Warlock Feedback

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One Two Three Five
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Warlock Feedback

Post by One Two Three Five » Tue Jan 30, 2018 5:19 pm

I know. I know. But it's come up enough recently that it might as well have its own thread.

So, not sure where fiendlocks are- in my experience they seem like they're in a better spot, honestly, but I've played a few feylocks since the most recent change. And while I was excited for them being tweaked, it was underwhelming at best.

So, feylocks, in broad:
Between level 3 and level 9 (Ghostly Visage) feylocks get few worthwhile spells to keep themselves alive or kill enemies. They get some decent utility spells that might end up good later on, but it makes lowbie leveling a feylock a slog that's only mitigated with judicious UMD usage.

Flare is fine. Everyone gets flare.
Expeditious Retreat is a good utility spell, sure.
Sleep barely works at the level you get it at, and given how mono-build warlocks are you probably wont even have the melee AB to stomp what few enemies fall for it.
Mage armor is decent later for getting an extra +1 dodge, but a fiendlock can spend the money they aren't spending on summon wands/scrolls to +1 ac their gear.

Fiendlock's first summon is very good, and easily worth the feylock's spell list up till invis, I've found. (Currently having zero trouble using the summon 1 to solo Andunor sewers, bonefields, Derro, and those bugbear things next to the bonefields first level).

Later on, feylocks even out a bit, but never move too far beyond a half-decent utility mage/Magical Damage Flarespammer, due to haste being one non-self only (I get why this was done, though), and displacement being a pain to cast over and over and over. A level 30 warlock's displacement will last like, 3 minutes? 6 extended? Not worth the feat, or casting. You get more out of an II wand.

The 'standouts' are cloud of bewilderment, haste, and confusion, but the last of which comes too late to really help anything, and the fort saves on vulnerable monsters for cloud is usually too high to matter.

Summon Shadow: Broken, near as anyone can tell? Doesn't scale with illusion focus or charisma. It's a cool idea and I get the whole 'illusionary decoy' route. It's thematic and nice, but I'd suggest two things: One? Please fix this. Please. Two: Maybe drop the level you get it a little bit.

Going into late-teens to epics, feylocks continue to be underwhelming, and not just comparatively to both fiendlocks and regular mages. All of their 'good' spells deal either no or reduced blast damage, which would be fine if their good spells were worth casting on their own. And, again, while fiendlocks are tearing it up with bone devils and pit fiend generals, feylocks get... sound burst, a 2 round stun. (Max DC on a fey with every single feat as great charisma, with evo foci: 35)

Dominate person is decent but again, by the time you get it, you're moving away from 'humanoid' enemies and into outsiders, undead, etc anyway. Half-decent pvp spell if your opponent is bad, half your level, or completely unprepared.

Dirge does not in any way keep up with the tier 6 fiendlock summon. It just doesn't. It's only barely thematic, too, if you take 'sound burst makes noise' and 'there's noise-based fey' into account.

As far as capstone abilities go? Shadow Shield is yet another 'better off UMDing it' ability. It's nice to have, but scrolls are hardly rare and there's at least one UMDable armor that has casts of it.

Overall: Feylock reads as (and plays like) the edits done to it were a bit heavy-handed on the nerf side, and done in the fear that giving them anything worthwhile would send them too far over the 'OP' line, to the point that for most of their abilities, you're better off playing a real mage or a fiendlock with a set of wands and scrolls. Unlike fiendlock, they don't get much if anything that's really unique to them, and they feel like a neglected cousin to fiendlock's cool tricks.

The 'divide' appears to be that fiendlock is intended to be a sturdy ranged damage dealer with a built-in tank and some methods to punish enemies that focus the fiendlock over the fiend- Balagarns, Bestow Curse (touch range), Darkness- and the fiendlock gets there by level 3 and keeps improving those lines. Your summon gets stronger. Your ability to keep enemies away increases with things like gust of wind, fear, etc. The DCs on these are never good but balagarns is already one of the best spells on the bard list so it's no big deal.

