Spellswords are too strong.

[Aelryn Bloodmoon]

I'm playing a 27/3, and I feel that Lightning imbue is just a little too good at high level room clearing, not because of its damage, but because of its reliability due to high DC, even with aggressive multiclassing.

Going off of what Hunter said, I think INT should pump DCs instead of damage.

These two ideas seem mutually exclusive to me.

Yeah, no.

I'd rather shoot myself in each foot twice than go around constantly spamming an inv wand.

I understand what you're saying, but invis wands are cheap, and a lack of willingness on one player's part does not make an effective counterargument to the viability of the tactic, or to the fact that everyone else can and probably will use it.

What wizardly things does SS give up in exchange for all the melee power? Summoning, 1 school and epic spells aside from EMA?

I never made one because just looking at that made it obvious there's nerf hammer size of a house coming. It's almost full mage that also hits like a truck with a weapon lol

This has been my overall assessment of the class from observation, and is the reason I didn't go out with my shelved 23 wizard looking for a path NPC.

[The Salt Elemental]

The answer to this is- don't let them ward. Just like a paladin or a cleric. Strong when warded, feeble when no wards. I actually enjoy a melee class with the potential to be more potent than a weapon master.

I, personally, think it should stay the same.

[flower]

The answer to this is- don't let them ward. Just like a paladin or a cleric. Strong when warded, feeble when no wards. I actually enjoy a melee class with the potential to be more potent than a weapon master.

I, personally, think it should stay the same.

How are we supposed to achieve that, when wards are often lasting turns per level or hours per level?

[The Salt Elemental]

The answer to this is- don't let them ward. Just like a paladin or a cleric. Strong when warded, feeble when no wards. I actually enjoy a melee class with the potential to be more potent than a weapon master.

I, personally, think it should stay the same.

How are we supposed to achieve that, when wards are often lasting turns per level or hours per level?

Well if you are faced with a spellsword, you could do a number of things. Run away until short timed wards ware off, kite them with haste, mordekainen them using umd or if you're a castor, or come back when they aren't buffed. Not everyone walks around prepared for battle 24/7. If said spellsword isn't level 30 they do have weaknesses you can exploit just as any class.

The point is that there are balances to this class. There /are/ ways to defeat it. You just have to wait for them. Kinda like how if you wanted to beat a dragonshaper (old dragon shaper) you needed to be either a wizard with evo, a weapon master with a TON of true strike potions, or catch them unshifted or unwarded. Just gotta choose your battles carefully. I've had people of this class kick my butt and I've kicked people of this class's butts vice versa. It's all about strategy and timing.

[PinataPlethora]

These two ideas seem mutually exclusive to me.

I'm not sure I follow. If you drop the DCs to something more reasonable, remove INT damage, and then require INT to bring the DCs back up to where they're reliable, you force players to choose between damage and spell effects. Less overall power, more variety of play styles.

[Nulstarius]

I can barely believe how strong this class is, sick dam, good ab, crazy ac, access to epic mage armor, wiz bonus feats, and they can still do timestop and spam mords and missile storms, and they progress in caster lvls as a normal mage, not even every second lvl as palemaster.

I always saw a spellsword as a compromise between fighter and mage, not as sometihng that got all the perks nearly and none of the flaws.

They shouldn't even be able to take epic mage armor. Or it should be a boon you could take at 28 for the pure none multiclassed ones. But essentially, epic magic requires the kind of studies you are never going to complete if you spend most your time training with your sword or stick.

[ForgottenBhaal]

I can barely believe how strong this class is, sick dam, good ab, crazy ac, access to epic mage armor, wiz bonus feats, and they can still do timestop and spam mords and missile storms, and they progress in caster lvls as a normal mage, not even every second lvl as palemaster.

I always saw a spellsword as a compromise between fighter and mage, not as sometihng that got all the perks nearly and none of the flaws.

They shouldn't even be able to take epic mage armor. Or it should be a boon you could take at 28 for the pure none multiclassed ones. But essentially, epic magic requires the kind of studies you are never going to complete if you spend most your time training with your sword or stick.

^ What he said. Its ridicilous as its is. Its like the god damned mary sue guy from the movie underworld. "Both fighter, and wizard. None of the weaknesses."

[Freyason]

Rogue too since they can get fairy

[Hunter548]

They're getting looked at guys. Calm down, stop panicking. This is all stuff the devs already know about.

[BegoneThoth]

I believe the suggest dev nerf was to make spellsword imbues proc only once per flurry, but I don't know if this means the spellsword double imbue can each proc once per flurry, either way it will result in a dramatic decrease in d12's rolled per round.

