YMA2's Outcast Suggestion

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Cybernet21
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Re: YMA2's Outcast Suggestion

Post by Cybernet21 » Wed Feb 07, 2018 11:34 pm

azrael_athing wrote:
Cybernet21 wrote:Also outcasts are terrible people,they are serial killers,mass torturers,mass murderers,etc.. it's the definition of a Outcast on FR and on Arelith,the example of a guy being thrown our of town and forced into banditry on the roads is not of an Outcast but of a simple bandit/highwayman
Arelith Wiki wrote:This individual has a degree of notoriety among the populace, whether through actions of their own, family connections, disfigurement, or being falsely accused, their identity is wildly known and rumours about them persists to this day.
Our own Wiki actually includes wrongly-accused individuals. So they are not ALL henious people.

Given the description on the forum I suppose for example, one could roleplay a falsly accused individual forced to pretend to be a mass-murdurer in order to fit into the new society where it is now forced to live.

That said, their notority would still be well-spread.
I read the wiki over and over again and used as a basis for my argument...the example that was given(being cast out of one town and going fo baditry on the roads)was not what the definition of Outcasts quoted on that.

So much so that Outcasts start on UD, why would a simple bandit thrown out of one town and going for banditry on the roads live on the UD and why would he be wildly known by almost every settlement if he was thrown out of one,one more part that is missing:


"... it is up to the players themselves to RP outcasts appropriately. Remember, this doesn't mean you can't like and/or befriend them, but that in doing so you would be breaching the conventions of society in a serious fashion. Picture some of the worst people in human history, and imagine yourself walking down the street with them in your home town"

EDIT: oh and this: "...Any individual player character may choose to disbelieve or forgive an outcast, but they simply lack the capacity to convince an entire nation to share their views."

So a very infamous bandit might become(as in being infamous for a whole nation or more and being officialy called one) an Outcast,but not all bandits are the Outcasts being talked about.

And while those falsely accused may not be henious people,they are perceived as one
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Re: YMA2's Outcast Suggestion

Post by The Salt Elemental » Thu Feb 08, 2018 3:15 am

Dr. B wrote:Why do people feel like the Outcast system needs to be revamped? What's the issue that needs to be solved? Aren't there more pressing things for the team to focus on?
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Re: YMA2's Outcast Suggestion

Post by Mirw » Thu Feb 08, 2018 10:12 am

maybe you missed this Salty while you read over the post
Wordless Truth wrote:
Dr. B wrote:Why do people feel like the Outcast system needs to be revamped? What's the issue that needs to be solved? Aren't there more pressing things for the team to focus on?
Hey, relax, they're just discussing a cool idea. Not important to you? Just move on.

And what do you even mean, should people stop writing down and discussing their ideas completely because there are other 'important' matters?

Devs work on the things they feel are necessary, or fun for them anyway. I don't think verbalising your own agenda strongly helps your case in any sense. In this specific case, the matter is being looked at. There's not much to say or do now (except for giving neutral, technical input in the thread itself), especially not in a completely different thread.

- Why a player wants to make an Outcast if he/she does not wants to its Outcast to be known Outcast?
If an outcast have committed crime on distant shores and on Arelith it is unknown, or the Outcast commited something which is not known at all by Arelith, it is not Outcast. The Outcast is no different than a normal evil human character (if the outcast played evilly at all) just with free extra benefits and a "disguise" on surface/UD which cannot be detected. It is only a free entrance to surface towns, shops and roleplay where this benefit for any other underdark race is highly risky and needs high disguise. In the opposite it also helps any surfacer character to pretend to be an outcast in the UD, makes it very easy to visit, infiltrate the city. Undercommon is easile available for any character.