Whereas fiendlock is supposed to be, near as I can tell, a sturdy? ranged damage dealer who trades the tank for 'trickiness' and utility, and mostly comes off as an all-over-the-place bundle of leftover bard spells with too much concern put over keeping it from being strong. It's not unplayably bad, but good golly could it use a little tweaking, as it never really gets where it seems to want to go. A few suggestions come to mind:

Feylocks have what I see as three ability 'lines':
1. Mobility/Antimobility: Expeditious retreat, haste, slow, cloud spells, holds.
2. Enchantment: Will-save, non-immune only, low low low DCs- charm (bad), dominate.
3. Illusion: Displacement, summon shadow, invis.

As far as thematics for fey-powers go, rock on. For mechanics sake.. Buff these lines a bit?
Mobility
is probably fine, even if you're overly reliant on spell-DCs on a class with a monobuild.

Enchantment: I know yall don't want feylocks being too strong, but consider trading Dirge or Shadow Shield for Dominate Monster. Hell, give it the same cooldown on death or release of dominated foe as the warlock summon 6 gets.

Illusion: Make the shadow a more proper 'shadow self' summon, maybe give it a fey-powered debuff aura or something. Something neat and individual. Bring back improved invis, even if only under the same rules as Haste. On yourself whenever, on only one other person at a time.

Miscellany:
Some of the spells on the feylock list are super duper bad. Please consider both trading some of those spells for better ones, and dropping some of the feylock list down a few levels. (Confusion is a good example).

The charm spells and sound burst at least could do with a trade-out, even if sound burst is their only extra-damage area spell. A second (third?) go-over of their spell list as it stands would help a lot.

Alternatively: Something a bit unique to feylocks, since they don't have tht built-in tank and are kind of... replaced easily with UMD or a mass-haste mage? The original warlocks had blast shapes and on-blast effects. Either one of these might be a nice, neat addition to feylocks to make them stand out and be a little more viable.

This has run on a bit. Thanks for reading if you read it.
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JediMindTrix
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Re: Warlock Feedback

Post by JediMindTrix » Tue Jan 30, 2018 5:32 pm

Displacement should have it's duration increased to turns/level for Feylocks.

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One Two Three Five
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Re: Warlock Feedback

Post by One Two Three Five » Tue Jan 30, 2018 5:49 pm

Also good! As is, an II wand's concealment will last 7 minutes, which is 1 minute more than a level 30 feylock's extended displacement. I'm serious about most of their good stuff being UMDable anyway.
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BegoneThoth
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Re: Warlock Feedback

Post by BegoneThoth » Tue Jan 30, 2018 10:27 pm

JediMindTrix wrote:Displacement should have it's duration increased to turns/level for Feylocks.
Could do haste as well, given that they can only haste themselves and one other person.

Would be nice though. Quality of life.
\

Xuuldar
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Re: Warlock Feedback

Post by Xuuldar » Wed Jan 31, 2018 1:17 am

Postby One Two Three Five » Tue Jan 30, 2018 5:19 pm

...words...
I pretty much agree with you 100%. Of all the spells I only use a couple. Sleep and charms aren't worth casting. Confusion isn't worth it by the time you get it. And I generally just use Imp Invis and breech wands rather than Displacement and the dispels. Sound burst is meh. I rarely use slow as all it seems to do most of the time is make the monsters very angry with me after half of them make the save.

The giants are the only place where a feylock is really fun as their saves aren't great. Many other places are downright painful due to high saves or outright immunities. Through the low and mid levels the instrument of the winds is the only thing that makes it decent but since you are likely to not waste feats for conjuration, elemental swarm loses it's umph in the higher levels.

I wish the shadow summons would get fixed/buffed. I get the reasoning behind the change to haste but Imp invis as an upgrade to displacement later in levels would not be too OP with the ease of using it from wands. Dominate person can be fun but its so bugging and unmanageable that it's really not worth it most of the time.

One other thing that really hurts the Feylock is the damage types. Getting neither fire or acid really hurts and is one way the fiend has it made. I can't speak to anything PVP related so maybe its good in PVP, but it ranges from barely passable to downright horrible in PVE.

