YMA2's Outcast Suggestion

[Nitro]

Godwyn's law got off to a strong start in this topic real fast.

[Iceborn]

Why would people in Arelith know what my character has done if they did it on another continent? This totally railroads a person's RP.

This is for you to justify when you play an outcast.
Otherwise, you are not playing an outcast.

This seems to be the larger brick in the base of the issue.


You are an outcast BECAUSE you have a reputation that allows you to be "welcome" in the Underdark, and unwelcome in the surface. The background as it stands is not "underdark human" or some variant of the same. You don't get to choose to not be an outcast when it's inconvenient for you.


EDIT: Honestly, yes. It's silly one way or another.
We don't want a huge tag on people that is X, and it doesn't make any sense that all outcasts characters are widely known by all the NPC population, but not the PCs. That is MY issue. The discrepancy between what it seems to be generally known by the NPCs, and the absolute inability to know something in the glance for the PCs.

I don't want the brands. They may be cool to some character concepts, a cross to bear, a hardmode that may be interesting to play, but not all of them. I don't think that's the solution to the ill-defined reputation issue of the outcasts.

How do we solve that? I can't say.

[One Two Three Five]

Like how you can't do certain things on the surface whenever you want? Gotcha.
Honestly starting to think the whole *looks* and Radiant Heart tag thing might've been a mistake, if people are going to start clamoring for easy identification of everything that could be identified. This person is banned from Cordor! This person has a warlock pact! Just make it easier to not have to talk to people.

[Cybernet21]

Like how you can't do certain things on the surface whenever you want? Gotcha.
Honestly starting to think the whole *looks* and Radiant Heart tag thing might've been a mistake, if people are going to start clamoring for easy identification of everything that could be identified. This person is banned from Cordor! This person has a warlock pact! Just make it easier to not have to talk to people.

Well i certainly dont want that sort of thing,the Radiant Heart tag by using the pin makes sense(because it's the of the rules of the order) as well as a Outcast being branded an Outcast (or recognized as one) because they are supposed to be that kind of infamous,as for the other things you mentioned i am agasint it.

For me Outcasts tag should just be something showing they are an Outcast,and if showing why,it being a vague idea of why (like the mad experimenter on the suggestion being talked about,it seems vague enough,it doesnt specify wich kind of experiment they did)

EDIT:Or seeing as people totally forgot (counting me as well ) about another possibility is of NPC's like guards and merchnats droping hints someone is an outcast,or random bounty hunters spawing on the Surface if a outcast is walking in the area or the same warning monster PC's get when approaching a settlement (or all at once perhaps) instead of a tag

[Iceborn]

But why?
Why would the NPCs identify Outcasts so easily, and why couldn't PCs?

[Nitro]

But why?
Why would the NPCs identify Outcasts so easily, and why couldn't PCs?

How many NPC's are there even that does it right now? Laurick and whoever the invisible NPC handles housing documentation?

[Red Ropes]

Those are the only ones who do.

[Dr. B]

Why would the NPCs identify Outcasts so easily

They wouldn't. The mechanic is not based on what's realistic; it's totally unrealistic, as it makes no sense for Laurick to have perfect photographic information about every single Outcast imparted to him before he even sees them. It's silly, really, and I personally find it immersion-breaking, that there is this guy who can remember tons and tons of people in astonishing photographic detail simply from descriptions that apply even when they are wearing helmets.

If it plays some important role then keep it, but don't spread the nonsensical, immersion-breaking mechanic to the entire playerbase.

The purpose of any mechanic restricting Outcast travel on the surface is, or at least ought to be, (1) to keep Outcasts, for the most part, in the UD to maintain Andunor's thriving and (2) impose a disadvantage for the advantage of using the Hub portal. That's what the goal should be. This suggestion that everyone should be able to tell who my character is assumes, wrongly, that it makes sense for Laurick to know every Outcast by face and thus assumes (wrongly) that it makes sense for all PCs to know Outcasts by face. It's getting the point of these mechanics wrong.

"Just going to talk about role-play a bit here, as it was myself that introduced the concept of outcasts in Arelith.

The exact reasons for it are something for the individual players to decide upon, as part of their own character's backstory, but essentially this is what it means.

This individual has a degree of notoriety among the populace, whether through actions of their own, family connections, disfigurement, or being falsely accused, their identity is wildly known and rumours about them persists to this day.

These are people nobody would want as a neighbour, and would provoke an angry reaction from local citizens should they be welcomed in any civilsed settlement. Redemption is impossible, not because their crimes are so great, but because their notoreity is so widespread, and the rumours so unpleasant. Any individual player character may choose to disbelieve or forgive an outcast, but they simply lack the capacity to convince an entire nation to share their views."

