Do Quests Give Too Much XP?

[Seven Sons of Sin]

I've been waffling on whether this is a good discussion to have.

I'll disclaim by saying I absolutely love the design and principle of the Quest system. It's rewarding, and fun. It offers incentive, and creates space for lowbies, and all adventurers, to band together.

However, I'm not sure if its rewards are appropriate. It offers considerable rewards in XP and AdventureXP. You can collect 3 quests a day, and many of them can be completed solo, or in a party of two.

Do quests really award a new style of play? Or are there simply a new system to "grind in"? Perhaps you are lifting up players with not as much time, or offering new incentives to people who don't adventure, but you're also greatly accelerating the rate of progression for the section of the playerbase who is more knowledgeable about spawns, dungeons, mechanics, etc.

Should quests only give AXP award? Should quests only give an XP award? Should overall rewards for XP and AXP be toned down? Should quests refresh every 48 hrs, not every 24 hrs?

Should you only be allowed to have only one active quest a time, but receive benefit of quests undertaken by your party members? I.e. you have contract to kill goblins, party member has contract to kill orcs. you receive % of their quest XP everytime they fulfill one of their quest objectives.

I don't know how I feel about the new ease of progression. It's certainly a big shift to how things used to be.

(And perhaps a little disingenuous... but do quests just add another unsatisfactory layer to the 'grind for the 5%' discussion?)

Again, love the intent, principle, and design. Question the outcomes. Wonder if they should be toned down or altered.

[DarkDreamer]

Honestly, I think the quests are working fine, for a casual player, this rewards them rather then just those that can sit online for 8-12 hours a day. (looking at myself here for that one).

[Baron Saturday]

I could see the AXP rewards being toned down. The AXP bank I got from questing got me into the low epics without much additional effort from me.

[One Two Three Five]

There is basically nothing to do about the fact that NWN is a video game. An increasingly old video game, in a world where timesinks are way the heck more prevalent than 15 years ago. Anything that makes leveling a little less ragnarok online and a little more enjoyable is a good thing. Else, people will get a more rewarding hobby.

Quests these past few months are all that's keeping me playing, really, because the prospect of that 3-15 climb while working full time with other real, more-important-than-a-game responsibilities, with Arelith's non-quest grind? That's a no go, full stop.

For High Schoolers and NEETS that can play this game as a full-time job? Sure, maybe it's a bit much, but those people would be blasting ahead regardless.

[Septire]

Grinders are gonna grind.

Whether the system is good really depends on the design intent of the game and your expectations of how the game should ideally be played. Should players who spend more time playing the game, more time learning game mechanics and more time risking their neck adventuring be commensurate with their XP and gold gains? If the answer is yes, then they'll benefit from a system like this for sure.

If the design intent is to plateau the character progression between those that do the above and those who don't have as much time or knowledge, then no, the system doesn't do that in its current form. The XP and gold gains from this system are easily picked up by a grinder and are very good for the time and effort necessary to do it (it's low-hanging fruit).

If you want to plateau progression irrespective of time, effort, or knowledge, that comes with its own set or problems, like how do you distinguish between players (time spent playing? Time spent online? Build efficiency? Roleplaying 'quality')? What is the 'ideal' playstyle, what is 'quality' roleplay and should you distinguish between it (RPR/Grind Stigma v Favoritism)? What would the rewards of adventuring be in such a system? Would the current players agree with such a system? Players are playing here now because they like what is (or are waiting for better), so changing the server principles risks alienating current players, with a low inflow of new players. What are the sources of 'abuse' where players can circumvent the purposes of the system? Players could parallelize character progressions as opposed to powergrinding one character at a time, spending 1 hour on 8 characters instead of 8 hours on 1 character.

I believe that all mechanical systems will eventually be solved by players through experimentation, and someone will gauge that system's usefulness in their optimized timetable. If people are discerning and miserly with their time, they'll avoid inefficient systems and maximize the use of efficient ones. For some players, having high level characters or 5% rolls are their goals. I don't believe people want to feel like they are wasting their time, even in a video game. I'm not saying those who aren't grinding are wasting their time either; if the time spent playing is fun, then it is time well spent. For some players, that fun comes from having access to all the server has to offer, typically at level 30. That's also a problem point: the server should be fun at all levels, so new systems should be designed around achieving fun at all stages of the game.