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One Two Three Five
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Re: Warlock Feedback

Post by One Two Three Five » Wed Jan 31, 2018 3:48 am

Not getting fire and acid is really rough. Especially in the underdark, with the giant myconid-shaped XP piles being vulnerable to fire.
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TimeAdept
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Re: Warlock Feedback

Post by TimeAdept » Wed Jan 31, 2018 5:18 am

I've been hemming and hawing all day as to if I should reply because popular opinion seems to be that Feylock is really bad. And if people think Feylock is really bad, then it will get buffed, and I'll benefit from that. But that'd be disingenuous of me, because I think the feedback here and the feedback I've heard is pretty much wrong on all counts, save for a few points I'll elaborate on in my post. This is going to be a really long dissertation of my time playing a Feylock, my general feelings on it and various builds, and more.

I've played a Feylock on the DL to about level 23 now, enough to experience the core levelling content on the character, and to have all the invocations that are going to matter (greater dispel and Dirge are not going to change anything drastic about this PC). The class has a difficult time soloing, without a doubt, and is very group focused, support focused, and "button pressing" focused, unlike Fiendlock which is a solo machine, buff and go. But in that group, it shines beyond shining, and has several specific synergies both with the class itself and with other classes that make it a PvE and PvP slaying machine and would threaten to do so even more with buffs that are likely not deserved for the class. Bugfixes: Yes. Straight buffs? No.

First: Blast types. Yes, not getting fire or acid is sort of a pain in the Snuggybear - but positive is the best damage type to spam next to magic,, cold gets you massive damage in RDI, and Electric gets you extra damage in Blackfin. Cold and Electric also get you past the massive damage immunities of Elemental Monoliths, a build which is a POWERHOUSE in PvP at the moment, inflicting 100% bonus damage. Your damage on the average build is going to be 13d6+13 to 15d6+15 2x a round because you're permahasted (WITHOUT Quicken Spell - more on this later). That averages 58.5 x2 to 67.5 x2 dmg a round. It's not WM Kensai crits, but it's also full elemental damage on a touch attack, and this damage often comes with riders like Slow, Confusion, Tasha's, Soundburst, and MIND FOG.

The Levelling Experience: Low levels sucks Snuggybear, your blast is going to miss a ton, Sleep's only going to get maybe one thing a spawn, and you're basically spamming Mage Armor and Cure Light Wounds at things. It's Cure Light, not Cure Minor, by the way. But no part is going to turn down unlimited healing and unlimited Mage Armor, and Sleep will still help vs spawns. Tasha's would be OK but gets that nasty -4 Dc vs anything not your race. Can we get that removed? It's stupid. And Blast isn't, I mean, it's not NOTHING, it's just not very good right now.

Displacement puts you online. Displacement is 50% conceal that is not purgeable by Invis Purge. Read my words very explicitly here. Giving back Imp Invis and taking away Invis + Displacement combo would objectively be a huge nerf to Feylock. Displacement is better than Imp Invis in every way, and if you want invis, you slap down invis and go. When you want concealment, the last thing you want is every cleric and their mother dispelling it. This concealment lets you do content beyond your paygrade. It only gets better from here.

Cloud of Bewilderment and Hold Person let you get in on the action directly. Cloud is not party friendly, but it's a poison related fort save, and there's a lot of ways to help mitigate that for your party, including using Elemental summons, Ironguts, or just travelling with beefy fort save people, including spamming your free Resistance cantrip on them. It's a Fort Save when many of your abilities are Will Specific, so it's always got a little niche. It's not a big one, it's use drops off rpetty rapidly, but while it's good, it's good. Hold Person is good for when you get it - it means FoD becomes a joke. Spam that out on the Malaries, spam it out on Orc, spam it out on anything humanoid - you'd be surprised just how low will saves tend to be. And besides, it's infinite and still does damage.

Level 12. You just got Haste and Slow. You are a god among men. Your power level just quadrupled and you are a party's best friend. Your APM skyrockets as you are now capable of upkeeping Displacement, Haste, Mage Armor, on every person in your party that needs it while still using Slow and Hold Persons and the occasional Cloud. If you are not casting every second of an encounter, you are failing as a Feylock. Get a guard, turn on Defensive Casting, and stand next to them. Never stop casting, unless it's to cast Invis to get to a better casting spot. Slow means every single spawn not immune to it just dropped o 1 or 2 attacks a round. Not -1 attack. One attack, period. Those 5 attack archers? Pew. Goodbye. 2 attacks, one rapid shot one normal. Dual weilding Black Orcs? 2 attacks. It's also -2 AC. It's such a decrease in incoming DPs that combined with Displacement, your tanks wil lbe using essentially 0 resources. It's Party Friendly. It's a Will Save, and like everything else in yuor arsenal, it's ground targettable to hide
your eyes, and it's infinite. Use it.

