YMA2's Outcast Suggestion

An area to facilitate free-form feedback on systems (in-game or out) related to Arelith.

Moderators: Forum Moderators, Active DMs, Contributors

Aelryn Bloodmoon
Arelith Supporter
Arelith Supporter
Posts: 2028
Joined: Thu Sep 11, 2014 4:57 pm

Re: YMA2's Outcast Suggestion

Post by Aelryn Bloodmoon » Sat Feb 10, 2018 6:34 am

Seven Sons of Sin wrote:(why isn't this in the Feedback section?)

Also, we should've never allowed surface races to so easily integrate into the UD, unless the long-term goal is to wholly transform the Underdark into Skullport.
The Admin/DM Team have been comparing Andunor specifically to Skullport as opposed to Menzoberranzan(sp?) for quite a while now when it comes up in discussion, IIRC. So instead of thinking of it as a transformation yet to happen, think of it more as "it has been this way."

Perhaps a wider variety of NPC representation down there might help facilitate this perception, or maybe not. I don't know; I don't spend a lot of time down there.




I personally don't understand what everyone's so up in arms about or why people are making the outrageous statement that people who support the tags just don't want outcasts to do "X." I've found most of the outcasts (and slaves, who also have this horrible, world-shattering tag we're arguing about, yet somehow manage) to be extremely engaging. I'm not trying to punish them.

What I take the most logical exception to in this whole argument is that there is this subsection of reasoning backing the argument against tags that seem to amount to 'I don't care what the Admin/Owner and creator of the concept had in mind when he put outcasts forward for the server, this is how I think it should be, so that's how I want (and am going to continue) to treat it.'

To me, that is exactly the kind of OOC response that does prompt some form of IC notification in the description as a good idea.

No matter how good your reasoning to propose a change is (and I wouldn't care if the block in the ruling about being notorious everywhere was changed, personally, but it hasn't been), your entire premise is wrong when you come at it from the stance of "Everyone who agrees with the Admin's words are wrong/attacking me because I don't find them convenient."


Also, @ suggestion being mentioned in OP, I think it's pretty sweet, personally. The RP behind each one is generalized but fits, and grants a stat-of-choice boost on creation for background. Wouldn't that be the only background with that kind of statistical oomph?
Bane's tyranny is known throughout the continent, and his is the image most seen as the face of evil.
-Faiths and Pantheons (c)2002

User avatar
Dr. B
Posts: 907
Joined: Mon Jan 01, 2018 5:36 pm

Re: YMA2's Outcast Suggestion

Post by Dr. B » Sat Feb 10, 2018 6:42 am

Sigh. Does someone want to reply to that or do I have to? Just how many people are convinced that this proposed change is a good idea? Let me know so I can get a sense of whether continuing this argument is necessary, because this change is a horrible idea and I'll literally pay money to prevent it from being implemented. But if not enough people are behind it, I don't care.

Astral
Posts: 1229
Joined: Tue Feb 02, 2016 6:18 pm

Re: YMA2's Outcast Suggestion

Post by Astral » Sat Feb 10, 2018 6:50 am

From the 'feeling' view point, playing an outcast does feel like playing an outcast. I went to Cordor, once, and very soon I realized the npc guards have high Spot check, Laurik wont take you on his boat, some other NPCs reject the interaction with you. Very soon, I felt awkward setting a foot in Cordor, as it should be. So pushing this direction of further developing the interactions of NPCs with outcasts could be really sweet and much more interesting than some dry mechanical bonus that (I think) could all the same be a -1 to an attribute rather than a +1. The tag in the description, I dont mind as long as it can be -disguise(d). Hells, It would actually be very good.

The path, over all, is thematic. It has no mechanical advantages other than the portal and the language (which dont make your character stronger). The trade off is portal and language vs being an outcast on surface settlements. I think we should push this direction.
Currently playing: Seth Xylo

User avatar
Mirw
Arelith Platinum Supporter
Arelith Platinum Supporter
Posts: 205
Joined: Sat Apr 18, 2015 11:04 am
Location: Budapest, Hungary

Re: YMA2's Outcast Suggestion

Post by Mirw » Sat Feb 10, 2018 8:05 am

Durvayas wrote:
BegoneThoth wrote:I'd want it removed and just let whoever use the Hub port.

If it isn't making people social outcasts, and NPC's have access to a list of names the players can never see, then you really don't have to act like an 'outcast' at all, just don't attempt to buy property and avoid the boats.