Example for my goblin outcast:
"I am a goblin but look, i dont want to look like a goblin, nor restricted like a goblin, because i was born goblin, i choosed to be goblin, but i dont want you to know i am a goblin. I can be a hin instead and if i act ICly like a goblin, you can handle me like a goblin, buuuut meanwhile i am a hin,with all the hin-pass, hin-nish attitude, since you cannot say i am a goblin, i look like a hin. "

If only IC actions have weight than no need for Outcast sub-race at all, IC is for IC, since you can do the same with IC actions to be outcasted, exiled from surface settlements, learn undercommon and live down in the UD. The Outcast is very debatable in my opinion, to decide where its place to be exactly,
- is an UD race?
- is it Surface race, and should be care like that in the UD accordingly?
- is it a spceial hybrid with both acceptance of the places (current status), immune to all and any must-hate surfacer-underdarker relations, and undetectable except IG actions for a limited part of the server, with a free entrance to everywhere?
It was a good idea to fill the "old times empty UD server needs" however with current numbers and EE coming i dont think its existance in the current state not so relevant anymore in this scale.
I would like to be interested the race ratio in the UD, of Human outcast vs. any other races. Its really nice race indeed to be allowed to rp everywhere but when if i think about a player to choose between a race which likely hunted-bash killed on surface/underdark in a possible encounter, than choose a race with very protected with the undetectable race and backgrounf and general attitude against them, also with benefits of free pass all cities? I think its not a hard decision to pick an Outcast over some other races in the UD to be an evil folk to have access to both planes.
(different topic related subject...
The Outcast presence in the Ud is a different topic, how the whole underdark culture have changed into ignorance of the humans around, which have good and bad sides, i understand. If this is what the DEV wants for UD, than it should be communicated clearly, since there are only interpretations of the certain hints/wikipedia, developments. Like there is an allowed outcast, that mean we allow all humans free to pass in Underdark? We cannot tell who is who, why bother endless PvP with every human player, and after their human friends to hunt you down ...etc etc)
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Re: YMA2's Outcast Suggestion

Post by Cortex » Thu Feb 08, 2018 10:14 am

Different devs/contributors work on different things.

SS is Kirito.

Outcasts may be whoever else.

No need to pull the "but more important things" card.
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Re: YMA2's Outcast Suggestion

Post by Nitro » Thu Feb 08, 2018 11:46 am

Would people be satisfied if the outcast background was renamed 'Skullporter'? Because the background already is essentially 'underdark human'.

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Re: YMA2's Outcast Suggestion

Post by PresidentCthulhu » Thu Feb 08, 2018 12:17 pm

Nitro wrote:Would people be satisfied if the outcast background was renamed 'Skullporter'? Because the background already is essentially 'underdark human'.
I don’t think it would solve the fact they are indistinguishable from regular ones which is basically the root cause of several already listed problems. It is fine there are humans down there the problem is that this status gives a benefit no one has. Which would be also fine, but this effects the RP of everyone. Surface only races doesn’t have and easy time in the UD and monster races get even rougher treatment if found up there (Add in some artificial sunlight sensitivity that is added to “skull porter” drow). Then just let everyone roam freely and everyone can decide IG (a horrible idea imo). But what’s the point of the tension even IC, when humans are coexisting with monster races for how long now?

Edit ps: as a thought practice just imagine if a background option was given to drow to live in cordor, called “banished”. They are too good so were exiled, sometimes by false claims. Exact same analogy.
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Re: YMA2's Outcast Suggestion

Post by Ork » Thu Feb 08, 2018 2:21 pm

..everyone CAN roam freely and let RP decide, tho

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Re: YMA2's Outcast Suggestion

Post by Nitro » Thu Feb 08, 2018 2:31 pm

PresidentCthulhu wrote: Edit ps: as a thought practice just imagine if a background option was given to drow to live in cordor, called “banished”. They are too good so were exiled, sometimes by false claims. Exact same analogy.
That is an awful analogy though. We have humans, the most versatile race in the world with equal prospensity for good and evil, where it's impossible to tell if a human is evil or hang out in the underground at a glance barring a paler complexion, which might just make them a northerner.