I am getting a sense that 5% grinding is a key issue here. Instead of targeting XP systems, the better solution (so I believe) would be to identify what goals players have and create systems to facilitate their attainment where possible. Maybe players want something unique. Maybe 5% is too gated and powerful and lesser alternatives should exist that would satisfy them (Greater Awards). Maybe players just want to own stuff and feel important. Maybe DM questing and inserting their actions into the game-world is a solution. Maybe we need more things to own or control that doesn't space players apart by creating 'island' RP. How do we do that? There's lots of things to address. The real key is in giving players value for their time without turning the server into a mess. If we were to give everyone 5% rolls today, would the server fall apart? Would things get too crazy, and would players go overboard? Now consider that with the way 5% is implemented now, we're technically doing that already: anybody can grind, anybody can roll. The only thing that is gating them right now is pure luck and time, and a few systems involving gold modifying the roll. RPR doesn't really factor into the acquisition of major awards, unless you count AXP and ECL for grinding rates, which lessens in impact the harder and longer you grind. People who have more time and are willing to spend that time grinding are more likely to end up with 5% rolls, by its current design. Should 5% be based on time and chance alone, or capacity and creativity in demonstrated RP and leave time and chance out of it? That's its own discussion.

More to the point, I think that this system tries to alleviate things for players who don't have as much time to play or want to have some structure and purpose to adventuring, as shallow as it is in its current form (it is still very good for a v1). It tries to make the game fun for low levels and lets players feel like their time was well-spent. Value for one's time and receiving a tangible reward feels fun. So if I look at the system in terms of adding value to lower level players and alleviating the game for newer players, it's a success. It gives grinders an easier time as well, but even grinders are putting up with the process: nobody wants to hit up the slime temples for the 30th time. What they really want is to just be higher level to have more clout in server-wide interactions or a chance to feel powerful, or for PvP, or for 5%. They don't go to the slime temple for the slime temple's sake: after the 30th time it's boring. So this system can also help with that a bit as well by lowering dungeon repetition.

I think it's fine. I think the rewards feel pretty fair. It uses AXP and XP. It helps less knowledgeable players, it makes grinding slightly less tedious. If the concern is that grinders are going to skyrocket towards their goals and get those goals sooner, then the issue could be in the process: The system does not care how someone reaches 26 or higher. Not even players really distinguish how someone reached 30 when they RP or consider PvP, they too want their time to be spent efficiently and make the most of having such a character around. So if there are no constraints in RP or in the system... why not grind? The social and mechanical systems support it.

The system itself is fine I think, but it sounds like it could have an impact with other systems, like the 5% roll, which is its own topic really.

[Cybernet21]

I think the system is fine,grinders will always exist as stated above,lowering the XP/Gold rewards would only punish casual players instead of grinders (if grinding was something to be punished about wich for me i dont think it is)

Arelith is not a MMORPG where 75% of the game is grinding so you can experience end-game content wich means leveling shouldnt be as slow (like it was before,) for me i think this is just fine,not too fast nor too slow (for casual players that is,wich probably is most of Arelith's player base)

[ReverentBlade]

There is basically nothing to do about the fact that NWN is a video game. An increasingly old video game, in a world where timesinks are way the heck more prevalent than 15 years ago. Anything that makes leveling a little less ragnarok online and a little more enjoyable is a good thing. Else, people will get a more rewarding hobby.

Quests these past few months are all that's keeping me playing, really, because the prospect of that 3-15 climb while working full time with other real, more-important-than-a-game responsibilities, with Arelith's non-quest grind? That's a no go, full stop.

For High Schoolers and NEETS that can play this game as a full-time job? Sure, maybe it's a bit much, but those people would be blasting ahead regardless.

I agree with these points. In fact, a large reason I haven't touched Arelith before now is because it has a reputation around the internet as being slow to level. Between writing for one job, running a 5th edition P&P game for my buddies, driving out to the countryside for my -other- job, while still keeping caught up on WoW, Overwatch, Elite: Dangerous, and other games, I just didn't figure I had time to really invest in a slower server.

I was -very- pleasantly surprised to find that the questing system makes the grind not quite as bad as the word of mouth was hinting at. Hope it doesn't get nerfed.

[Baron Saturday]

Heh, it's not the leveling that eats all your time, really. It's keeping up with the stories.

[Cortex]

If you try hard to level of course you'll level fast, faster than anyone else who doesn't. This system doesn't increase the leveling rate of 'grinders' proportionally to the rate of more chill people.

[Septire]

This system doesn't increase the leveling rate of 'grinders' proportionally to the rate of more chill people.

