YMA2's Outcast Suggestion

[JediMindTrix]

10/10

I really like the 'Fallout Reputation' feel the descriptions have to it.

[Cybernet21]

Yep,it's a really cool idea.You get the disadvantage that people know you are an Outcast but get a very small advantage in return and is really good for RP.(the brands showing what the character did or was at least accused of)

[Dr. B]

Why do people feel like the Outcast system needs to be revamped? What's the issue that needs to be solved? Aren't there more pressing things for the team to focus on?

[JediMindTrix]

How dismissive

Why do people feel like the Outcast system needs to be revamped?

viewtopic.php?f=13&t=16500

[Wordless Truth]

Why do people feel like the Outcast system needs to be revamped? What's the issue that needs to be solved? Aren't there more pressing things for the team to focus on?

Hey, relax, they're just discussing a cool idea. Not important to you? Just move on.

And what do you even mean, should people stop writing down and discussing their ideas completely because there are other 'important' matters?

Devs work on the things they feel are necessary, or fun for them anyway. I don't think verbalising your own agenda strongly helps your case in any sense. In this specific case, the matter is being looked at. There's not much to say or do now (except for giving neutral, technical input in the thread itself), especially not in a completely different thread.

[Xerah]

I can't speak for the balance team, but I have to think that an extra bonus stat isn't going to be looked at as fair. The only thing I could see if maybe a skill focus or one of those level 1 feats.


This is off of the original topic but I believe it needs to be said...

Aren't there more pressing things for the team to focus on?

This is a common complaint that I see in many games. On this server (and pretty much every game out there), there is a team of people who progress on various tasks at various rates. These tasks do not operate on first A then B style but instead each person does what they can when they can. The only time this is overridden is when there is an obvious game breaking bug where the whole team rallies around it to try to fix it.

For this specific example, the person who has implemented spellsword has said there are idea and changes in the works to deal with the imbalance of spellswords. Holding up all server development until that is done is rather absurd.

[JediMindTrix]

I can't speak for the balance team, but I have to think that an extra bonus stat isn't going to be looked at as fair. The only thing I could see if maybe a skill focus or one of those level 1 feats.

This is a fair point, straight bonus to your attribute score, even if it is just +1, is not minor -- and RP disadvantages do not balance out mechanical advantages. Adding -1 to x attribute just 'locks' people in to certain background archetypes paired with certain class/build archetypes. Every WM would be a murderer, etc

[Red Ropes]

I honestly don't think anything about outcasts need to change. Players need to just pay attention to other players for the contexts and clues why someone is an outcast. There needs to be more 'responsibility' encouraged for outcasts to be good mamas and papas and that is something for the DM team to enforce, not players.

ie, if you know someone hanging out in badman town

maybe like, you know...

say somethin?

and if you're thinking they're being a cheesey weesey weeny deeny?

report---> DM TEAM

garauntee it'll at least get read

[JediMindTrix]

I honestly don't think anything about outcasts need to change. Players need to just pay attention to other players for the contexts and clues why someone is an outcast. There needs to be more 'responsibility' encouraged for outcasts to be good mamas and papas and that is something for the DM team to enforce, not players.

This relies on players providing those clues/context, and they're not obligated too currently - and many don't at all.

[Blood on my Lips]

In my opinion, there's already several disadvantages to playing an Outcast. As it is, several NPCs refuse to interact with you. You are barred from owning property in settlements. There's also numerous players who yell "Hello underdarker!" at you in public places.

The only advantage to having the Outcast status is that you can utilize the portal in the Hub.

If you want to know who is an Outcast you should be more socially aware. This can be achieved through RP.

Adding a brand to Outcast characters creates another disadvantage for them and opens up another opportunity for meta-gaming and on sight pvp.

Having "I'm an Outcast" in the description seems like it would just become another tool for potential miss use while not providing anyone any information they couldn't glean for themselves by the players IC actions aleady.

[JediMindTrix]

There's also numerous players who yell "Hello underdarker!" at you in public places.

They're not meant to be welcome in these spaces, though.

[BegoneThoth]

Free stats for being in the UD? No way.

[Harasha]

The big advantages of taking outcast status at the start to my thinking are convenience (UD is quicker to level as it's more compact, has more convenient portals and has a lot of useful/profitable merchants) and the ability to "fit in" right away if you want to actually stick around and RP.

Undercommon from the start is also a huge advantage. Yes, you could learn it, but don't make that sound trivial, it could take months of real life RP unless you have a very patient trainer. It also doesn't eat a language slot if you are 14 int.

Some people don't think these are big advantages, but they are to me!

Brand aside (which is fine, as long as there's the option to be not branded!) I do wonder if the status should be a separate menu option like Earthkin get to start in a different location instead of being a character background perk.

I also think outcasts should get the silent warning monsters and even svirf get when approaching a surface settlement. If the player thinks their RP doesn't warrant heeding it, then they can ignore-- but it's a nice little reminder.

