YMA2's Outcast Suggestion

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One Two Three Five
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Re: YMA2's Outcast Suggestion

Post by One Two Three Five » Fri Feb 09, 2018 10:25 pm

Right, but what you want and what's good for the server and, when implemented, a flagging UD population- which I have no doubt will flag again, given how many thinly or not thinly veiled 'get rid of outcasts there's too many in the UD ' threads show up, since they comprise a good percentage of the UD player base- aren't the same.

If there isn't a problem, which there really isn't, beyond 'but what if they're getting away with it!?', there doesn't need to be a solution. It's been fine for years. How bout a seven page rogue feedback thread instead, fellow forumgoers
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Cybernet21
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Re: YMA2's Outcast Suggestion

Post by Cybernet21 » Fri Feb 09, 2018 10:26 pm

Gods_Kill_People wrote:Here, let me help by giving you the ACTUAL definition of Outcast.

1. - a person who has been rejected by society or a social group.

As it was implemented, you are rejected by Society....
Oh ok then,the description of the one who implemented the Outcast on the server (Irongron) and is on the Outcast article of the wiki is not a actual desription of what it means then?

My argument started because somedy came up with it (a IC tag or someway to identify Outcasts) and i did the research on Outcasts inside the Server sources (Here,Wiki,Encyclopedia) and formed my opinion from Irongron's description wich should mean what Outcasts are on the server since he was the one who implemented them.

If that isnt what Outcasts are anymore then i would think you guys should suggest to completely change the article on the wiki then.
My family were all knights,but none protected those who cannot fight for themselves.They all cared about their noble status more than anything else.I would be a true knight,i would train on the ways of the paladin -Arcavius Ryde

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One Two Three Five
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Re: YMA2's Outcast Suggestion

Post by One Two Three Five » Fri Feb 09, 2018 10:30 pm

That's not really a feedback thread thing though. Doesn't make this a good suggestion.

Hell, if we're going to go with the ol Admin Fiat/Word of Irongron thing? Outcasts have been here for years, relatively unchanged, and every single 'get rid of outcasts so the UD can die out again because I think outcast players will magically play drow, which they wont' suggestion has gotten precisely nowhere.

The only change was how to acquire outcast on existing characters, which isn't really the same wheelhouse as this particular circular argument.
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Re: YMA2's Outcast Suggestion

Post by Nitro » Fri Feb 09, 2018 10:35 pm

Cybernet21 wrote: And the why as i already mentioned before is so there is wall stopping the system being abused by people who just want easier acess to the UD and Surface at the same time but not RP what an Outcast is,i am not saying it is currently being abused but it is possible to be abused,why not have something to lower the chance of it being abused?
I mean, by that logic we may as well give a tag to warlocks too. After all, they might abuse their role and claim to be goody two-shoes who only use their pact for good otherwise. Or palemasters, heaven forbid someone just took the class for more AC and never RP'd about their undead traits in the middle of town.

And so on. Just because something can be abused, which lets face it, is almost everything in a 15 year old game is, doesn't mean it will be. Look at warlocks, there was a time when there were too many feylocks pretending that pacting to the unseelie wasn't so bad, and the DM's stepped in to make an event about how bad they actually are. That's the correct way to go about 'potential' RP "abuse" as you put it.

We don't need to police everything with automatic systems, that just serves to stifle creativity and lobs everyone in the same pot. If you think someone or multiple someones are abusing, send a tell to the DM's, because otherwise if we're worrying about even potential abuse, we might as well remove exile systems or anything else that could feasibly give one player power over another because they might be abused.

EDIT: Also on note of the wiki, things written years ago may no longer be the case in our everchanging environment. Hell, the slavery page had a quote on it from Mithreas suggesting that slaves shouldn't have magic weapons or level up too much because they might outlevel their owners, and that quote was up years into the new slavery system that made all that obsolete. If Irongron's quote still is the kosher word-of-the-law on that matter, then cool. The DM team probably sees a lot better than we do about what's going on with outcasts living on the surface, and react appropriately.

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One Two Three Five
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Re: YMA2's Outcast Suggestion

Post by One Two Three Five » Fri Feb 09, 2018 10:40 pm

We don't need to police everything with automatic systems
This is the solid crux of my objection to this. The game is automated enough without NPC-ifying our fellow player's chars into a list of stats (too late, partially fixed), affiliations (getting there), background notes, and explicitly stated class features, so that we know how to make our characters robotically act out the Proper Response to the revelations in the description menu, regardless of how people are RPing.

