Examine: Race/sub

[Feral One]

Because the setting demands some races get treated specific ways, creativity be damned.

I'll believe this when I see sun elves actually look down on half-elves.

[One Two Three Five]

The setting is garbage and 'behaving' and 'knowing' are different. Hell, I'll believe it when people stop playing non-evil sun elves as Eldreth Veluuthra, who are evil aligned and maligned near to extinction but heyyyyy gotta be a mean elf GOTTA get into Myon- You can treat a tiefling however you like but no one has magic tiefling vision because that's out and out idiotic, was removed from this server years ago, and, this is the weirdest one for me:

I think is a really crucial point. Word spreads (unfortunately also on OOC channels) and I don't really see a situation, whatever the check value, that anyone would be able to keep this kind of information a secret in the long term. It also makes a poor story resolution when the 'big reveal' comes not as the culmination of a larger narrative, but because someone happened to pass a roll at a specific time.
...

For plenty of people this is an advantage, as stated above, but for others it effectively entirely shuts down one avenue of RP. This really is one of those situations where some people are happy, and others are not, while yet others are just putting their faith in the team and trusting the judgement of those involved in the decision.

Aside from what I said above I will remain as impartial as I can be, but will definitely be giving this situation some further thought.

It doesn't even seem to be something the server owner even likes OR it's something that somehow got pushed through without even a five-minute glance over by a player-level of discussion without real approval. Why put something like this (BACK) in the game then? Especially without attached systems to make it less of a pain in the Snuggybear from the perspective of everyone but the 'rp as a competition and if I can't see race/class/outcast status I'm losing' people?

What's the QA like for this sort of stuff?

(Seriously, 3E FR compared to even 3E Eberron or like, Ravenloft, Dragonlance, or better non-dnd games is such a mess. It's a bunch of Wacky Spots for Elminster to Be Cool in)

[BegoneThoth]

Because the setting demands some races get treated specific ways, creativity be damned.

I'll believe this when I see sun elves actually look down on half-elves.

Well....

I don't think this is something to be celebrated. This is a real problem.

They should be doing it.

[One Two Three Five]

Mechanics are rarely if ever a solution to people's behavior, this specific mechanic wasn't before, and it wont be now, no matter how suddenly and painfully attached to it you are.

Oh, and last time it was in, having bluff auto-scrambled your info, which it no longer does, so, we're arguing over half-a-feature that was implemented incomplete compared to the old implementation- which, why?

[Irongron]

Its not that I don't like, exactly. I think the mechanism in itself is extremely useful in overcoming the visual limitations of the game (as others have said). There are plenty on examples on this thread of people for whom this is a big quality of life update; characters who rather than being disadvantaged by it, view it as the opposite.

I particularly like it that characters of a particular race can easily the subrace of their fellows, but other races cannot. And of course there is how helps with NPCs. Its also certainly preferable to this being done by killing a PC and examining the corpse.

The issue comes with those characters who wish to conceal their identity, and have it reduced to a simple mechanical function rather than via RP. Frustration with those that do not do this in favour of just never mentioning, RPing it, and really just being such for mechanical value is an old frustration, and why once upon a time planetouched was gated via RPB. It is a thorny issue as clearly neither of these approaches are ideal.

So yes, as my view is being discussed here I'll be as clear as I can. I like the update, and the function, but as many players have pointed out there is an unpleasant gap in the vision I didn't really take account of, or even consider (if I'm honest).

I'd only say this is something I believe we can keep in perspective. The discussion is more than warranted but it is one on which both sides make a good point. Neither is it entirely gamebreaking, and something where I think we can arrive at some happy medium.

[One Two Three Five]

Yeah, also the gap, I assume, doesn't really take into account Johnny Level Four, who starts in Cordor, a town full of epics that'll see through their disguise instantly regardless?

Any discussion being put on expanded mimic/higher planetouched DCs/class-based bio mentions, too? I think the first two would solve some problems, since, no lie, getting to 15 lore is laughably easy in Cordor, especially with lore rings being so simple to get- I'm currently looking at a shop selling several +5 lore rings for sub-1000, in Cordor. So. One of those and a lore potion and you're spotting tieflings easy.