So I see it doing nothing positive at all, and think it should be removed.
I'm just going to point out that the reason the Hub portal is limited to outcasts and slaves in the first place is that Andunor used to get raided, regularly, by high epic 'good guy' PCs, that would portal into the hub fully warded, start a fight either by themselves or in a group of fully warded buddies, that would involve killing low level drow, orogs, duergar, etc., and then portal right out.

Its already been demonstrated that the server's population can't handle that because team good will use it to be silly.

Imagine if there was a portal in the nomad that UD races could pop in and out of at will. Imagine if the cordor guard just stood there and did absolutely nothing about the monsters(some of which are visually indistinguishable from the locals) walking into town to attune to that portal, and then did nothing when they began raiding it.
"Burn Them All!"
Plays as Ret, the pyromaniac tribal wargob

User avatar
BegoneThoth
Posts: 1589
Joined: Fri Oct 06, 2017 5:20 am

Re: YMA2's Outcast Suggestion

Post by BegoneThoth » Sat Feb 10, 2018 8:09 am

But, there is a portal anyone can use to get there. I use it. Others use it too.

So that's not really an argument.
\

User avatar
Durvayas
Arelith Supporter
Arelith Supporter
Posts: 2207
Joined: Sun May 31, 2015 6:20 am

Re: YMA2's Outcast Suggestion

Post by Durvayas » Sat Feb 10, 2018 10:13 am

BegoneThoth wrote:But, there is a portal anyone can use to get there. I use it. Others use it too.

So that's not really an argument.
Irongron(Sept/13/2016) wrote:...Almost all restrictive systems, whether it was the circle-grind script or the disabling of the Hub portal in Andunor arose from a situation where DMs could not longer be expected to handle the volume of problematic situations, and players demanded some concrete action.

In Andunor I made the portal useable by all at first, and declined to give the Peacekeepers there any mechanical function. In these cases I wanted to trust the players to RP accordingly. Well it wasn't long before surfacers were launching attacks from the portal in the middle of the city, ignoring the peacekeepers as they did so. The result was a restriction on the portal, and the RP of all those who WERE playing within the spirit of the location being heavily curtailed. For a few glorious weeks beforehand we had a location used and role-played in by all, and afterwards? Well, as I said above, everyone got punished for the actions of a few, and a new clumsy mechanic was placed.
The slum portal is still there and usable for surfacers because it hasn't seen egregious enough use for it to get closed down like the hub portal... Yet.
ActionReplay(Oct/11/2017) wrote:
Durvayas wrote:
Gods_Kill_People wrote:Um, considering a pack of them can simply portal into the Slums and go from there on a mass killing spree....it deters nothing.
We have long been advocating for the slum portal be to be keyed to UD races and slaves only. This is nothing new. Just an oversight on the dev's part, since eliminating surface use of the hub portal only means they can slum in, and then lense out.
Yeah not a fan of that portal.
But it is on the dev team's radar, and it is a problem. Just not enough so that it has been judged nescessary to fix yet.
Plays: Durvayas(deleted), Marco(deleted), Hounynrae(NPC), Sinithra Auvry'ndal(rolled), Rauvlin Barrith(Active), Madeline Clavelle(Shelved)

JediMindTrix
Posts: 1190
Joined: Wed Feb 04, 2015 6:35 am

Re: YMA2's Outcast Suggestion

Post by JediMindTrix » Sat Feb 10, 2018 5:22 pm

Dr. B wrote:Sigh. Does someone want to reply to that or do I have to?
How rude, flippant, and dismissive

User avatar
Dr. B
Posts: 907
Joined: Mon Jan 01, 2018 5:36 pm

Re: YMA2's Outcast Suggestion

Post by Dr. B » Sat Feb 10, 2018 6:03 pm

The post I'm responding to is abrasive and impugns the motives of the people arguing on the other side, so I can't say I feel especially remorseful for the tone of my response.

User avatar
BegoneThoth
Posts: 1589
Joined: Fri Oct 06, 2017 5:20 am

Re: YMA2's Outcast Suggestion

Post by BegoneThoth » Sat Feb 10, 2018 7:07 pm

Is that the real reason the portal is blocked off? Due to pvp?
\

User avatar
Dr. B
Posts: 907
Joined: Mon Jan 01, 2018 5:36 pm

Re: YMA2's Outcast Suggestion

Post by Dr. B » Sat Feb 10, 2018 7:23 pm

Yes. Epic surfacers were coming down there and throwing their weight around, indiscriminately paying back transgressions by certain UD players on anyone and everyone in the Hub, so now surfacers can't use that portal. Originally, anyone could.