And.. I think outcasts should require evil alignment. It states such, but neutral is actually allowed. I think you should be committed to playing an evil human if starting below, though.

[Scurvy Cur]

There doesn't need to be a mechanical buff of any sort attached to outcast status. The notion is well-intentioned, but if there's a hand given to outcast characters, this isn't the way to do it.

[Baron Saturday]

If there was interest among the team in implementing something like this, I would tone down the bonuses towards those offered by other backgrounds. Along the lines of...

Mass Murderer: +2 intimidate, -2 persuade
Despoiler: +4 saves v. disease, -1 charisma
Grand Thief: +1 open lock/disable trap/search, -1 will
Mad Experimenter: +1 lore, +1 alchemy skill, -2 concentration
Heretic: +1 will, -2 persuade/bluff
Traitor: +1 discipline, -2 appraise

[BegoneThoth]

I like that a lot.

[Yma23]

A lot of really good points here - I love Baron's idea of different stats especialy. The stats I gave above were only rough ideas, to get the concept across.

I actually agree that there doesn't NEED to be a 'brand' showing up an outcast for being an outcast. It's not an urgent consideration and it's not a huge deal for things to continue as they are. It's nice that outcasts can work as a 'middle ground' between surface and underdark. Indeed, when the Kill Scripts were still in place, I'd be vehemently against any sort of Branding for outcasts, as it is/was important and useful to the underdarkers that they could act as middle men on the surface.

But now killscripts are no longer a thing, and I can very much see the argument that there should be some form of identification for surfacers. The entire term 'outcast', the concept of it, suggest that one is cast out of normal society. So it's a little wierd that it just doesn't show up. Because keep in mind, this isn't just about outcasts hiding the fact they're outcasts on the surface, it's also about outcasts showing that they're outcasts to gain acceptence in the underdark.

Is it a problem? No... hugely. But it is odd. Like having a Necromancer class who can't summon Undead. Or a Warlock who can't summon devils/demons/whatever. It's just... strange?

But I do feel that if a 'Brand' system is put in place (or an identification system at all) having something else there to balence that out (like the skill bonuses, or the ability bonuses, or something) would be nice. Otherwise when you play an outcast you really are getting a bit of a raw deal. And I do think such 'marks' or 'brands' should be subtle (only appearing when one looks at the person) and ideally easily disguisable, so outcasts can pass for hidden if they want.

[azrael_athing]

10/10

I really like the 'Fallout Reputation' feel the descriptions have to it.

It is my belif that with bonuses of this magnitude can only be justified if there is a serius drawback, e.g Shopkeepers in surface-settlements refusing to give service.

edit: Honest and law-abiding shopkeepers*

[Dr. B]

Why do people feel like the Outcast system needs to be revamped? What's the issue that needs to be solved? Aren't there more pressing things for the team to focus on?

Hey, relax, they're just discussing a cool idea. Not important to you? Just move on.

I play an outcast, so it is obviously of interest to me. As for my question, I'm not mad. I just want to get a sense of what people feel the problem with the outcast system is. For my part, I don't perceive a problem, and I'm against making any changes to the outcast system as it is. People should be despised for their deeds on the server, not things they presumably did before they arrived on Arelith, and making mechanical changes to the outcast system that involve "branding" them gets in the way of the player of an outcast having their character's own story about how they arrived in the UD. Case in point, what if whoever chased them out of their home intends to kill them? Doesn't make much sense for them to catch, brand, and release.

Don't forget that all outcasts, indeed all UD races, start off on a ship. Their being infamous where they came from doesn't equate to their being infamous to people on Arelith. That should be a consequence of their in-game conduct.

[Yma23]

Why do people feel like the Outcast system needs to be revamped? What's the issue that needs to be solved? Aren't there more pressing things for the team to focus on?

Hey, relax, they're just discussing a cool idea. Not important to you? Just move on.

I play an outcast, so it is obviously of interest to me. As for my question, I'm not mad. I just want to get a sense of what people feel the problem with the outcast system is. For my part, I don't perceive a problem, and I'm against making any changes to the outcast system as it is. People should be despised for their deeds on the server, not things they presumably did before they arrived on Arelith, and making mechanical changes to the outcast system that involve "branding" them gets in the way of the player of an outcast from having their character's own story about how they got there. They should become infamous by doing things in game.

The... Problem (and that is a misleading word, as I don't know if it is a huge problem, more of a 'wierd thing') is this -

You play an Outcast.

outcast
ˈaʊtkɑːst/
noun
noun: outcast; plural noun: outcasts

1.
a person who has been rejected or ostracized by their society or social group.
"she went from trusted pal to ostracized outcast overnight"
synonyms: pariah, persona non grata, reject, leper, untouchable; More
foundling, waif, stray;
exile, refugee, displaced person, DP, asylum seeker, evacuee, expatriate, outsider, outlaw, castaway;
rareIshmael
"a social outcast"
antonyms: insider

adjective
adjective: outcast

1.
(of a person) rejected or ostracized.
"they can be made to feel outcast and inadequate"

One who is cast out.