Versus drow, the race where literally every member is born evil, and the vast majority remain evil for their whole lifespan, doing horrible things to people in general.

Point is that there's no way to tell if a human lives above or below ground just by looking at them briefly, you'd need to interact with them and they're just as likely to be welcomed above and below, even in super drow centric underdark cities like menzoberranzan there's a significant amount of lower class humans bumming around, do you think the average surfacer would be able to tell them apart from a surface human? They'd likely just be classified under 'weird pale foreigner'.

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Re: YMA2's Outcast Suggestion

Post by PresidentCthulhu » Thu Feb 08, 2018 4:04 pm

Well put together, but missed the point. The analogy is there to help understand how the situation feels and what have it caused. The humans adapted to under dark life are called deep imaskari. Yes I know in skullport you have a lot of “regular” humans (pirates and gangers mostly). I’m not campaigning against humans in Andunor still, but the outcast as it is now still allows surfaces and outcasts to go anywhere without any effort put into it.

Also if you wish I can give you an analogy that is more plausible let’s call them elistraeean drows instead. You cannot debunk that with the born evil card. But again it was meant to be what it is: a thought practice not a suggestion.
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Re: YMA2's Outcast Suggestion

Post by Dr. B » Thu Feb 08, 2018 6:06 pm

What exactly is supposed to be the outcome of these proposed changes? Keeping Outcasts in the UD? Making the Outcasts' lives more inconvenient to make up for the convenience of being able to use the Underdark portal? Or correcting for a supposed error in wording because these are "Outcasts" and therefore supposed to be shunned by the surface?

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Re: YMA2's Outcast Suggestion

Post by Cybernet21 » Fri Feb 09, 2018 2:55 am

Dr. B wrote:What exactly is supposed to be the outcome of these proposed changes? Keeping Outcasts in the UD? Making the Outcasts' lives more inconvenient to make up for the convenience of being able to use the Underdark portal? Or correcting for a supposed error in wording because these are "Outcasts" and therefore supposed to be shunned by the surface?
As i already said here for me the outcome would so there are walls put up in case of abuse even if no one is abusing it now(safety measures am i right?)and more immersion for people who already RP outcasts as being very cautious on surface settlements since they are actually shunned away if they make a mistake or dont hide themselves so it gives more sense of danger being on the surface and of you actually being perceived as a horrible person (by you i mean the character of course)
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Re: YMA2's Outcast Suggestion

Post by Dr. B » Fri Feb 09, 2018 3:33 am

Why would people in Arelith know what my character has done if they did it on another continent? This totally railroads a person's RP.

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Re: YMA2's Outcast Suggestion

Post by Gods_Kill_People » Fri Feb 09, 2018 3:36 am

Look at it this way, by playing an outcast, "you are accepting the terms and conditions that comes with it and understand that the character will be judged and played as an OUTCAST from society"

Literally, the IG world is seeing you as Hitler. Whether you were falsely accused of a serious crime or actually DID the crime, you as Hitler are known across the isles to be a repulsive monster that NO ONE wants in their settlements. Your RP and such...should ALWAYS reflect that.

If you don't want that kinda rp...don't play an Outcast.

Post by Dr. B » 09 Feb 2018 03:33

Why would people in Arelith know what my character has done if they did it on another continent? This totally railroads a person's RP.

Simply, the entire world wasn't there to know what Hitler did...but I bet you damn near every country in the world can tell you he was a monster that they wouldn't want in their country.

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Re: YMA2's Outcast Suggestion

Post by Dr. B » Fri Feb 09, 2018 3:53 am

OK, so

(1) How is my level 2 character able to do something on such a grand scale that they get the reputation of Hitler, especially

(2) bearing in mind that part of the reason Hitler is famous is because he lived in the 20th century where information can be spread worldwide really quickly?

I'm especially interested in your answer to (1). There's nothing in the definition of an "Outcast" suggesting that my character has achieved worldwide fame.