The argument of theoretical 'abuses' is a completely superficial one to me. You can make up a hypothetical abuse case for literally anything in the game, and with this specific one even if it's happened once, maybe twice, it's entirely anecdotal and more deserving of a quick PM to the dm team than any sort of argument. It just reads like a few people have gotten themselves worked up over someone maybe, possibly, at some point, playing an Outcast a way they personally don't like, and deciding the whole server needs to change as a result.

Now, the real answer is 'report that person,' but I'm willing to guess that person either doesn't exist or wasn't doing anything wrong, or that the result wasn't yalls business.
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BegoneThoth
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Re: YMA2's Outcast Suggestion

Post by BegoneThoth » Fri Feb 09, 2018 10:50 pm

That's why I suggested just removing it completely, and let anyone portal to anywhere, and let anyone buy property anywhere.

I don't see what purpose it serves right now.
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Dr. B
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Re: YMA2's Outcast Suggestion

Post by Dr. B » Fri Feb 09, 2018 11:05 pm

Gods_Kill_People wrote:Here, let me help by giving you the ACTUAL definition of Outcast.

1. - a person who has been rejected by society or a social group.

As it was implemented, you are rejected by Society....
This argumentum-ab-dictionarium was attempted in an earlier post and found wanting, because it is not a definitional truth that "a person who has been rejected by society or a social group" is known to everyone in the entire world, subsequent to the rejection, and the size and scope of the group doing the rejecting is unspecified in the definition. The causal mechanisms by how such information (including your character's appearance) comes to be disseminated and memorized by all people were also asked about, and I've yet to see a plausible explanation for it, because there is none. Then there's the fact that the name "Outcast" can be changed, like any aspect of the server, so even if all these mysterious definitional truths apply (which they don't) we can ask why we should keep the name.
Last edited by Dr. B on Fri Feb 09, 2018 11:10 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Cybernet21
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Re: YMA2's Outcast Suggestion

Post by Cybernet21 » Fri Feb 09, 2018 11:09 pm

I never did say to have everyone have a tag because it can be abused,but someone who took Palemaster for mechanics and doesnt RP any of the class would for me actually be open to suffer a RPR penalty(but of course it all depends on the DM's not us the players),but it doesnt make sense he is recognized as a Palemaster.

On the Outcast topic it actually makes sense they are recognized and of of the consequences that they are recognized is the stopping of possible abuse,and that isnt the only reason i stated all this ...it's only one of two,no one tried to argue with me the second statement on Immersion.

And as some have said,yes things change but if Outcasts arent what is stated on the wiki anymore then i suggest to change it,because as i said i formed my opinion on the topic using the Arelith definition,if that definition isnt true anymore it's just making so people form wrong thoughts on what Outcasts truly are. (like me on this whole topic since the beginning)

EDIT: But isnt the suggestion i posted a few posts back,having both Outcasts and what i called UD Dwellers exist at the same time,finding a compromise between everyone who stated their opinions on this topic?
Last edited by Cybernet21 on Fri Feb 09, 2018 11:12 pm, edited 1 time in total.
My family were all knights,but none protected those who cannot fight for themselves.They all cared about their noble status more than anything else.I would be a true knight,i would train on the ways of the paladin -Arcavius Ryde

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One Two Three Five
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Re: YMA2's Outcast Suggestion

Post by One Two Three Five » Fri Feb 09, 2018 11:12 pm

The causal mechanisms by how such information (including your character's appearance) comes to be disseminated and memorized by all people were also asked about, and I've yet to see a plausible explanation for it, because there is none.
yes
it actually makes sense they are recognized
Explain how
EDIT: Without using Hitler
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BegoneThoth
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Re: YMA2's Outcast Suggestion

Post by BegoneThoth » Fri Feb 09, 2018 11:12 pm

Well never trust the wiki, for one. It's a big but easy mistake to make.
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Dr. B
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Re: YMA2's Outcast Suggestion

Post by Dr. B » Fri Feb 09, 2018 11:16 pm

Look, if anyone can know who the outcasts are, then logically speaking, everyone in the game should be able to know my Outcast character's name from the simple fact that it is hovering over their head, before they've interacted with me in any way. This is a consequence of the system that some people here are advocating for. This is what you are essentially saying. It would make sense, if this system were implemented, for an Outcast character to walk around expecting everyone to know their name, on this view. An Outcast would be justified in chastising someone for not knowing their name because, according to this system, everyone has license to roleplay as if their character has memorized the Outcast's face and name...

