Examine: Race/sub

An area to facilitate free-form feedback on systems (in-game or out) related to Arelith.

Moderators: Forum Moderators, Active DMs, Contributors

Post Reply
Stath
Posts: 693
Joined: Tue Sep 16, 2014 11:28 am
Location: Arelith.

Examine: Race/sub

Post by Stath » Sat Feb 24, 2018 6:26 am

In most people's experience when information is handed to players on an OOC plate it's usually violently abused and promptly metagamed. Lately there seems to be a trend with IC information being displayed on a character's examine sheet- radiant heart seals, freed slave rings, etc. This makes sense when it's something obvious- a slave collar, for example. I don't necessarily think it makes sense to display subraces.

It seems stifling, limiting and really just like information that should be ascertained in character through actual interaction. It doesn't necessarily seem conductive to fun story telling that a tiefling player could spend many hours in a long arc carefully concealing his distinguishing features and then get obliterated by someone with 10 spot who right clicks them.

I guess my question is why do the devs think this is something positive and how do they see it actually working in game.
Ork wrote: *who filters sexy elven fun times, really?

User avatar
BegoneThoth
Posts: 1589
Joined: Fri Oct 06, 2017 5:20 am

Re: Examine: Race/sub

Post by BegoneThoth » Sat Feb 24, 2018 6:51 am

If you have disguise you can hide your race. Naturally if you're bad at disguises you can't conceal your drowvish roots.
\

Griefmaker
Posts: 883
Joined: Mon Sep 08, 2014 8:33 pm
Location: California

Re: Examine: Race/sub

Post by Griefmaker » Sat Feb 24, 2018 7:02 am

I just like this from the simple fact that it is hard, if not impossible, to determine sub-races often of a character. Especially since far too many believe it is difficult to type out a simple description with basic information (not life story, hopes, and dreams or a 15 page bio, just incredibly basic physical description which one can RP off of if they desire it and include race and subrace if need be or if they are not actively trying to hide it).

I have had characters in the past who were very keen on such simple information on whether or not the elf before him was a wood elf, sun elf, moon elf, gold dwarf, shield dwarf, half elf....etc. Yes, one can ask in a quick tell, but that can be jarring and should not be necessary since the character obviously would know the difference.

Races/subraces in examine is good.

DarkDreamer
Arelith Gold Supporter
Arelith Gold Supporter
Posts: 1037
Joined: Wed Aug 17, 2016 11:53 am

Re: Examine: Race/sub

Post by DarkDreamer » Sat Feb 24, 2018 7:02 am

planars are 15+ and Disguise does work to hide it

User avatar
One Two Three Five
Posts: 1139
Joined: Sat Mar 18, 2017 7:09 am

Re: Examine: Race/sub

Post by One Two Three Five » Sat Feb 24, 2018 7:25 am

Personally not a fan but if everyone else and the devs want bios cluttered with OOC at a glance info instead of having to rp for it (since rp is hard) then whatever I guess.
The devil does not need any more advocates
Clerics are just socially acceptable warlocks.

DarkDreamer
Arelith Gold Supporter
Arelith Gold Supporter
Posts: 1037
Joined: Wed Aug 17, 2016 11:53 am

Re: Examine: Race/sub

Post by DarkDreamer » Sat Feb 24, 2018 7:27 am

I more like it that you can finally tell a gnome and a hin apart...because Mechanics sure as heck isnt letting you otherwise.

User avatar
One Two Three Five
Posts: 1139
Joined: Sat Mar 18, 2017 7:09 am

Re: Examine: Race/sub

Post by One Two Three Five » Sat Feb 24, 2018 7:40 am

Maybe we're running on vastly different resolutions but they look nothing alike on my screen. Also gnomes self identify with fun names like Ferdinand Dankworth and Fritsy Throatgargle

(ferdinand dankworth copyright 1235 2018 all rights reserved)
The devil does not need any more advocates
Clerics are just socially acceptable warlocks.

DarkDreamer
Arelith Gold Supporter
Arelith Gold Supporter
Posts: 1037
Joined: Wed Aug 17, 2016 11:53 am

Re: Examine: Race/sub

Post by DarkDreamer » Sat Feb 24, 2018 7:44 am

lol, they do look the same to me unfortunately.

User avatar
Red Ropes
Posts: 1008
Joined: Sun Feb 28, 2016 11:42 pm

Re: Examine: Race/sub

Post by Red Ropes » Sat Feb 24, 2018 7:47 am

I think we need to be able to disguise individual qualities about ourselves and not have to actually foment an entire disguise.

See this in the case of these OOC markings and race.
🤡

User avatar
One Two Three Five
Posts: 1139
Joined: Sat Mar 18, 2017 7:09 am

Re: Examine: Race/sub

Post by One Two Three Five » Sat Feb 24, 2018 7:48 am

An expanded mimic function would be a good place for this (and should've been slotted in with this update, really)
The devil does not need any more advocates
Clerics are just socially acceptable warlocks.