While the third, really, I just feel like if we're going to do this, we might as well lean all the way into the automated feel.

[Durvayas]

Just get bluff. It's not too hard.

At this point, I'm beginning to believe that you are physically incapable of formenting an arguement that isn't in bad faith or willfull, painful, ignorance of how skill checks work. I'm inclined to believe its the former.

[Irongron]

This is under discussion right now, and an update announcement to this function will likely follow a little later today.

[Orian_666]

Everyone here claiming it should be hard to tell if someone is a Tiefling, or an Orog, or anything of the sort.
Have you guys actually seen official images of these races?
The difference between an Orog and a Half-Orc is /supposed/ to be a massive difference, Orogs are closer in appearance, size, everything, to full blooded Orcs than they are to Half-Orcs. That's pretty easy to tell.
Tieflings? Seriously? They're extremely easily distinguishable. The only reason we're all so used to not being able to tell straight away is because of the limitations of NWN and the models we have.
Aasimar I would concede wouldn't be as easy as the two mentioned above, but still a lot of obvious traits and details that would give it away.

I'm all in favor of increasing the DC of the Lore check vs sub races, monster races, and planars, but simply because of the fact that these things are actually pretty easily distinguishable without the character wearing extremely baggy robes and a full faced mask/helm I wouldn't want to see that DC go beyond, say, 20 for the current lowest and then 30~ for planars.

As it stands the only reason we can't tell right away from what we see on screen is because of the NWN limitations, if there were official models for these races then you'd notice it right away. Simple as.

[One Two Three Five]

4th and 5th tieflings are easy to distinguish because they're a distinct, relatively common race with consistent features, that breed true. They have Asmodean features, always. (Although, spoiler for an FR novel, 'normal' tieflings still exist and are difficult for non-tieflings to distinguish for whatever reason.)

3rd editions tieflings and aasimars, yes, could have weird feet or claws or horns or whatever, but could also just, like Cortex mentioned, provided by the setting of the game, have two different colored eyes and a third nipple or something. Stuff you could hide.

In fact, when people were getting too buck wild with how demony/angely/whatevery their planetouched were, they got heavily restricted then removed, then re-added as an auto-reward. Pick your poison, I guess.

[Irongron]

Everyone here claiming it should be hard to tell if someone is a Tiefling, or an Orog, or anything of the sort.
Have you guys actually seen official images of these races?

Another great point, and I just raised in a development chat in regard to Deep Gnomes. That they look the same in Arelith is because models for these do not exist, if they did it would be startlingly obvious.

This is less true for some races however.

[Durvayas]

4th and 5th tieflings are easy to distinguish because they're a distinct, relatively common race with consistent features, that breed true. They have Asmodean features, always. (Although, spoiler for an FR novel, 'normal' tieflings still exist and are difficult for non-tieflings to distinguish for whatever reason.)

3rd editions tieflings and aasimars, yes, could have weird feet or claws or horns or whatever, but could also just, like Cortex mentioned, provided by the setting of the game, have two different colored eyes and a third nipple or something. Stuff you could hide.

In fact, when people were getting too buck wild with how demony/angely/whatevery their planetouched were, they got heavily restricted then removed, then re-added as an auto-reward. Pick your poison, I guess.

As it stands the only reason we can't tell right away from what we see on screen is because of the NWN limitations, if there were official models for these races then you'd notice it right away. Simple as.

The DMs and Devs of this server have, for ages, stood by the WYSIWYG principle. Why would we stray from that now because of 4th and 5th edition?

[Orian_666]

4th and 5th tieflings are easy to distinguish because they're a distinct, relatively common race with consistent features, that breed true. They have Asmodean features, always. (Although, spoiler for an FR novel, 'normal' tieflings still exist and are difficult for non-tieflings to distinguish for whatever reason.)

3rd editions tieflings and aasimars, yes, could have weird feet or claws or horns or whatever, but could also just, like Cortex mentioned, provided by the setting of the game, have two different colored eyes and a third nipple or something. Stuff you could hide.