Level 13. You just got Mind Fog. Your build is online for the rest of the character's existence. Your only otheer major milestones are Hold Monster, Confusion and Greater Dispel. Mindfog is essentially the sole reason why Feylock exists and functions, and taking it away would break it as a viable archetype. This spell singlehandedly defines your combat rotation. It dazes, it lowers Will Saves vs mind affecting (but also vs Slow for some reason?), and does so even if the target saves, netting you anywhere from -2 to -12 (or -1 to -6) will saves on your targets giving you effective multiples of Epic Spell Foci in all your spells. Also it's AoE, Party Friendly, does FULL ELDRITCH DAMAGE, and it, hello, infinite casting. This is your opener in every single combat for the rest of your character's life that doesn't involve Hasting first. Your combat rotation right now is as follows: Mindfog, Slow, (1x Hold Monster for every mob.), Eldritch Blast whatever's left with spell of your choice. You will obliterate everything, and your party will do so effortlessly.

Levelling here is speedy and fruitful, your spell durations are at a point where upkeeping Haste and Displacement is no longer a pain in the Snuggybear, and your playstyle really doesn't change until you get Confusion. Confusion now subs into your rotation instead of Slow. It is on you to decide if Slow or Confusion is better, based on your spawns and situation. Generally: Confusion is going to be better because for most every Feylock, you'll have Enchantment Focus but not Transmutation Focus. Things immune to Mind Affecting, however, are not necessarily immune to Slow, still making it a valuable tool in your arsenal. Confusion is, like Slow and Mindfog, Party Friendly, AoE, Infinite, Full Eldritch Damage. By now your blasts will essentially never miss except on a 1. Ground Target any spell you need to never fail, and you won't need to make the touch attack rider. Mindfog into Hold Monster continues to be an effective way to cripple any spawns. Sound Burst is a toy. It's not party friendly, it's only level 2, Hold Monster does what you want it to and better, as does Slow, Confusion, and Mindfog. But it looks cool to spam and gives full Eldritch Damage so hey ho why not.

Once you are into High Epic and are doing things like Spirits, Hell, and the Abyss, and RDI, your process has to change. Spirits are going to be awful for you if you're not an Underdark Feylock, as the Faerzress will make your life RNG hell. If you're an Underdark Feylock, though, Mindfog into Slow is effective and neuters the Spirits and Wights effectively and cleanly. Upkeep Haste and Displacement and you can do this content in pairs carefully at level 19 on through to level 30 if you need to, only getting easier as you level up. Red Dragon Island falls apart to Mindfog, Slow, Confusion, Hold Monster, and Cold Eldritch Blasts. Blackfin falls apart to the same and Lightning. Hell and the Abyss have large amounts of creatures immune to slow, paralysis, or mind affecting, and often combinations of various immunities. It will be on you to notice which mobs are immune to what. Mindfog into Slow and Mindfog into Confusion generally remains a powerful choice - Hold Monster loses its lustre here, and Magic and Positive blasts remain powerful spamming tools for creatures with otherwise high AC.