User avatar
Aftond
Posts: 228
Joined: Thu Jul 23, 2015 10:40 pm
Location: Sweden

Re: Examine: Race/sub

Post by Aftond » Sat Feb 24, 2018 11:00 am

Let's say a tiefling or aasimar hides their noticable physical features behind a helmet and clothes. How does it make sense that with 15 lore, you can x-ray through the layers and determine that someone is part of said ancestries?

User avatar
The GrumpyCat
Dungeon Master
Dungeon Master
Posts: 6565
Joined: Sun Jan 18, 2015 5:47 pm

Re: Examine: Race/sub

Post by The GrumpyCat » Sat Feb 24, 2018 11:09 am

Well a tiefling or aasimar may have a certain 'scent' to them (The smell of sulpher, the hint of roses) They may have a unusual voice, (His voice is rasping, like bones over dried blood... her voice is ringing, like church bells...) They may have a faint 'aura' about them (When he is near, you feel your blood crawl. When she is about, a feeling of comfort wafts around you.)
They may have a certain way of moving (his tail leaves grooves on the ground as he steps, her footfalls are too light - not even indenting snow.) they WILL have certain ways of acting, (He cannot understand mercy, he kills without a secopnd thought. She cannot understand cruelty, even the death of a villian makes her weep)
Further more, the pixels on the screen don't always account for what your character can see. (When he speaks, you catch the faint flash of sharpend teeth through his visor. When she reaches out, you note the gap in her robe, the skin of her shapely wrist is pure white, like ivory).
There are lots of ways. I personally like this.
This too shall pass.

(I now have a DM Discord (I hope) It's DM GrumpyCat#7185 but please keep in mind I'm very busy IRL so I can't promise how quick I'll get back to you.)

User avatar
Lorkas
Posts: 3903
Joined: Mon Sep 08, 2014 3:14 pm

Re: Examine: Race/sub

Post by Lorkas » Sat Feb 24, 2018 11:23 am

Here's the basic summary: if you are a member of a particular race, there are signs that you belong to that race. The signs might be hidden if you have good enough bluff or perform, but not just by throwing on a helmet and gloves, which used to be a zero-investment impenetrable race-disguise.

Now it's up to you to RP around that, but it's a step in the right direction for the server for there to be a system in place that doesn't let people disguise these features for free, but requires them to actually invest in bluff or perform if they want to hide these things.

User avatar
flower
Posts: 1287
Joined: Sun Apr 23, 2017 12:16 am

Re: Examine: Race/sub

Post by flower » Sat Feb 24, 2018 11:33 am

Lorkas wrote:Here's the basic summary: if you are a member of a particular race, there are signs that you belong to that race. The signs might be hidden if you have good enough bluff or perform, but not just by throwing on a helmet and gloves, which used to be a zero-investment impenetrable race-disguise.

Now it's up to you to RP around that, but it's a step in the right direction for the server for there to be a system in place that doesn't let people disguise these features for free, but requires them to actually invest in bluff or perform if they want to hide these things.

You are wrong. It never was impenetrable disguise.

It is a polite thing to remove helmet when talking to other random travellers. It is a polite thing to do so when asked.

Failing to do anything of that clearly tells you are hiding something and are not the one you tell you are.


Edit: that noone ever bothers with any ethic code IC or is smart enough to do these things really is not my problem

User avatar
Lorkas
Posts: 3903
Joined: Mon Sep 08, 2014 3:14 pm

Re: Examine: Race/sub

Post by Lorkas » Sat Feb 24, 2018 12:00 pm

It was impenetrable unless the disguised character took it off willingly. There are a lot of times when it would be better for a particular character to be seen as rude than to be seen for their actual race. Ultimately, the choice to remove or keep the helmet on is still purely in the hands of the person trying to hide their race, with no way (short of killing them... that is, ending the interaction) to determine it if they don't want you to.

The entire point is that now it isn't left to people to choose whether or not to remove the helmet--if you don't invest in skills that represent your character being good at hiding their features, they'll be bad at hiding their features, period. It's as it should have always been.

User avatar
flower
Posts: 1287
Joined: Sun Apr 23, 2017 12:16 am

Re: Examine: Race/sub

Post by flower » Sat Feb 24, 2018 12:12 pm

But you could always choose to treat the suspious person as persona non grata or some kind of criminal.

User avatar
Aftond
Posts: 228
Joined: Thu Jul 23, 2015 10:40 pm
Location: Sweden

Re: Examine: Race/sub

Post by Aftond » Sat Feb 24, 2018 12:34 pm

I can understand features being noticable during interactions, but as it stands someone can rush past you and blitz-examine and have ultimate proof of what you are. I won't comment more on this, until it's been in effect for a while. See if it's abused or not.