And I think this point here is really key to why I think it's fine. If the game is more forgiving for non-grinders, even having a side-effect of allowing grinders to level faster, that's something I can live with, because the threshold quality of everyone's time improves.

[WinkinBlinkin]

Rough figure alert. I used to gain about 2000 xp per real life day. I now get about 4000 average. This is a lovely boost. For a grinder, their change is maybe 15000 up to 20000 now. This is a 100 percent increase for me against a 25 percent increase for grinders. If this is the purpose, is been very effective. The grinders still level five times faster than the casuals, so I think it's a win win.

[magistrasa]

Rare is the occasion that I'm driven to comment, but since I started playing as this was implemented as a feature to make grinding easier for new people, I figure my experience with the system might be worth something as one of those new people.

I've been playing on Arelith for... I dunno, 3 or 4 months? My first character is my only character, still only on the cusp of epics, and I'd never played NWN before I joined Arelith. As one of those people who didn't always have the time to sit down and grind, the quest system started as a relief - especially since I didn't exactly know where I should go to grind in the first place. Solo exploration felt very quickly discouraged as I'd wander as a level 5 into areas meant for level 10's - and having a direction to go to, even if I didn't know where it was, inspired roleplay because, hey, maybe this random stranger knows where I should go, and maybe they even want to join me, or maybe someone overhears the conversation and is heading to the same place! It was more steady footing to base roleplay off of than, "Hey, let's go adventure!" "Okay, where?" "...I... I don't know..."

But the major thing that stood out to me is the fact that I was leveling too fast to understand how to play the game. Maybe that's an issue that's exclusive to me, but I reached level 16 in a couple weeks and after all the quests were done I felt like I didn't have the knowledge of the mechanics or the setting that the game seemed to expect of me. It's obviously never too late to learn, but I feel like a good amount of that learning should happen in lower levels, gaining real experience just as you earn game experience. The past few levels, without quests to guide me, have felt like some of my most rewarding because the more "traditional" grind feels like it gives me enough time to really explore my capabilities and figure out how my class really works. When I hit 17 and 18, I felt like I really earned it.

I know this probably sounds like I'm saying the traditional grind is "better" than writs, but lol no. This game needed writs. A lot of those lessons I learned after writs were off the table was the fact that this game is _unforgiving_ and the level that I've been working on for the last month has long since entered the realm of tedium. So I feel like writs add some desperately needed accessibility for sure. But all this is basically a long-winded way of saying, yes, I do think writs give too much XP. To me, the reward felt like I was stealing levels from the game that I didn't rightly earn.

(Then again, maybe some of this feeling stems from the fact that I'm a class with a spellbook, so taking time to learn how to use my spells is a little more crucial. But I've literally never played a melee class so I dunno.)

[BegoneThoth]

I love the writ system as is.

I also like how it gives a ton of adventure XP, so for my entire leveling experience I was constantly drip-fed XP.

A far cry from the days of yore where I ran laps with lasso'd prisoners just to try and keep my adventure XP up.

[Marsi]

I think a quicker levelling experience is great for everyone, and I love how the admin team has cracked onto that. Quests, along with adventure XP, ironically bring the focus away from mechanics and optimal grinding and back to roleplay. I don't think there is anything to gain by being made to repeat the same dungeons over and over. It allows for more explosive character arcs and eases the timesink that is the dread of anyone who is gainfully employed or lives somewhere other than the US.

However, I'd much prefer to see an element of (controlled) randomness in the quest system. Perhaps a dynamic tied to a (far more fleshed out) population script. The XP rate needn't be toned down, because the "easiness" lies in the predictability of the static nature of the quests.

Grinding for 5% rolls is a strange beast and I don't think mechanics should be wrangled with to try and curb it. The players who partake in such behaviour would do so however long it took them.

[Shadowy Reality]

On my latest character I never turned on -adventure. I managed to reach level 28 before the Adventuring Exp from Quests ran out.

While in this particular instance I may not be the norm, quest AXP can probably be toned down just a bit.

[Ork]

I love the opportunity to gain AXP from quests, but I think I echo a lot of posters when I say that it has significantly reduced the need for other means of AXP gain: lassoing, exploring, and -adventure.

I'm not complaining. It just makes these other three modes obsolete. I believe true XP needs to remain high to actually motivate players to continue using quests. Nerfing quest XP into oblivion would be a somber day.

[flower]

I think the ADX should be removed from the quest entirely. I got so many of them i will not need to turn on adventure state in next month.