User avatar
BegoneThoth
Posts: 1589
Joined: Fri Oct 06, 2017 5:20 am

Re: YMA2's Outcast Suggestion

Post by BegoneThoth » Sat Feb 10, 2018 7:45 pm

Sounds like good RP. Should just be made totally public again.
\

User avatar
Dr. B
Posts: 907
Joined: Mon Jan 01, 2018 5:36 pm

Re: YMA2's Outcast Suggestion

Post by Dr. B » Sat Feb 10, 2018 7:49 pm

Going into the UD and hassling level 3 newbies because some epic drow came up to the surface and killed someone is horrible RP, and takes away from the enjoyment of the server. It is concerning to me to hear some of the notions of what counts as good roleplay being expressed on this thread, everything from the claim that anyone should be able to mechanically recognize another player to the claim that epic bullying of lowbies is good roleplay. Truly, this is dispiriting.

Dragonovith
Contributor
Contributor
Posts: 600
Joined: Tue Sep 12, 2017 7:58 pm

Re: YMA2's Outcast Suggestion

Post by Dragonovith » Sat Feb 10, 2018 8:04 pm

Well, the Hub portal isn't completely blocked off to surfacers. A surfacer can't travel from that portal, yes, but it can travel to the portal as if it was a destination only portal. There's a way to unlock that, but since it hasn't been fixed yet, I wonder if it is a glitch or just a secret thing.

User avatar
Dr. B
Posts: 907
Joined: Mon Jan 01, 2018 5:36 pm

Re: YMA2's Outcast Suggestion

Post by Dr. B » Sat Feb 10, 2018 8:07 pm

It's basically a deterrent. Having to walk out of the Hub is inconvenient, and allows you to be pursued or intercepted by a party of epic Underdarkers if they can mobilize in time. I originally thought that the portal in the Slum Caverns defeated the whole purpose, but thus far I haven't noticed a major problem. And, again, this is why I submit that this "issue" could be resolved fairly if Outcasts were simply denied return travel from all two-way surface portals except Stonehold.

User avatar
BegoneThoth
Posts: 1589
Joined: Fri Oct 06, 2017 5:20 am

Re: YMA2's Outcast Suggestion

Post by BegoneThoth » Sat Feb 10, 2018 8:20 pm

Dr. B wrote:Going into the UD and hassling level 3 newbies because some epic drow came up to the surface and killed someone is horrible RP, and takes away from the enjoyment of the server.
I don't follow. Drow raids are good, counter attack drow raids take away from the enjoyment of the server?
\

User avatar
Baron Saturday
Posts: 2364
Joined: Mon Sep 08, 2014 4:34 am

Re: YMA2's Outcast Suggestion

Post by Baron Saturday » Sat Feb 10, 2018 8:31 pm

There's a difference between a Drow raid on a wilderness area, or even on the exterior of a settlement, and a bunch of characters porting directly into a city trade hub with intent to turn it into a warzone while metagaming the nonresponsiveness of the NPC guards.

Locking the Hub portal definitely needed to happen.

And this thread is now a million miles off-topic. Can we end it, please?
Rolled: Helene d'Arque, Sara Lyonall
Shelved: Kels Vetian, Cin ys'Andalis, Saul Haidt
Playing: Oshe Jordain

User avatar
BegoneThoth
Posts: 1589
Joined: Fri Oct 06, 2017 5:20 am

Re: YMA2's Outcast Suggestion

Post by BegoneThoth » Sat Feb 10, 2018 8:37 pm

Yeah think it needs to end.
\

User avatar
The GrumpyCat
Dungeon Master
Dungeon Master
Posts: 6565
Joined: Sun Jan 18, 2015 5:47 pm

Re: YMA2's Outcast Suggestion

Post by The GrumpyCat » Sat Feb 10, 2018 11:18 pm

Yeah, locking this thread.
This too shall pass.

(I now have a DM Discord (I hope) It's DM GrumpyCat#7185 but please keep in mind I'm very busy IRL so I can't promise how quick I'll get back to you.)

Locked