At this point your build is feature complete. You have everything, you're level 30, and you're a group focused PvE powerhouse and a sleeper powerhouse in PvP that if unrespected will almost singlehandled turn the tide of a 12 v 10 battle in favor of the side that had 4 of its people instantly die to Weirds and Wails. Do not ignore the guy spamming Mindfog, Slow, and Hold Monster. He is the one making you die. It's not the guy with the scimitar. "Oh, but Clarity!" You're a UMD class, breach it off, Mords it off, it's on CD. You have infinite max CL Greater Dispel with Greater Abjuration. Just get rid of it. Your dispels are doing damage while you do it. Clarity and Mindblank is all that stops you. Mindfog. Slow. Confusion. Hold Monster. If any single one of the latter three spells hit, you win the fight. If they -pray, hit them with it again, because they're likely still in the mindfog. You have infinity spells. Cast them. A B C. Always Be Casting. Always Be Casting. Always. Be. Casting.

~~~

Build Commentary:

As far as I'm concerned there are only two ways to build Feylock. 30 Warlock or 27 Warlock/ 3 Blackguard. The only reason to do 30 Warlock is if you intend to sacrifice EDR3 and go deep in Charisma, as the lack of feats needed for EDR3 and BG allows you to pick up 3 greater spell foci (Transmutation, Abjuration, Enchantment. There's no reason to pick Evocation unless you really want better Dirge and Sound Burst.). It's fun if you really want to squeak out the extra DC to your spells, and you pick up self teleport, but you're really sacrificing a lot of your survival to do so, and what you're gaining is roughly +3 to spell DCs and +4 DC to Slow (+7 with the cha bonus). That's potent, but with BG....

....You get anywhere from +9 to +11 to your saves, Divine Shield for the same thing to your AC on demand, and Heavy Armor Proficiency. You do not need dex on any Warlock. Throw it in the trash, then take advantage of your dumpster Dex by wearing Templare Plate for an easy +3 Cha while only having 1 AC less than Adamantine Plate. Then use the Fencing Buckler for only 1 AC less (but 40 lbs less) than Addy Shield, or just use an Addy Shield because you don't care about weight, or get the weight reduced. This works because....

.... You don't need Quicken Spell. The Fiendlock needs Quicken Spell. As a Feylock, you are Permhasted whenever you want whenever you need. This means your open metamagic slot on your build goes to Still Spell. The only spells you cant Still are going to be Energy Buffer and Dirge. You do not care. With Fencing Buckler and Templar Plate you will have 20% spell failure. Who cares, Dirge and Energy Buffer are mostly pre fight PvE things anyways, and Buffer lasts forever, jsut cast it before when you need it, if it fails, cast it again, because, and I can't say this enough, you have literally infinite spells. You also have EDR3, and can combine it with the DR the class gives you and the DR from feats to make itself very very tanky. On top of this you get some free resistances to cold and elec. Not as useful as Fire and Acid, admittedly, but it's still one half of SoV and it helps in Auril-land.

The Best Feylock IMO split the CHA/CON difference vs going full con like Fiendlock or going Full CHA like th 30 Feylock, and goes for roughly 21-22 CON and 20-22 CHA. This gets you a good balance of Divine Shield AC that won't overcap when combined with Haste, Mage Armor, Boots, and also gives you a solid bump to your flagging Fort saves, which, combined with full Spellcraft and maybe some rune gear, gives you all you need to stay tuff in the face of danger. This keeps your DCs respectable, with most in the ~30 range on a Will Save. Is it spectacular? No, but it's infinite, and remember, Mind Fog is often giving us anywhere from 3-8 effective bonus to that DC just for casting it in the general vicinity of the Bad Dudes. You only need to land one to win. Maybe two. Zap zap zap. You have full UMD on top of this, with all wands, scrolls, and everything available to you to make full use of as well.

~~~~

So that's that. My dissertation on Feylock. I don't think the class needs buffs. I think it's a sleeper powerhouse waiting for someone to come out and wreck havoc with it. It hyper-punishes bad play and is capable of punishing good play. It gets full tumble AC in heavy armor with self buffing Divine Shield capability. Is it S tier? No. I think it is solid A tier. Very powerful, and capable of being built on a myriad of races that can enhance those bonuses.

I do not think Feylock should get buffed. I will go over a bullet point list of my thoughts from this topic, though. If you skip the entire post, please read this list.