User avatar
Durvayas
Arelith Supporter
Arelith Supporter
Posts: 2207
Joined: Sun May 31, 2015 6:20 am

Re: Examine: Race/sub

Post by Durvayas » Sat Feb 24, 2018 12:47 pm

Aftond wrote:I can understand features being noticable during interactions, but as it stands someone can rush past you and blitz-examine and have ultimate proof of what you are. I won't comment more on this, until it's been in effect for a while. See if it's abused or not.
Being able to see subraces was abused for a long time before the ability to tell on a spot check was removed. I have absolutely no confidence that this will not be violently abused and promptly metagamed. I'm in full agreement with Stath on this one.
Plays: Durvayas(deleted), Marco(deleted), Hounynrae(NPC), Sinithra Auvry'ndal(rolled), Rauvlin Barrith(Active), Madeline Clavelle(Shelved)

User avatar
Thanatosis
Posts: 101
Joined: Tue Jan 16, 2018 4:47 pm

Re: Examine: Race/sub

Post by Thanatosis » Sat Feb 24, 2018 12:52 pm

I can't say I'm fond of tieflings/aasimar being "spotted" by anyone with a modicum of lore. If someone wants to display the fact they're planetouched, they most certainly will. You know what I'm talking about.

I'm not disrespecting that brand of RP, mind -- I've seen it done well and not well, it's just like anything else -- but if someone has more subtle planetouched traits, maybe it's because they'd like to be, you know, subtle. Gating that subtlety beyond an arbitrary lore check kind of assassinates a little bit of the nuance.

The reasoning behind even those planetouched who don't have a bevy of physical aberrations isn't particularly sound to my mind, either: somebody who's really mean and kills people without thinking too hard is a tiefling? Being brutal and killing things at the drop of a hat isn't exclusive to tieflings; a lot of normal evil characters do that.

The rest of the update is pretty neat though. It's great to be able to tell the difference between, for example, an Orog and a half-orc at first glance, even if the character is description bereft, since there's an obvious difference between the two.
BegoneThoth wrote:Hardcore player here

User avatar
Cybernet21
Posts: 673
Joined: Mon Nov 07, 2016 6:18 pm

Re: Examine: Race/sub

Post by Cybernet21 » Sat Feb 24, 2018 1:56 pm

I like it since y'know...anyone who lives in FR should be able to know wich race they are looking at (aside from the really rare ones),like as in the example above knowing a half-orc and a Orog are different,and lore making you know about more rare races such as Aasamir makes sense since having lore means your character studied more than the simple commoner.

This is no OOC infromation,it's IC since as i stated above people who live in the FR (our characters) should be able to differentiate most races/subraces. And some people simply forget to put their subrace in their description,not on purpose but it happens.

EDIT:Also how is it gonna be metagamed if it's something your character knows,and i really dont see how this feature can be abused
Last edited by Cybernet21 on Sat Feb 24, 2018 2:00 pm, edited 1 time in total.
My family were all knights,but none protected those who cannot fight for themselves.They all cared about their noble status more than anything else.I would be a true knight,i would train on the ways of the paladin -Arcavius Ryde

User avatar
Cortex
Posts: 3553
Joined: Tue Mar 24, 2015 10:12 pm

Re: Examine: Race/sub

Post by Cortex » Sat Feb 24, 2018 1:58 pm

I can't wait to see people trying to come up with random excuses about how they know my character is a tiefling.
:)

User avatar
flower
Posts: 1287
Joined: Sun Apr 23, 2017 12:16 am

Re: Examine: Race/sub

Post by flower » Sat Feb 24, 2018 2:05 pm

Cortex wrote:I can't wait to see people trying to come up with random excuses about how they know my character is a tiefling.

People often do not care, just point a finger and declare definitive verdict :D

User avatar
Cybernet21
Posts: 673
Joined: Mon Nov 07, 2016 6:18 pm

Re: Examine: Race/sub

Post by Cybernet21 » Sat Feb 24, 2018 2:09 pm

Cortex wrote:I can't wait to see people trying to come up with random excuses about how they know my character is a tiefling.
I mean...a tiefling is easy noticed by someone who studied a bit (wich is why it makes sense someone who isnt from that subrace needing 15 lore),their features are pretty unique,so if a character has 15 lore examines your character and notices he/she is a tiefling because of a specific trait i dont see this being abuse.
My family were all knights,but none protected those who cannot fight for themselves.They all cared about their noble status more than anything else.I would be a true knight,i would train on the ways of the paladin -Arcavius Ryde

User avatar
Thanatosis
Posts: 101
Joined: Tue Jan 16, 2018 4:47 pm

Re: Examine: Race/sub

Post by Thanatosis » Sat Feb 24, 2018 2:11 pm

Are they? You're acting like all tieflings just have big goat horns and smell like sulphur, which is straight up untrue.
BegoneThoth wrote:Hardcore player here

User avatar
Cybernet21
Posts: 673
Joined: Mon Nov 07, 2016 6:18 pm

Re: Examine: Race/sub

Post by Cybernet21 » Sat Feb 24, 2018 2:16 pm

Thanatosis wrote:Are they? You're acting like all tieflings just have big goat horns and smell like sulphur, which is straight up untrue.
Did i say that? I dont think i did,i know there are more subtle traits but someone who studied(lore) would know those traits as well
My family were all knights,but none protected those who cannot fight for themselves.They all cared about their noble status more than anything else.I would be a true knight,i would train on the ways of the paladin -Arcavius Ryde

Post Reply