Heck, the only characters I can think of who achieve that level of fame in the Forgotten Realms are evil deities and some very powerful, famous villains. But my level 2 character who is very unskilled and weak and has very little gold? How did they do this, exactly?

Outcast =/= has the reputation of Hitler.

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Re: YMA2's Outcast Suggestion

Post by Dr. B » Fri Feb 09, 2018 3:59 am

Another question, for all you who think being an outcast means your character has the reputation of Hitler:

I play an Outcast. I do not conceive of my Outcast as having the fame of Hitler, or having done anything to achieve that level of fame, certainly not when I created her. Heck, achieving that level of fame is my character's long-term goal. Am I playing my Outcast wrong by having her strive for infamy when she is supposed to have already possessed it the minute she stepped off the boat? Because that is not how her backstory is written.

What could she have possibly done in her short life with her limited abilities to reach that level of fame? She would have to do something on a large scale to widely affect the realms in order to get the attention of, essentially, everyone in the world? :?:

Basically, in making this the biography for my character, which does not include having the reputation of Hitler, have I violated the requirements of playing an Outcast?

Because it seems absurd that I have; and it also seems bizarre that I am to expect that everyone else knows who she is.

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Re: YMA2's Outcast Suggestion

Post by Gods_Kill_People » Fri Feb 09, 2018 4:05 am

1. the average NPC is lvl 1 in reality, your char is ALWAYS above the norm

2. Hitler came into power in 1933, the Internet was not a thing then, and yet the whole world still knew of him...How you ask...well lets look at Faerun equivalent. Bards, Newspapers, Adventurers, gossip, the list goes on.

3. Also to the new question -It can come from your family line too, maybe you were accused of trying to murder a king, maybe you were accused of robbing the royal treasury. Also...clearly since you were branded an outcast, you CLEARLY messed up. Meaning your not the best of the best and got ran out after branding. Meaning you wouldn't have money or gear or crap.

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Re: YMA2's Outcast Suggestion

Post by Dr. B » Fri Feb 09, 2018 4:09 am

maybe you were accused of robbing the royal treasury.
Why on Earth would you be known the world over for this?
1. the average NPC is lvl 1 in reality, your char is ALWAYS above the norm
There are lots and lots and lots of low level adventurers out there. It's unlikely that being somewhat more capable than the average mook on the street is enough to let them rise to Hitler-tier status in a world where people are capable of very powerful feats, and where people with power tend to be high level with many feats at their disposal.

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Re: YMA2's Outcast Suggestion

Post by One Two Three Five » Fri Feb 09, 2018 4:30 am

Man you people sure do talk about Hitler a lot.

Agreed with DR B here though (and with the good doctor's suggestion over a few forums down) the rest of this still seems like 'changing things for the sake of changing it' navelgazing.

And, frankly, a disguised 'get rid of outcasts' discussion, really. 'Make them a pita to play, and they'll be rarer.' You know those people who then wouldn't make outcasts aren't going to magically play drow, right? That's what most outcast discussions come down to, really. Somehow limiting humans in the UD will push people into playing drow or whatever and, man.

It wont. It just wont. I love outcasts and imaskari and orogs but without one of those three I would never in a million years touch a UD race.
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Re: YMA2's Outcast Suggestion

Post by Dr. B » Fri Feb 09, 2018 4:35 am

A fix to Outcasts should be about balancing advantages and disadvantages, not on imposed claims about the nature of your character's background. On that note, here's an alternative suggestion.

Also,
Gods_Kill_People wrote:2. Hitler came into power in 1933, the Internet was not a thing then, and yet the whole world still knew of him...
Because they had TV and knew what his face looked like. How is everyone my character runs into able to recognize their face?

There's no logical explanation for how everyone knows who the Outcasts are just from their faces; ultimately it's a fictional game world and anyone can invent any set of rules they want to justify the policies they want, so let's focus on the question of what would be fair here when we consider the advantages and disadvantages of choosing a background. No one wants to play a character that everyone knows on sight and wants to kill from the moment they step off the boat. The idea does not sound fun, we could probably expect to see less Outcasts and thus a more dead UD, and it takes away authorship of the character from the player.