- Giving back Imp Invis is a nerf. Displacement and Invis should stay and remain separate. Purge-Immune 50% displacement is a huge deal and a huge niche for the Feylock.
-Speaking about Feylock without talking about Mind Fog tells me you are not playing the class to its full potential. The entire class hinges around mind fog, and to change or nerf or buff mindfog is to directly affect Feylock in the biggest way possible.
-Changing Haste and Displacement to turns/level isn't QoL, because the less time you spend buffing the more time you spend spamming. It also makes one specific FOIG benefit very very powerful. I also just think it's inconsistent for one subpath of one path of one class to have two spells work different for it.
-Confusion is absolutely worth it when you get it and remains worth it to level 30. AoE CC party friendly full eldritch damage wins fights PvE and PvP on its own.
-Sleep is never good past like level 5. Agreed. The Charms are never good. Agreed. If the spell list is to change, a better subsuming of previous useless spells when bigger tier spells come in would be appreciated. i.e. change out Hold Person when you get Hold Monster. Change out Charm Person when you get Charm Monster. I would say the same for Cure Light Wounds but feel the class would actually be overpowered if it could spam anything better than 6-13 2x a round. God forbid it got Cure Serious or Cure Critical.
-Monsters will aggro you very quickly when you cast. Guard. Stand by guard. Turn on Defensive Casting. Congrats, you're fine. Treat it just like you would a rogue, an archer, or similar. You are Ranged Control / DPS that just also happens to be very very tanky if things don't go precisely your way.
-This is a general commentary, more than specifically on Feylocks. I think races and classes that give 5/- vs energy built in should instead receive the Energy Resistance feats for those elements - it would allow PCs to synergize gear for extra resistance, rather than the property taking the place of gear. It makes no sense that a Fiendlock can't wear a fire resistance ring to become more resistant to fire, for example. Alternately, follow the path Tiefling, Aasimar, ad the Orcs and Orogs seem to have taken, and make it a percentage immunity instead, allowing it to stack with the elemental damage resistance gift, items, and Energy Buffer, and so on.
-The shadow summons are useless, when they should be fun gimmick toys. No comments on buffing or changing, but right now they're actually broken. Don't recommend taking Illusion Focus even if they're fixed, though, definitely not worth it.
-Shadow Shield as a capstone is enticing, but ultimately lackluster. I have also heard it's bugged. Great to have built in - or would be, but you're a full UMD class, just grab it when you need it. Don't know what else I'd add in though. Taking it would be tempting except for the fact that you're giving up the BG dip, and Shadow Shield just isn't worth losing the proficiencies, and +10ish saves and +10ish AC.
-Going off the above: any changes to Feylock, or Warlock in general, needs to address the fact that it's incredibly easy to take a 3 level dump of BG and have instant proficiencies and Divine Shield. Without keeping this in mind, you're just shoving power at an archetype that's already powerful in NWN: The CHA synergy character.
-Finally: Feylock is ridiculously fun to play, and I suspect Fiendlock is too. I really hope Feylock doesn't get nerfed as a result of all this, but as much as I'd enjoy stomping about, I really don't think it needs a massive buff, either.

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flower
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Re: Warlock Feedback

Post by flower » Wed Jan 31, 2018 10:50 am

Displacement cannot be removed by puirge invisible. That is a huge advantage especially in many dungeons where npcs část purge as first spell.

Griefmaker
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Re: Warlock Feedback

Post by Griefmaker » Wed Jan 31, 2018 4:25 pm

TimeAdept pretty much nailed exactly what I have been thinking about the fey warlock all this time too.

Too many people think only "raw character power" = powerful. Some of the most effective and powerful characters (to the point people sent tells saying that the character was too OP...which is ironic in more ways than I care to describe) I have ever played were straight up debuffers/supporters for exactly the reasons TimeAdept brought up.

Xuuldar
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Re: Warlock Feedback

Post by Xuuldar » Wed Jan 31, 2018 7:43 pm

Don't get me wrong, I don't think they need some huge buff, I think they need Shadows actually fixed and some small tweaks.

You make it sound amazing but in practice I find my experience to fall well short. I fully admit that it may be a build issue, I didn't get a relevel after the nerf and it's not quite optimized as it could be, but it's close.

Mind fog is an amazing spell sometimes, and a really good spell the rest of the time depending on what you are fighting. Overall I would say its the best spell a feylock has. Slow would be great if you could could actually get things slowed with it, but in practice my experience has been that you cast it on a group of monsters and most of them are unaffected and then you run around in circles trying not to die. Displacement + invis are certainly powerful, unfortunately they are also frustrating to have to constantly chase around your party members reapplying them. Hold monster, another awesome spell...when it works. But depending on what you are fighting, it often is just better to spam flare and try to kill it fast than endlessly spam hold monster for no effect.

I have no clue what the surface is like but in the UD, Lizardmen, Grimloks, and giants are all very fun. I find driders annoying with SR and saves, Minigons outside the plant are ok as you can usually get slow to stick on them but they are immune to most of your good stuff. Slime Temple and Iceroads, you really hurt without fire or acid, Duergar straight up suck, and Abyss, hell, ghosts all frustrating and painful.