In fact, when people were getting too buck wild with how demony/angely/whatevery their planetouched were, they got heavily restricted then removed, then re-added as an auto-reward. Pick your poison, I guess.

As it stands the only reason we can't tell right away from what we see on screen is because of the NWN limitations, if there were official models for these races then you'd notice it right away. Simple as.

The DMs and Devs of this server have, for ages, stood by the WYSIWYG principle. Why would we stray from that now because of 4th and 5th edition?

Because unless an exception is stated otherwise the WYSIWYG stands, an exception has been stated quite clearly with this update.
Not to mention with this update (pending maybe higher DCs and a few mimic changes) it's now more immersive. We /should/ be able to tell the difference for the most part, that's how it should be.

[DirtyDeity]

In regard to Tieflings...

"Tieflings tended to have an unsettling air about them, and most people were uncomfortable around them, whether they were aware of the tiefling's unsavory ancestry or not. While some looked like normal humans, most retained physical characteristics derived from their ancestor, with the most common such features being horns, prehensile tails, and pointed teeth."

A completely human looking tiefling is an entirely feasible and reasonable thing in FR. It is even further stated that... "Tieflings who had strikingly inhuman features were often killed at birth by their horrified parents or others. Only those tieflings with subtle features or born to someone indifferent to their appearance, either out of acceptance or cruel purpose, were likely to reach adulthood."

Telling someone their tiefling has to be a monstrous demon thing with red skin and talons and horns is just inconsistant with the setting.

[One Two Three Five]

Races of Faerun, 2003.
Some things to note.
"Tieflings look human except one or two distinguishing features."
Several of those are hideable, easily? Wear gauntlets, wear a mask/helmet, don't walk near mirrors or pools of reflective water, don't- let people touch on you, I guess?

In fact, MOST of the example-traits listed are pretty hideable, easily- And, again, I cannot stress enough, back in the day even tieflings with these traits got, uh, talked to? Mine with extra fingers and small horns definitely did. I definitely remember someone getting turned from red to like, tan, too, because it was too much. So, is this coming with some easing of that stuff?

Don't ref official (read: mostly 4th and further, really-) art without mentioning anything else about it, my dude

Edit: yea, didn't quote the 'only with subtle features' bit but it's there.
Also the 3rd edition non-planescape art for tieflings is Edgelord Supreme but still rather hideable with some gloves and such.

To further explain some history: I think what's maybe happened is due to some... let's call it well-intentioned over-policing of planetouched based on one dude who claimed to be a half-angel and one stigmata-tiefling, let's be real, we now have a lot of people who roll planetouched and are afraid of leaning into it for risk of going too far. Thus a lot of like, subtle or hidden tieflings. A word from on high that planetouched can go back to being less subtle and more 'obviously monstery' in ways that, say, Grumpycat mentioned earlier, might be a good step towards getting them more open and less hidden.

[Irongron]

I really like the diverse nature of tiefling traits, and that it can be specific to their particular blood. I don't think any mechanic can beat the RP fun to be had with them.

There's also the broader question of deformities. It is particularly fitting to pseudo historical setting that those born with extra toes, birthmarks etc, could be rounded on by those claiming them to be demonic in nature, and the uncertainty is something that really generate RP in the right hands.

Revealing them with flat out mechanical certainty is a lot less fun than the alternative, and as someone else here pointed out will have the unintended consequence of making tieflings socially acceptable - not something I am at all keen on.

[One Two Three Five]

Revealing them with flat out mechanical certainty is a lot less fun than the alternative, and as someone else here pointed out will have the unintended consequence of making tieflings socially acceptable - not something I am at all keen on.

This is, yes, basically where I'm at. It wasn't fun back in the day to have, just hypothetically, an epic mage with four first names obsessively *looks*ing every character that crossed their path and shouting out what their race was because they thought it was funny to do so. I cannot imagine it's going to be fun again.

I think maybe the system was put in with good intentions, but is one of those situations were no plan survives first contact with the enemy? The potential for abuse or at least rampant fun-ruining is, in my opinion, a bit too high.

Examine update:

1) Planetouched removed.