"... it is up to the players themselves to RP outcasts appropriately. Remember, this doesn't mean you can't like and/or befriend them, but that in doing so you would be breaching the conventions of society in a serious fashion. Picture some of the worst people in human history, and imagine yourself walking down the street with them in your home town".

Weren't they created to help fix a dying Underdark? Surely that was the original reason. The whole "Outcast" thing just seems like a rationalization to explain why they are in the Underdark, but the primary purpose was always to have a population of evil humans and half-orcs in Andunor. Surely that was the original idea.

You are an outcast BECAUSE you have a reputation that allows you to be "welcome" in the Underdark, and unwelcome in the surface. The background as it stands is not "underdark human" or some variant of the same. You don't get to choose to not be an outcast when it's inconvenient for you.

People are looking way, way too literally into the name of the background and not the spirit in which it is created. I'm all for a tweak to encourage them to stay off the Underdark but the current means being suggested is, truly, the worst way to go about it.

Let's be honest: the real reason this thread exists is because players of non-Outcasts don't find it fair that Outcasts can leave via the Hub portal and basically access the rest of the isle more easily than they can. That's a better reason than "I feel your RP should be XYZ because the name of your background is X." I mean, come on. I'd sooner change the name of the background than implement this suggestion.

[caldura firebourne]

Don't outcasts and monsters already get the "you get suspicious looks" meta floaty text over their head when nearing settlements?

Honestly if that's not enough of an indicator, maybe the solution isn't more meta tags from the devs, but more roleplay from the players

[StandingOnTheShouldersOfGiants]

Let's be honest: the real reason this thread exists is because players of non-Outcasts don't find it fair that Outcasts can leave via the Hub portal and basically access the rest of the isle more easily than they can. That's a better reason than "I feel your RP should be XYZ because the name of your background is X." I mean, come on. I'd sooner change the name of the background than implement this suggestion.

Dr.B has hit the nail on the head. I'd even suggest not only changing the name but the description of the background as well. Another option is to remove the background altogether. It makes absolutely no sense for a new character to be so notorious we should all be aware of their past transgressions as soon as they step foot off the boat. No offense to anyone, but it really is a poorly thought out concept (unless it was designed to repopulate a dying underdark which is an entirely different discussion altogether).


Caldura, if as you suggest more rp is needed then that statement could be applied quite liberally across all classes and backgrounds. The drow priestess who demands instant respect at third level, people coming down to underdark and treating it like a Sunday stroll at the beach, etc. Just a couple of scenarios where your statment could be applied. If the Outcast is so notorious our characters know who they are instantly, then the drow priestess should automatically get instant respect from everyone. The surfacers coming down to the underdark should rp being cautious and absolutely afraid of being there due to the horror stories they have been told about the underdark since they were children.

[Seven Sons of Sin]

(why isn't this in the Feedback section?)

Also, we should've never allowed surface races to so easily integrate into the UD, unless the long-term goal is to wholly transform the Underdark into Skullport. Letting humans play in all the playgrounds undermines the principle that monster races/UD races get exclusive access/freedom/"safety" in the Underdark. Maybe we don't agree with that principle anymore.

[Nitro]

(why isn't this in the Feedback section?)

Because making discussion topics about other posters suggestion topics is the hip thing to do these days. Heaven forbid some suggestion goes undiscussed.

[Seven Sons of Sin]

(why isn't this in the Feedback section?)

Because making discussion topics about other posters suggestion topics is the hip thing to do these days. Heaven forbid some suggestion goes undiscussed.

Oh, I've no problem with discussion. I just thought game mechanics/systems weren't supposed to be discussed in the Slanty Shanty.

[BegoneThoth]

Could just remove the background and all benefits/penalties that go with it. Let outcasts buy property, let the boatswain move everyone, let anyone bind in nu-skullport.

If there's to be a solution it has to be made in such a way that "outcast" isn't just mechanically better then the default start, and should be more then "I just want to make this PC an UD human," which is what it has become despite the description on the wiki which is a bad reference anyway.

[Dr. B]

Removing the background will have adverse effects on the UD population. Again, I really, really think that limiting Outcast portal use on the surface is all we need to make this problem go away.

[Hunter548]

What problem? This (and the recent change) seem like solutions in search of a problem.

Lots of people go on about how the outcast background gets abused, and yet I've never heard a single example of someone who actually did that. The whole thing just seems like knee-jerky "I don't like X player, they must be exploiting the system in some way" preconceptions, combined with the usual low level UD playerbase tribalism.

[Dr. B]

Oh, I think there's no problem either. I'm only voicing this suggestion because if there is a title wave of dissatisfaction from enough players about Outcasts that change is inevitable, I want the change to not be awful.

[Cybernet21]

I mean...a level 2 PC of any calss can honestly be a serial killer of a bunch of level 1 NPC's.

Also i (cannot talk for everyone who has a similar view to mine)never said that the system was being abused but that it can be abused the ways i described,so isnt it good to have a wall put up to stop the abusing of the system before it is abused largely?