With quests i and my friend managed it to 21ths in like 3-4 weeks of playing (and i took 5 days break to finish KC:D). We still rped a lot outside of combat. But few trips for tasks usually meant a level.

But i was on sick holiday so i did not work and had to be locked at home

Edit: the gold from the tasks are not bad, especially for low levels! and would be worth taking for, even without xps.

[If Valor Were Inches]

I am for the system remaining as is.

I am much happier playing the game casually than sinking so much time into it like I did in college. The daily quests, as they are, really help promote casual growth and make it feel rewarding due to its pace. I can do three quests, and then focus on my character's other goals. Being an "Adventurer" actually feels supported. I stopped playing Arelith for quite some time because it had become such a time sink, and I wanted to better balance my life. Now I've a career I love, one I wouldn't had Arelith still been a time sink.

Leveling up, in RPG games, is one of the more rewarding facets. Arelith also has story too, and following it is fun, but now it's much easier to keep up with your time-sinking counterparts.

[Xerah]

I am for the system remaining as is.

I am much happier playing the game casually than sinking so much time into it like I did in college. The daily quests, as they are, really help promote casual growth and make it feel rewarding due to its pace. I can do three quests, and then focus on my character's other goals. Being an "Adventurer" actually feels supported. I stopped playing Arelith for quite some time because it had become such a time sink, and I wanted to better balance my life. Now I've a career I love, one I wouldn't had Arelith still been a time sink.

Leveling up, in RPG games, is one of the more rewarding facets. Arelith also has story too, and following it is fun, but now it's much easier to keep up with your time-sinking counterparts.

My feelings exactly.

Adventure XP and quests really helps us part time players out a lot, regardless if it is too much.

[Tourmaline]

Yes.. Please don't reduce the XP. It's been very liberating to actually be able to make progress on a character or two when I can only play about 10-15 hours a week. Before, I always felt like I was just treading water. Now I can keep my main going while exploring other alt concepts I would never have bothered with before when it would take months just to get to 20. It's great.

In a general sense I think if you want players who have a certain maturity you're going to have to take into account the fact that most adults can't reasonably spend 40 hours a week in an online game. Those who can will always have a huge advantage, but this lessens the gap considerably.

If I have one observation.. Is ECL taken into account on quest XP? If not, that may be one consideration. There seems to be less reason not to max out gifts (or take gifts or play races with less ECL) if everyone gets the same amount from quests and that's where over half of your XP is coming from.

[I_Am_King_Midas]

I definitely don't want to see this XP reduced. This has made the game soooo much more enjoyable. I know it allows me and others a better opportunity to play the game. Honestly, I would like to see quests all the way through the game.

[Dovesong]

I love it so so sooooo much. Please do not reduce!

[WanderingPoet]

As another very slow leveler, I am quite fond of the -adventure mode and quests, it certainly makes it a lot easier to go out and get a bit of xp for an hour or two and then enjoy RPing. I find leveling significantly easier than it was before, perhaps a bit fast - but that is easy to offset, just stop doing quests to slow down!

On my main, before -adventure/quests, I was able to get one level/week or one level/two weeks meaning it took me about 12 months to get to level 30. Nothing wrong with this speed, I had no issues being relatively weak and slowly getting there (and adjusting my build as I did!). There isn't really a need, personally, to rush to get to 30. Now with -adventure/quests I've been able to get an alt to level 10 in less than a week (compared to about 3 months on Yeto). Significantly faster, although part of that attributed to the alt being more of an adventurer, less of a talker.

Overall the quest xp is in a good place. Don't want to level so fast? Don't do them. Want to get a couple levels so you can pick up a new ability? Do a few quests. Know you're in for some long meetings and want some adventure xp? Do a few quests and you're set!

[Seekeepeek]

The adventure xp is to much.
i have over 130k of it at lvl 20 (could only take quests to lvl 16). Without going out adventuring, it can get me to lvl 28 with a RPR of 20

[Beard Master Flex]

Ive been playing Arelith for years - I now have a wife, a child and a job that sees me in the field more often then not. Adventure XP and the questing has allowed me to start a new character and enjoy myself more then I think I would have been able to if things were left as they were.

To me the game gets fun levels 15+ when you’ve got your build taking shape and can reliably navigate the overworld to follow RP instead of having to choose between turning it down or dying to wyvryns and the like.

The new systems get you into the action more readily and reward you with character profession and fun. I’ve met way more characters on these quests then I used to trouncing the sewers.

I think it’s great!