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Re: YMA2's Outcast Suggestion

Post by FrozenSolid » Fri Feb 09, 2018 5:59 am

When I first began playing on Arelith I came from other places that had a much stricter maintained environments that came from NPCs that maintain said environment along with systems in place that also maintained said atmosphere. It was not possible to play outside of the particular narrative of the server at the time and that was fine, if you liked the narrative.

This server was also smaller then Arelith and had many other differences.

I bring that up because this is how I understand the approach Arelith takes.

Mechanical enforcement of RP standards and NPCs are used to maintain a very general atmosphere that keeps Arelith 'stable' and promotes what seems to be the most productive environment to allow players to take control and allow freedom for all sorts of characters, concepts, and types of play within reason.

The current outcast system comes with some mechanical advantages and disadvantages these are used to maintain the servers desired atmosphere in a general sense. But the details and the stuff that really matters is all left up to us as players.

So I do not think the Outcast system needs a grand reworking
Most of the complaints against the system seem to me to be things that players could enforce or discover IC. Which is the point of almost all Arelith systems, to empower players to RP how their character is meant to be rpd without having to adhere to an over bearing system that forces a singluar style of play.

My opinion is that the current outcast system does this well enough. The consequences of being an outcast and the impact that has or doesn't have is left largely up to players to decide.

The mechanical features of the outcast system act as a guideline to make sure things remain reasonable, without overly infringing on a players play style. But also not allowing just anything


So that's my opinion, restated perhaps in a more detailed fashion. I like the removal of the npc and I think that is actually doing what most people are requesting.

I think Arelith does a good job balancing enforcement of standards while also allowing a lot of freedom, the same goes for the outcast system.
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Re: YMA2's Outcast Suggestion

Post by Aelryn Bloodmoon » Fri Feb 09, 2018 6:41 am

One Two Three Five wrote:I mean, there's people running around with the blood of elemental evil in them, like, what are outcasts supposed to have done that makes it so they're worse, and also identifiable on sight, presumably at level 2 or so?

This is unrelated I guess, it's just something I'm wondering since everyone seems to think outcasts all did something like, Doctor Doom scale
Irongron wrote:"Just going to talk about role-play a bit here, as it was myself that introduced the concept of outcasts in Arelith.

The exact reasons for it are something for the individual players to decide upon, as part of their own character's backstory, but essentially this is what it means.

This individual has a degree of notoriety among the populace, whether through actions of their own, family connections, disfigurement, or being falsely accused, their identity is wildly known and rumours about them persists to this day.

These are people nobody would want as a neighbour, and would provoke an angry reaction from local citizens should they be welcomed in any civilsed settlement. Redemption is impossible, not because their crimes are so great, but because their notoreity is so widespread, and the rumours so unpleasant. Any individual player character may choose to disbelieve or forgive an outcast, but they simply lack the capacity to convince an entire nation to share their views."

"... it is up to the players themselves to RP outcasts appropriately. Remember, this doesn't mean you can't like and/or befriend them, but that in doing so you would be breaching the conventions of society in a serious fashion. Picture some of the worst people in human history, and imagine yourself walking down the street with them in your home town".
This basically says that RP'ing yourself as not known isn't meant to be an option, and Irongron is the originator of the concept. I added some bolding and underlining for particularly relevant statements about the intention of the background as refutation to the idea that branding would encourage "metagaming."

Why the character is so widely known at level 2 is up to the outcast to portray- but they are, and I don't see why a little tag at the end of someone's description is metagaming at that point.
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Re: YMA2's Outcast Suggestion

Post by Mirw » Fri Feb 09, 2018 9:04 am

It would be the best ending post. Thanks Ael.
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Re: YMA2's Outcast Suggestion

Post by Thanatosis » Fri Feb 09, 2018 10:00 am

Aelryn illustrates a good point with his quotation, but it's not the same one he's trying to make.