[BegoneThoth]

What problem? This (and the recent change) seem like solutions in search of a problem.

Lots of people go on about how the outcast background gets abused, and yet I've never heard a single example of someone who actually did that. The whole thing just seems like knee-jerky "I don't like X player, they must be exploiting the system in some way" preconceptions, combined with the usual low level UD playerbase tribalism.

I don't think its abuse or being abused, it's being used exactly how it should in the current implementation, "I want to make a character that can bind in the hub, and I'm not worried about owning homes in surface settlements. Therefore there is absolutely no reason to not pick outcast."

If I ever wanted to use the Hub I'd do it too.

But the way it's used seems to run contrary to whatever design goals it had when it was made, aka reserved for the worst of the worst. So perhaps the team should clarify what an outcast is or means, add in some element that allows for some RP aside from the before mentioned hub binding, or get rid of it all together.

[Dr. B]

But the way it's used seems to run contrary to whatever design goals it had when it was made, aka reserved for the worst of the worst.

The goal was always to rejuvenate Underdark RP by moving it to a trading Hub near the surface, where surfacer presence was more normal.

The thought "Hey, lets explain the presence of these humans in the Underdark by calling them 'Outcasts'" was an afterthought to that more basic goal.

I am personally in favor of allowing evil humans and horcs to pick a background that lets them use the UD, call it something other than "Outcast" and leave it up to the players to come up with their backstory, then impose limitations on their ability to use the surface that do not mysteriously empower everyone in Arelith with photographic memories and apparently a lifetime subscription to the entire archive of Torilian police mugshots, which isn't a thing. Such measures are not necessary.

[Cybernet21]

So..you guys want Outcast now totally removed because Outcast shouldnt feel like what an Outcast actually is.

The solution could be more simple than that,have a reward for any non-good human or half-orc to be able to have acess to the UD and have Outcasts at the same time (with the small tag/brand or NPC's dropping hints or even bounty hunter parties spawning on the surface after Outcasts that arent trying to hide themselves with either sneak or diguise),that way if you just want to RP someone who isnt an Outcast and wants to work as a safe liason/spy/etc.. with no possibilty of being easily found out as an Outcast not trying to hide himself would.

Or better yet,make Outcasts a Reward(and have a warning that it wont be a easy life before the person takes the reward) and UD Dweller (just came with a name to the suggestion on the paragraph above) a normal Background,that way Oucasts still remain what Outcasts are,and people who feel like Outcast Background isnt for them/their character but still want to experince UD as a non-good human or half orc,altough i think UD races would probably find hard to trust UD Dwellers, even more than Outcasts.Since Outcasts would be harder to RP it makes sense they would require a reward

Wich means both would have their pros and cons,Outcasts would have a easier time achieveng the "trust" between the UD races but harder time being a liason/spy/etc... And UD Dwellers would be the other way around.

[Ork]

Cybernet, again why? You're using the definition of a word to defend your position. If the Devs want to change Outcast to something else they will. There is literally no definition of what an Outcast means in Arelith and as always that meaning is left to the players - which is good!

Just because you can access the UD doesn't mean a character would be welcome. As always, roleplay decides.

[Cybernet21]

Cybernet, again why? You're using the definition of a word to defend your position. If the Devs want to change Outcast to something else they will. There is literally no definition of what an Outcast means in Arelith and as always that meaning is left to the players - which is good!

The definition has already been posted and reposted by many people,from the wiki itself,it says the RP is up to the players yes but sets a tone of how it should be(in a vague way so it doesnt completely dictate RP but still) or at least similar to.

And the why as i already mentioned before is so there is wall stopping the system being abused by people who just want easier acess to the UD and Surface at the same time but not RP what an Outcast is,i am not saying it is currently being abused but it is possible to be abused,why not have something to lower the chance of it being abused?

The other reason as i already said as well,is to give more immersion to people who already RP Outcasts like Outcasts,it gives more sense of danger while wandering the Surface and specially settlements and actual consequences should the Outcast make a mistake of entering civilized settlement without disguising himself or sneaking.My point of course is not that consequence being PvP and needless death,the consequence i'm thinking of would be being chased out of town or have jailing RP with the player guards of the setlement,as much as there might some people that might take it to PvP right away i belive most people around would try to make RP before going to PvP.

[Gods_Kill_People]

Here, let me help by giving you the ACTUAL definition of Outcast.

1. - a person who has been rejected by society or a social group.

As it was implemented, you are rejected by Society....

[BegoneThoth]

I'd want it removed and just let whoever use the Hub port.

If it isn't making people social outcasts, and NPC's have access to a list of names the players can never see, then you really don't have to act like an 'outcast' at all, just don't attempt to buy property and avoid the boats.

So I see it doing nothing positive at all, and think it should be removed.