Speaking of, how would people know this? Is there some Faerunian organization of concerned citizens keeping tabs on every instance of ostracism that occurs in the realms, catalogging all the information, include crystal clear descriptions of what each outcast looks like, and then uploading all this data into the brains of everyone else in Realmspace, to be stored and perfectly recalled when they see an actual Outcast?

I would NEVER play an Outcast if that were the case, and seeing people practice this sort of RP with the blessing of the Devs would probably be enough to make me quit the server in disgust, because it would be horrible RP and make very, very little sense in-universe. It would be a direct regression in the quality of RP that this server has taken over a decade to cultivate, which is founded around a spirit of creating your own stories and finding things out through the process of roleplaying. It would also probably be the source of a lot of rancorous post-PvP drama, because a lot of people who look for excuses to kill other characters would get a surge of power from a change like this. "Yes, I can now kill Outcasts with minimal interaction and no prior history! Life is good."

Is this the sort of thing that we think makes for good storytelling?
Last edited by Dr. B on Fri Feb 09, 2018 11:26 pm, edited 6 times in total.

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Re: YMA2's Outcast Suggestion

Post by Nitro » Fri Feb 09, 2018 11:20 pm

It's important to remember that Arelith only has 5 golden rules, and everything on the wiki is put there by a member of the community. Often these things are correct, but sometimes they are not. The Arelith DM team doesn't usually make clear definite rulings and go on a case-by-case basis for most things. That doesn't stop a player from copying down (what might well be definitive policy at the time) their rulings onto the wiki to be preserved until another ruling is made against it. Our rules page even has a little blurb on this phenomena:
A shadow rule is something that some players (incorrectly) believe are rules. The most common reason for the spread of shadow rules is that one or more players generalize one or more specific rulings into a rule, believing that said "rule" is universally valid in any situation. Many cases are alike, and the DMs might come to the same ruling for several different similar cases. Nevertheless, such a ruling should not be perceived as a universal rule. Spreading shadow rules is not very different from rumour mongering, and it's not advisable to do so. Always confirm with a DM or a dev.
It's entirely reasonable to presume Irongron's statement is correct, but like most other things it's probably on a case by case basis. If the DM's see an outcast abusing their status, or get reports about it they'll investigate and take appropriate action for the case. And if there does turn out to be some sort of epidemic of surface living outcasts, I'm confident they can handle that much like they handled goodly happy go lucky feylocks.

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Re: YMA2's Outcast Suggestion

Post by Cybernet21 » Fri Feb 09, 2018 11:26 pm

One Two Three Five wrote:
The causal mechanisms by how such information (including your character's appearance) comes to be disseminated and memorized by all people were also asked about, and I've yet to see a plausible explanation for it, because there is none.
yes
it actually makes sense they are recognized
Explain how
EDIT: Without using Hitler
I already did on some of the posts back,also i never did say to recognize the person's name on the description or their face fully,perhaps sketches of the face,or vague descriptions so it makes sense the Outcast seems familiar to rumours your character heard/read and so the IC tag has a believable way on how your character knows the person in front of them is an Outcast,but not the face down to every single detail so it also makes sense that it's easy to hide if the tag was an actual brand on the Outcast character.

I also stated several different suggestions that might be better for the people who are so agaisnt a tag,perhaps Guard NPC's that are there to protect the settlement from any threat and merchants that know who and who they shouldnt do bussiness with,dropping hints if the Outcast isnt hiding/disguising himself.Or Bounty Hunter parties spawning on areas close to setlements where ther are Outcasts that arent trying to hide in any way.Or,the most recent,having both UD Dwellers and Outcasts (The suggestion of what a UD Dweller is, is like very few posts back on this thread).So i'm trying to understand both sides even if i am cleary standing with one
My family were all knights,but none protected those who cannot fight for themselves.They all cared about their noble status more than anything else.I would be a true knight,i would train on the ways of the paladin -Arcavius Ryde

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One Two Three Five
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Re: YMA2's Outcast Suggestion

Post by One Two Three Five » Fri Feb 09, 2018 11:30 pm

So your alternate response is 'automate DMs.' Nice. Cool. Sounds like a lot of work for what is essentially a non-issue blown way out of proportion.
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Re: YMA2's Outcast Suggestion