Ok. So far the only way you are, In Game, 'Cast Out' is that you can't own property on the surface (but really that's only something a DM deals with, not us), you can't vote, and you can't talk to Laurik.

There's no tell tale signs that your character is a pariah to society. The other npcs react to them just fine. So long as they avoid using undercommon, then they can mingle and chill out with whomever they want, wherever they want. Indeed in a way one could argue their 'abilities' are the exact opposite of what they're supposed to be - as they're more Welcome in places than they should be - they are able to hang about in the underdark.

Being an outcast, effectivly, means youre welcome in MORE parts of the server, not less.

Is this a huge problem?

No.

I'd be pretty happy if it continued this way.

But I at least thing it's fair to point out that this is a little strange.

The whole 'shtick' of the concept is 'One who is cast out of soceity for evil deeds.' But in play the npcs don't react to this (bar a couple of boat men and the voting registra), the surface PCs have no way of knowing. Only the underdark PCs would reliably know (due to use of undercommon/use of the portal) and such makes said outcast MORE welcome in an area.

You see the dissonance here? Now whether you think that dissonance is an issue is another matter. Maybe you think it's more worthwhile and rewarding for roleplay over the server if outcasts can easily pass amongst surfacers. I can see an argument for that certainly!

On the other hand, I hope that it's possible that I can at least get across why the issue is being brought up, why people are going, 'Hrn. That's a bit odd.' Even if other peoples response is 'Eh. Yeah but it's worth it.'

[Dr. B]

Honestly, if "Team Good", as it were, isn't able to figure out which of the humans and half-orcs who hang out with them are consorting with the Underdark races, then no, I'm not really sure there should be a consequence to playing an outcast (beyond the ones that currently exist). I do think that outcasts (being evil aligned) casually hobnobbing with goodly types is poor form (not just on the part of the outcast's player, but the other players, too), but that seems small-scale enough to let the DMs handle.

And honestly, what would really happen if outcasts were "branded"? I imagine most players wouldn't care, and things would go on as usual. Why? Because most surfacers who hang around with outcasts already know that the person they hang around with is an outcast, and I imagine most people would just as soon see the brand and not care.

[Ironsoul]

Just food for thought:

I’ve been playing an Outcast for a year more or less - and he has three of the mentioned brands on his face and exactly two people have noticed or acted on it without my bending over backwards to make it a big deal. (And even then people are inclined to be really non confrontational or even compassionate)

Is it a big deal? I don’t really think so - ultimately it’s the culture of the server that dictates this... and anecdotally I think the server has already spoken that nobody really cares that much outside a few forum goers.

Personally I wish there was more of a consequence; that’s why I made an Outcast after all, but after a while I just sort of let it slide since no one else made it an issue either.

[Blood on my Lips]

Don't forget that all outcasts, indeed all UD races, start off on a ship. Their being infamous where they came from doesn't equate to their being infamous to people on Arelith. That should be a consequence of their in-game conduct.

This.

Not all characters are going to know the history or reputation of every other person on the island. There's plenty of well known characters, good or evil, who residents of the island don't know about, names or reputations. So why in the world would they know who the Outcasts are?

How do you find out? Read message boards. Talk to other players. Listen to gossip and rumors. Interact with the Outcasts in some way. You should RP the discovery process just like you would have to RP to find out who other people are (Mayors, Archmages, Banites, Harpers, etc).

A mechanical means of identifying Outcasts for other players is not needed.

[Dr. B]

Yeah. If there is a mechanic that identifies outcasts for their reputation, why isn't there a mechanic that identifies a lot of people for their reputation? What seems like a straightforward case for upping outcast notoriety relies on a claim that isn't true, namely, that everyone should know who an outcast is because they are an outcast. Being an outcast does not entail this, no more than being a former politician or faction leader, people who are also reasonably noteworthy, entails it. Sure, a lot of people should probably know. But a person's in-game conduct should be the reason for that.

[Nitro]

I don't like the idea of brands or anything else that might append to a characters name or description, because those things can and likely will be used to metagame since disguise is a flawed system for actually keeping such things secret. Every server crash, every server transition there'll be a brief moment where anyone can see that damning tag, and while most players will play along, pretend they didn't notice it's still there in the back of their head.

And worse, it only takes one person with poor judgement and a noticeboard for weeks or months of careful disguise RP to go up in flames. The metagamy perpetrator might get banned, sure, but by that time the secret's already out of the box, everyone knows it and you can't make them un-know it.

And while Outcasts have a lot of notoriety SOMEWHERE in the world, that doesn't mean their name or face is known everywhere, especially not in a medieval society where the best means of fast communication available is mages with sending spells. Think of it like the most notorious murderer of France moving in to live next to you, chances are you've never heard of him and most certainly wouldn't recognize his face, especially not without internet or newspapers to spread the story straight to you about how he killed a dozen children.