Of the classes I have played, the feylock can certainly be fun at times and in certain places, but I find it falls far behind Pure Druid, Totem Druid, Fiendlock, cleric, wizard, barb, WM (and I won't even mention spellsword since everything falls behind that). It's about on par with my FS/BG. Far better at solo then the TF but TF is way better in a group. Feylock is better at the lower/mid into epics than my DD and monk. Don't get me wrong, I love the idea of and to a degree love my feylock but I think the nerfs were a bit heavy handed and some tweaks would be good as it's not nearly as awesome in practice as you portray it. I honestly can't think of a single level or dungeon where a fiendlock would not be far better. Again, maybe it's just me or my build that has my experience so much worse, but I agree with the OP completely. And to say "get someone to guard you" isn't really a great argument as I don't think there is a class in the entire game that can't be awesome when they have someone standing their guarding them.

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One Two Three Five
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Re: Warlock Feedback

Post by One Two Three Five » Thu Feb 01, 2018 4:15 pm

I'm not a big fan of the True Flame Defense- 'Just get someone to guard you, all the time,' because that can make almost anything seem better than it is due to the nature of being partied up. Guard doesn't, and shouldn't, excuse class design and bug issues.

As for the 'play piano constantly and you're good' argument: Fiendlocks can do it too, often with better spells like balagarn's, a personal tank (One of which regens), and have spell types that aren't almost entirely restricted to mind spells, which a huge number of enemies (and a good amount of pcs) are either outright immune to or will only fail on a one regardless of DC.

Honestly, I wonder how 'guard and classing into BG is OP' should keep feylocks in their overnerfed state, but not require fiendlock nerfs by the same logic?

I'm not saying buff them to all hell, I'm saying there's some broken bits, a hampering over-focus on enchantment/mind spells, and a playstyle you'd be better off using a fiendlock, or indeed a -guarded IGMS spamming trueflamer for, on a class that'll get its head cut off by a good number of PCs. Also, adding imp invis doesn't mean removing displacement. The old ones got both. II is just an easier ask for the sake of not wasting player time. Though, the suggestion to just make warlock displacement turns per level serves the exact same purpose.

A spell list review, some small tweaks, or maybe a return of something like the original elemental effects considering spellswords get something similar/stronger than 2/round single target would be. Lightning chains, positive does a small heal to nearby allies, etc etc.
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ForgottenBhaal
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Re: Warlock Feedback

Post by ForgottenBhaal » Thu Feb 01, 2018 4:20 pm

I'd honestly think that it would just be fun to return the alternate blast-shapes to them. And hideous blow. To open up some variety, alongside with some small tweaks, and touches.

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BegoneThoth
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Re: Warlock Feedback

Post by BegoneThoth » Thu Feb 01, 2018 4:55 pm

It's a stellar class if you look at it from a Dota standpoint; a moderate damage, high utility, durable support. Nothing else really does that besides the Bard tree.

And a Dota standpoint tends to be how I look at design/balance, because as far as I'm concerned that game solved problems a decade ago that others seem to struggle with forever.
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Re: Warlock Feedback

Post by RedGiant » Thu Feb 01, 2018 6:08 pm

I agree in full with the original OP, especially +++ pleading for a sensible return of dominate monster.
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Re: Warlock Feedback

Post by Conversations With Your Car Alarm » Thu Feb 01, 2018 9:12 pm

BegoneThoth wrote: Dota
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ForgottenBhaal
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Re: Warlock Feedback

Post by ForgottenBhaal » Thu Feb 08, 2018 11:07 pm

I'd honestly mostly just like to see some more versatility added to Warlock.

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Iceborn
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Re: Warlock Feedback

Post by Iceborn » Thu Feb 08, 2018 11:16 pm

ForgottenBhaal wrote:I'd honestly mostly just like to see some more versatility added to Warlock.
While I only played a warlock once, and only briefly, it was enough to sum it up with what I've been seeing for as long as I've been playing in Arelith.