Post by Dr. B » Fri Feb 09, 2018 11:32 pm

I already did on some of the posts back,also i never did say to recognize the person's name on the description or their face fully,perhaps sketches of the face,or vague descriptions so it makes sense the Outcast seems familiar to rumours your character heard/read and so the IC tag has a believable way on how your character knows the person in front of them is an Outcast,but not the face down to every single detail so it also makes sense that it's easy to hide if the tag was an actual brand on the Outcast character.
But how would they be able to identify everyone? And when, exactly, in-game, did the character consult this information? There are currently a lot of photos and sketches of wanted criminals in my city's police department, but I haven't taken the time to go and look at them, much less commit them to memory, and then there's the issue that other people might resemble the bad guy in the sketch, or that I might forget the way the sketch looked, or one of many other possible scenarios that make it very unlikely that I'll be able to reliably identify the perp after having glossed over this gallery, not to mention the likelihood that other people will resemble the perp.

It takes police a lot of training and experience to be able to ID a perp, not to mention a lot of gathering of information. Now we're assuming everyone has that training and access to information?

The idea that everyone can recognize every Outcast strains credibility, and there's no explanation for when, where, and how your character acquired this IC knowledge. Are we assuming that our characters spend time studiously poring over crime reports and mugshots from around the realms after we log off? Aren't there, like, millions and millions of people living in FR?

This makes literally no sense. Please do not implement.

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Re: YMA2's Outcast Suggestion

Post by Cybernet21 » Fri Feb 09, 2018 11:35 pm

My goal here is more focused on immersion(So much so that as i said,since this started i said many other suggestions that might be better and actually more immersive than IC tag/Brand etc...) than on a way to stop possible abuse (wich you are trying to call "automated DM's"),but it seems people just want to look down on one of the two reasons i stated wich is possible abuse and ignore the other reason.
My family were all knights,but none protected those who cannot fight for themselves.They all cared about their noble status more than anything else.I would be a true knight,i would train on the ways of the paladin -Arcavius Ryde

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Re: YMA2's Outcast Suggestion

Post by Nitro » Fri Feb 09, 2018 11:37 pm

I mean, people are calling out that what you're suggesting seems pretty un-immersive/realistic, so not really.

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Re: YMA2's Outcast Suggestion

Post by Dr. B » Fri Feb 09, 2018 11:37 pm

Cybernet21 wrote:My goal here is more focused on immersion
The proposal being debated is perhaps the most immersion-breaking idea I have ever encountered.

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Re: YMA2's Outcast Suggestion

Post by One Two Three Five » Fri Feb 09, 2018 11:39 pm

It doesn't help immersion either for everyone to have always on magic Outcast sight any more than it would to have always on magic Warlock sight, or Sharran sight, or evil sight, or tiefling sight, or or or or or or or.

It doesn't even make sense. It strains credibility far more, for me, than a shady human sneaking into Cordor and thereotically getting away with it. If your argument is immersion as opposed to abuse, then this suggestion is complete nonsense. It is anyway, but more so. It's downright silly. You might as well make the outcast tag something like 'This person's earlobe angle and eyebrow thickness indicates that they're a master criminal.'
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Re: YMA2's Outcast Suggestion

Post by Cybernet21 » Fri Feb 09, 2018 11:39 pm

Dr. B wrote:
I already did on some of the posts back,also i never did say to recognize the person's name on the description or their face fully,perhaps sketches of the face,or vague descriptions so it makes sense the Outcast seems familiar to rumours your character heard/read and so the IC tag has a believable way on how your character knows the person in front of them is an Outcast,but not the face down to every single detail so it also makes sense that it's easy to hide if the tag was an actual brand on the Outcast character.
But how would they be able to identify everyone? And when, exactly, in-game, did the character consult this information? There are currently a lot of photos and sketches of wanted criminals in my city's police department, but I haven't taken the time to go and look at them, much less commit them to memory, and then there's the issue that other people might resemble the bad guy in the sketch, or that I might forget the way the sketch looked, or one of many other possible scenarios that make it very unlikely that I'll be able to reliably identify the perp after having glossed over this gallery, not to mention the likelihood that other people will resemble the perp.

It takes police a lot of training and experience to be able to ID a perp, not to mention a lot of gathering of information. Now we're assuming everyone has that training and access to information?

