specs in them and crippling strike them while you're at it.
Putting skillmonkey aside, because other classes can still dip into Rogue to get access to any skills they might want to be an excellent dungeoneer, that leaves us with this 'massive' DPS under theoretically ideal conditions. Which is to say low AC targets that you can reliably hit with your 3/4 BAB, a maximum of 3 times per round instead of the dippers four, and which completely loses all potency against undead, constructs and Palemasters.

And the damage isn't even that impressive. 15d6 presuming you were insane enough to go pure rogue (DEX at that, not touching a pure 30 STR rogue with a 10ft pole), and generously assuming you'll hit with 2 attacks per round it's 30d6, averaging out to 105 damage. Let's add in a d6 from the base weapon as well for 113 average damage on two hits.

This is just straight up worse than a hasted (or quickened spell) warlock who is sitting on 15d6+15 per blast, averaging at 135 damage per round. And that's not to mention higher damage classes like the good ol' fashioned weaponmaster, who suffers the same weaknesses to constructs and undead as the rogue, but due to his STR based nature and access to Weapon Focus will still be outputting decent damage and not become a useless lump.

Then there's the matter of even getting sneak attacks in the first place, you mention a melee buddy but that's not always going to be available. We have effects like darkness and invisibility but they have built-in counters, so does knockdown or any other methods of forcing flat-footedness, which means that you might not even be able to start sneak attacking while other classes can happily keep nuking away without reservation.

And as the cincher, any tool the rogue might be able to use to secure an advantage, be it wand, scroll, potion or other UMD device, a class with just a nominal 3 or 4 dip into rogue can also use to nullify that advantage or gain their own advantage. So that's why I'm not quite getting where this supposed rogue supremacy of yours is coming from. Because if it's just access to a greater number of skill points I just don't see how that evens out the other deficiencies of the class.
so end the skillpoint dumps and that alone will end the 3 level dips

when HoTU first came out there was a server that had one simple rule when it came to character creation. What you do has to make sense. Mages would be insulted to sully their hands learning menial skills such as tumbling. Falling over objects yes but not tumbling to avoid things.
Monks and Druids are opposite ends of the spectrum.
When would your weaponmaster or Paladin sit down and take the time to learn how to pick a lock when they have a nice big sword to bash it with?

we seem to have gotten so mechanically focused on what can be done, instead of seeing the rp side of should it be done.

Now im sure im going to get the same remarks from the same peanut gallery that i do from all my posts, but before you remark all snarky, maybe actually think about where we are headed and where we wish we could be.
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Cortex
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Re: Rogues: The Class Left Behind

Post by Cortex » Sun Mar 04, 2018 3:22 am

Ebonstar wrote:Now im sure im going to get the same remarks from the same peanut gallery that i do from all my posts


Picking locks or tumbling over things is far more mundane than what those same characters are doing otherwise. End of the day, they're still adventurers.
:)

Tourmaline
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Re: Rogues: The Class Left Behind

Post by Tourmaline » Sun Mar 04, 2018 6:36 am

You can't just drop a contentious point and then say anyone who disagrees with you is a peanut gallery of hecklers..

And I don't even totally disagree. Some servers put limits on this: paladins and monks have to belong to establish orders and have limits on multiclassing, for example. Druid/monk combos are forbidden. Etc., etc. Both of those are common and I don't think out of line. There could be more limits on class combos that strain credulity especially when deities are involved.

But to say a mage wouldn't learn to tumble (which is a weirdly named skill, but it's basically just training your reflexes to react quickly, which is something even I could do if I took karate classes at the mall) or a weaponmaster wouldn't learn to pick a lock.. If you're allowed to multiclass, this is what multiclassing means. And a fighter/magic use/thief is a D&D staple going back to the first edition so don't tell me it's not appropriate!

3-level rogue skilldumping isn't going away, not without a radical shift, so I think the focus on improving rogues should be elsewhere.

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susitsu
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Re: Rogues: The Class Left Behind

Post by susitsu » Mon Mar 05, 2018 2:25 am

I think the general stance that's been expressed when that point was brought up before is that we're already here, it's too late for that.

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Tathkar Eisgrim
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Re: Rogues: The Class Left Behind

Post by Tathkar Eisgrim » Mon Mar 05, 2018 12:38 pm

The quintessential thief to my mind would require three criteria to be met:-

* Acceptance of the class fantasy that they become 'Master Thieves/Rogues' in their epic levels.
* Empowering those epic levels with a craftable category of rogue only class gear.
* Building the module and shaping the enemies that those tools become a solution to any opportunity or threat.

e.g. Craftable grappling hooks that allow entry into a side-entrance of a dungeon.
e.g. Golem Pitons - driven into the forehead locus of a golem to debuff it (sneak attack).

I think it would be fun to have a 'Rogue economy' of tools and devices that have high DCs to make, that only Rogues can make, that would be considered illegal in civilised lands -- that master thieves/rogues distribute to their underlings/guilds.

With NWN:EE in production -- perhaps someone could approach Beamdog to expand 'traps and devices' so they can be fully and openly scripted to a desired standard.

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Baron Saturday
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Re: Rogues: The Class Left Behind

Post by Baron Saturday » Mon Mar 05, 2018 6:49 pm

Throwing some ideas at the wall.

- High-level rogues get monk attack progression with certain simple weapons. Maybe dagger, handaxe, and mace? Helps out with their low AB by letting them get a bit spammy.
- Rogues with the Opportunist feat add their sneak attack damage to ripostes. Make a rogue in parry mode something to seriously avoid.
- Using Dirty Fighting as a rogue disables your sneak attack for 1 turn, but adds 1-2 damage/sneak die to your basic attacks.
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Lorkas
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Re: Rogues: The Class Left Behind

Post by Lorkas » Mon Mar 05, 2018 7:36 pm

Kuma made a suggestion a good while ago that focuses on rogue feats:
viewtopic.php?f=15&t=9496&p=77622

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