There is only one way to play a warlock, one way to build them.
Thematically, warlocks are the epitome of cool. Mechanically, they are the Recommend button of Arelith. You can justify that they are great for new players (except that the roleplay of a warlock is not particularly forgiving for new players), and you can say that there's enough flexibility in the option to build them spectacularly weak or try to make use of their considerable questionable range of abilities.

The main class warlock (we are ignoring three-level dips, obs) is not something that should still exist in our game, when we consider that every other class enjoys of a great degree of personality within itself. The warlock sins obnoxiously loudly of being a very stubborn, very defined square box that functions very much like a trap that makes the original kensai look like a favorable path to take.

I would push to have it reviewed, and completely overhauled, or some array of abilities added that allows some flexibility in those that want to play a warlock but don't want to look like copy-pasted clones of each other warlock.
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Re: Warlock Feedback

Post by Miskol » Fri Feb 09, 2018 1:28 am

Warlocks currently:

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RedGiant
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Re: Warlock Feedback

Post by RedGiant » Fri Feb 09, 2018 4:40 am

Hey, I thought mine was totally original and different!

(...but its the blue one.)

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Re: Warlock Feedback

Post by telmarael » Sun Mar 18, 2018 7:52 pm

To a post above on how good feylocks actually are - nothing based on mind-affecting spells is outright good... Even if it's "good" good, gimping yourself in a world where everyone strives for a most viable build is outright a suicide... And while my mind-affecting spell-based mage is crowling up to early epics, I already start noticing that they only work on the most stupidly straightforward melee creeps with zero will saves, where as casting NPCs give you more and more and more trouble with each level taken. And yes, mindfog doesn't really do much when 2\3 of the spawn are some pre-buffed clerics hurling meteors on you (although it's just around lvl17). But none of the coments are going to matter, as it was explicitly stated by the administration that they aren't going to change anything about core paths and whatsoever. So, I think it's time to roll after 20 :D

edit: judging by how long ago changes were made, and nothing was restored, there's no chance to get anything (necromancybuffswhen?) :lol:

edit2: 1. make shades guard you like SD ones do (why not?) Outright op, of course :p
2. The only thing there needs to be done is revising the spell list a bit, as pointed out by TimeAdept above. I'll post the thing in Suggestions subforum when it's open again.
And now, if you allow me to make a suggestion:
Charm person ---> Protection from alignment
Sleep ---> Lesser Dispell (Cause why not?)
Cloud of bewilderment ---> Confusion. allows the build to come online a lot faster in leveling, and serves as an answer to fiendlock summons.
Summon shadow ---> dominate person
Sound burst ---> silence
lvl20 - magic circle against alignment
Dirge ---> wounding whispers (that would actually be something unique for feylock, compared to the other subpath, along with mindfog)
Shadow shield ---> mass haste. Why? Because 3lvl BG dip is too aluring, giving many, very very many benifits at a negligible cost. That would give a decent enough reason to consider going feylock 30
Worth noticing that all the spells are from bard's initial spellbook - no need tinkering too much
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Re: Warlock Feedback

Post by susitsu » Sun Mar 18, 2018 11:00 pm

On Displacement alone: It's still just one aspect of a pointlessly tedious nightmare of spells a feylock has to rotate through. just give the imp invis back, literally so what if displacement can't be purged

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Re: Warlock Feedback

Post by TimeAdept » Sun Mar 18, 2018 11:26 pm

Displacement not being purgable is a huge Snuggle a Bugbear deal, i don't know what content you do but invis purge is everywhere, and no matter how much you dislike putting displacement on people you'd be doing it MORe with imp invis as it gets torn off constantly

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susitsu
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Re: Warlock Feedback

Post by susitsu » Sun Mar 18, 2018 11:46 pm

When you only encounter an invis purge every ten minutes? No. (OR I GUESS TWICE BETWEEN RANDO CRINTIS AND THE FIRST SPIRIT BOSS)

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Re: Warlock Feedback

Post by BegoneThoth » Sun Mar 18, 2018 11:56 pm

People like to cast it.
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susitsu
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Re: Warlock Feedback

Post by susitsu » Mon Mar 19, 2018 12:22 am

I'm not sure how you people are misunderstanding that this is just a matter of convenience. And empowering for the feylock, actually. The usability of imp invis over concealment is-yeah, superior. Tactics are all in the moment.

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