The idea that everyone can recognize every Outcast strains credibility, and there's no explanation for when, where, and how your character acquired this IC knowledge. Are we assuming that our characters spend time studiously poring over crime reports and mugshots from around the realms after we log off? Aren't there, like, millions and millions of people living in FR?

This makes literally no sense. Please do not implement.
Yes,that is why on the original thread this topic came from (wich is linked on one of the first posts here),i said the IC tag (before i came with other suggestions) could be something along the lines of "Your character might remember seeing descriptions and readig rumours someone who ressembles the person in front of you as an Outcast" so if you think your character wouldnt remember the rumour they read sometime back you could go with that and RP it that way but at least there wouldbe a way to know somoene is an Outcast
My family were all knights,but none protected those who cannot fight for themselves.They all cared about their noble status more than anything else.I would be a true knight,i would train on the ways of the paladin -Arcavius Ryde

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Dr. B
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Re: YMA2's Outcast Suggestion

Post by Dr. B » Fri Feb 09, 2018 11:42 pm

"Your character might remember seeing descriptions and readig rumours someone who ressembles the person in front of you as an Outcast" so if you think your character wouldnt remember the rumour they read sometime back you could go with that and RP it that way but at least there wouldbe a way to know somoene is an Outcast
There's no honor system holding people to that. By large, if this policy were implemented, there would be a sudden, implausible spike in everyone's level of information. It's like everyone on Arelith would be the Shadow Broker. This shouldn't even be an option.

This also doesn't speak to the fact that no one ever consulted this info IG, under this system.
Last edited by Dr. B on Fri Feb 09, 2018 11:45 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: YMA2's Outcast Suggestion

Post by Cybernet21 » Fri Feb 09, 2018 11:44 pm

Nitro wrote:I mean, people are calling out that what you're suggesting seems pretty un-immersive/realistic, so not really.
Until now,people are only calling out one of the many suggestions i did wich is the tag and me agreeing that the brand where this thread came from being a good idea.(edit:where is it immersive breaking for Outcasts to have bounty hunters on their tail for example?)

But it seems this discussion isnt taking us anywhere and i am in the minority here,thank you for the people who heard me out and didnt jump at me on first sight,hope we meet IG and have fun RP in the future.
My family were all knights,but none protected those who cannot fight for themselves.They all cared about their noble status more than anything else.I would be a true knight,i would train on the ways of the paladin -Arcavius Ryde

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Re: YMA2's Outcast Suggestion

Post by One Two Three Five » Fri Feb 09, 2018 11:46 pm

That and, ironically, all it would take to 'abuse' this is one person to roll up (or grab) a character with even the lamest tertiary reason to want to kill Outcasts- 'They've done evil and don't intend to change' is a good one- to go around bio-checking every single character in a binary pvp yes/no murderfest. We already have enough One-Liner-to-Hostiled-to-Dead 'roleplay' problems as it is.
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Re: YMA2's Outcast Suggestion

Post by Cybernet21 » Fri Feb 09, 2018 11:50 pm

I admited defeat,while my opinion hasnt changed and (most) of my suggestions still stand it seems most of the community doesnt agree with me and i can respect that.No need to throw arguments around at what i said anymore ;)
My family were all knights,but none protected those who cannot fight for themselves.They all cared about their noble status more than anything else.I would be a true knight,i would train on the ways of the paladin -Arcavius Ryde

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Re: YMA2's Outcast Suggestion

Post by Durvayas » Sat Feb 10, 2018 3:38 am

BegoneThoth wrote:I'd want it removed and just let whoever use the Hub port.

If it isn't making people social outcasts, and NPC's have access to a list of names the players can never see, then you really don't have to act like an 'outcast' at all, just don't attempt to buy property and avoid the boats.

So I see it doing nothing positive at all, and think it should be removed.
I'm just going to point out that the reason the Hub portal is limited to outcasts and slaves in the first place is that Andunor used to get raided, regularly, by high epic 'good guy' PCs, that would portal into the hub fully warded, start a fight either by themselves or in a group of fully warded buddies, that would involve killing low level drow, orogs, duergar, etc., and then portal right out.

Its already been demonstrated that the server's population can't handle that because team good will use it to be silly.

Imagine if there was a portal in the nomad that UD races could pop in and out of at will. Imagine if the cordor guard just stood there and did absolutely nothing about the monsters(some of which are visually indistinguishable from the locals) walking into town to attune to that portal, and then did nothing when they began raiding it.
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