The fact that an Outcast is infamously known, and playing an "unknown" Outcast is supposedly untenable is, frankly, ridiculous to an extreme and impossible to portray correctly; not for any fault of the Outcast's character, but because of everyone else.

Nobody is going to know who a level 2, fresh-off-the-boat character is, just straight up. Nobody can look at them and know that they've committed horrible crimes, and what crimes those were. If they're supposed to be wildly infamous for their monstrous deeds or whatever, why can you select this background at character generation? Should a level 2 character be able to claim all these great and terrible feats that they'd never be able to accomplish in the game itself?

Now, don't get me wrong. Outcasts have brought a lot of flavour, and a lot of interesting roleplay to the Underdark and I'd hate to see them go. Which is why forcing the "everyone knows you" background is ... frankly, silly, because not every interesting Outcast character I met was famous. And the ones that were, weren't interesting because they were famous -- though certainly it did add to the appeal, it was only a facet of their character, rather than a significant (backstory-only) chunk.

Skullport, which is basically the closest canonical analogue to Andunor that exists, has humans in it. They aren't named. They aren't famous. They're humans that live in the Underdark, and there are TONS of them. By making this absolutely bogus rule that all Outcasts must be known, and famous, you're completely obliterating a perfectly valid form of roleplay that exists in lore for no reason other than that a few folks are abusing it, intentionally or not.

The Outcast system needs attention, I'd say, but it's not for the reasons outlined by a lot of people in this thread.
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Re: YMA2's Outcast Suggestion

Post by Cybernet21 » Fri Feb 09, 2018 10:03 am

Dr. B wrote: I'm especially interested in your answer to (1). There's nothing in the definition of an "Outcast" suggesting that my character has achieved worldwide fame.
While i never said Outcasts are like Hitler,i said they are likr serial killers,mass murderers,sadistic torturers of people they kidnapped,etc...,and there are a lot of such in life that are known worldwide even if the crimes they did were in one country

Also,from the wiki:

"These are people nobody would want as a neighbour, and would provoke an angry reaction from local citizens should they be welcomed in any civilsed settlement. Redemption is impossible, not because their crimes are so great, but because their notoreity is so widespread, and the rumours so unpleasant. Any individual player character may choose to disbelieve or forgive an outcast, but they simply lack the capacity to convince an entire nation to share their views."

"... it is up to the players themselves to RP outcasts appropriately. Remember, this doesn't mean you can't like and/or befriend them, but that in doing so you would be breaching the conventions of society in a serious fashion. Picture some of the worst people in human history and imagine yourself walking down the street with them in your home town".

But take a famous serial killer like the example i gave:If he can escape authorities and be able to run to another country with a different identity and try to change his appearencete best way he can so he is not recognized imediatly (like having a beard grow and shave himself bald) that is certainly possible. I assume you get my meaning:Diguises (which would hide whatever sort of mark that is or was suggested)

The marks that were suggested never were said to tell a characters whole back story,just that they are Outcasts and at max a vague idea of what they did

EDIT:I for one also never said this is to limit Outcasts to the UD(after all they can have quarters in the wilderness) but to give more sense of danger on the surface
Last edited by Cybernet21 on Fri Feb 09, 2018 10:20 am, edited 3 times in total.
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Re: YMA2's Outcast Suggestion

Post by Red Ropes » Fri Feb 09, 2018 10:07 am

You are absolutely spot on with that Thanat. I don't get why people want this to be a thing at all other than some folks just don't like having to find out whether or not someone is their "fellow traveler", which, among the degenerate creatures of the underdark it can be absolutely certain- NO ONE IS YOUR FRIEND.

That said, the 'outcast' system, how the surface and UD interact absolutely needs to be looked at. So far everything feels unfinished and I don't mean that as a jab.
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