2) Spells/items no longer work on the lore check

2) Lore increased to 20 for racial subraces.

3) Ranger level added to lore check if they have favored enemy instead of it being automatic.

4) Only proper favored enemy rangers/elves with enough lore can ID Gray Dwarves and Drow. Drow and duergar can ID members of their own subrace.

heart emoji

[Durvayas]

With the new update, I'm bowing out of this discussion. My concerns have been more or less entirely allayed with the new changes, and I have no further issue with the system.

[Feral One]

Soooo much better, and not even just because of the planetouched being removed. Love it a lot, and I really do wanna see this turn into something where the planetouched are there somehow.

[Aftond]

Thanks for staying on topic thus not causing the thread to derail like so many others. The power of staying on point, people.

[BegoneThoth]

Good update, but I do hope something changes with planetouched in the future.

[Seven Sons of Sin]

In principle, I don't disagree with BegoneThoth. Because I have not been party to any circumstance wherein playing a planerouched has been detrimental, where perhaps it should be. I also don't believe there's any real stigma or repercussion for playing a planerouched, which makes the original update seem, practically, inconsequential. I do agree, in principle, that skipping subtleties and nuances in storytelling to one-click-identify a character seems forever in bad taste.

However, I'll beat this drum forever, and the dead horse too, but I think it is extremely unwise to tie any special races behind any sort of mechanical rewards system. Unless you are comfortable with having these discussions every 6 months. Gifts do not reward good roleplay, good stories, or good players, yet you are allowing opportunities for some of the most "finnicky" and "culturally impactful" races to be rolled up.


That's probably tangential. I just bet you this topic isnt solved yet.

[The Salt Elemental]

As someone currently playing a tiefling, I'd like to weigh in on this topic of tieflings being 'socially accepted'.

As of right now, tieflings are not, and likely will not ever be, fully accepted into society. Playing a tiefling who does live in Cordor, my own character still suffers the animosity and hatred of humans that often tieflings live through. I did not start out in Andunor, because I wanted this experience. Racism (Or biggotry as we will call it) is a very prominent thing/topic in forgotten realms. Elves sneer at lessers, dwarves hate everyone but their own, etc etc.

In Andunor, tieflings are not actively hated. They are not actively spit at. They are ignored. And as a player, playing a tiefling for the first time, I wanted the full experience.

I think it's important here to note that tieflings in populated area's are not 'accepted'. They are tolerated. A tiefling who attempts to be accepted will only ever go as far as a few friends. On average? That hatred and animosity towards tiefling characters still exist. And it's fun! It adds conflict and depth to a character.
Even in a leadership position other players do a good job of making a tiefling feel unwelcome. And it's brilliant. In my personal experience, playing as a tiefling who tries to be more human than she is, the race itself is only tolerated. My own character still gets people screaming at the sight of her. She still gets spit at. She still gets threatened and treated like less than dirt, despite everything she's ever done. My point here is that there seems to be this thought process that 'teiflings are socially accepted because they have a few ic friends'. No, not at all. Even outcasts have friends. You don't have to be chased out of a city to not be socially accepted.

[Stath]

[quote="One Two

Examine update:

1) Planetouched removed.

Noice.

[BegoneThoth]

As of right now, tieflings are not, and likely will not ever be, fully accepted into society. Playing a tiefling who does live in Cordor, my own character still suffers the animosity and hatred of humans that often tieflings live through. I did not start out in Andunor, because I wanted this experience. Racism (Or biggotry as we will call it) is a very prominent thing/topic in forgotten realms. Elves sneer at lessers, dwarves hate everyone but their own, etc etc.

Arn't you the cordor guard commander? I know you were for a while.

Hard to argue that tieflings are not accepted when one has such a position.

Other cities as well have a lot of tieflings in government.

The negative social aspects of the race are simply not present in the world, and the few that are have been supremely diminished by the sheer number of tieflings, and the inability to know you're in a room with some.

I think it's honestly detrimental to the setting to have so many, and that they are treated almost the same as every non-human, if anyone even knows.

Edit; This post is not in anyway a negative post nor am I implying anyone is doing anything wrong or incorrect.