I hope the nerf is bigger however I don't think its nearly far enough in its own.

[Sab1]

The answer to this is- don't let them ward. Just like a paladin or a cleric. Strong when warded, feeble when no wards. I actually enjoy a melee class with the potential to be more potent than a weapon master.

I, personally, think it should stay the same.

How are we supposed to achieve that, when wards are often lasting turns per level or hours per level?

Well if you are faced with a spellsword, you could do a number of things. Run away until short timed wards ware off, kite them with haste, mordekainen them using umd or if you're a castor, or come back when they aren't buffed. Not everyone walks around prepared for battle 24/7. If said spellsword isn't level 30 they do have weaknesses you can exploit just as any class.

The point is that there are balances to this class. There /are/ ways to defeat it. You just have to wait for them. Kinda like how if you wanted to beat a dragonshaper (old dragon shaper) you needed to be either a wizard with evo, a weapon master with a TON of true strike potions, or catch them unshifted or unwarded. Just gotta choose your battles carefully. I've had people of this class kick my butt and I've kicked people of this class's butts vice versa. It's all about strategy and timing.

You are looking at this as just a pvp thing. In pve they are a soloing machine.

[Cortex]

spellswords are dps tank healer nuke all at the same time

[Nitro]

spellswords are dps tank healer nuke all at the same time

Healer would imply they could heal others. More like sustain-tanks, DPS and nukers with hefty utility.

[Cortex]

they heal in the way they tank and kill everything before they can hurt you, pre-emptive healing

[Iceborn]

Legendary as they may be, it takes very little to push the class from overpowered to trash bin.

The class does need a nerf, nearly everybody will agree there, but it's not like they don't have the weakness of being nearly completely dependent to their magic to begin with, and with the dispel buff that pushes them to a less stable situation.

Some of the damage can be trimmed down. The DCs can be regulated. Capping the imbues to only trigger once/round is an option, though that would completely screw my character, and any other dual wielder. I'd rather the imbues to be more destabilizing and less damage-efficient.

[Barradoor]

Pls don't nerf my sparkly weapon master

[One Two Three Five]

I think the idea was per flurry, which would cap it to thrice per round regardless of how many attacks you have- I assume to negate the whole 10 APR kamaspam thing.

[Iceborn]

I think the idea was per flurry, which would cap it to thrice per round regardless of how many attacks you have- I assume to negate the whole 10 APR kamaspam thing.

That would still be a direct nerf to non-kama dualwielers.
But yeah. I haven't seen the 10 APR kamaspam IG, but that is something that probably works too well.

[Cortex]

Dual wield for the most part works only because spellsword is really good, and it's a worse way to build it. Kama monk being the exception.

[Kirito]

Legendary as they may be, it takes very little to push the class from overpowered to trash bin.

The class does need a nerf, nearly everybody will agree there, but it's not like they don't have the weakness of being nearly completely dependent to their magic to begin with, and with the dispel buff that pushes them to a less stable situation.

Some of the damage can be trimmed down. The DCs can be regulated. Capping the imbues to only trigger once/round is an option, though that would completely screw my character, and any other dual wielder. I'd rather the imbues to be more destabilizing and less damage-efficient.

This is pretty much the stance i'm sitting on.

I'm not going to make 6 minor changes and turn the class from a bit too good to trash in one move. Changes will be slow and measured.

All of the things highlighted are on our radar for potential change. There is one however that I will expand on a little more.

DCs, this is a very difficult one to tune, mostly because you have to balance between monsters and players. There can be a big difference between the two, especially if you start taking spellcraft into consideration.

Also a big difference in monster DCs some areas are very easy using a specific imbue because the corresponding save is trash. Same imbue in another area is weak because that save is much better for those critters.

The DCs must also be appropriate throughout the characters progression, so care needs to be taken not to make it too good/bad at the start just to be ok at the end. (plus taking into account different builds).

[Kirito]

All of this said... I'm currently snowed under with work (quite literally as i might be going to North Norway with no notice imminently) So although changes will happen... it's gonna be awhile

[mourisson1]

"Both fighter, and wizard. None of the weaknesses."

I would just point out few things that come to my mind.

Compared to wizard:

-Spellswords probably wont max int, and wont take full +12 int gear, which makes them have lower DCs and fewer slots.
- Spellswords should take some melee combat skills, which means they wont take as many ESF as wizard would, lowering their DC again.
- Spellswords lose all epic spells except EMA. (And...funny...you lose 1 AC compared to wizard probably, coz you cant stack MA with EMA? I'm not sure about that, as i dont have that lvl, so if someone would confirm it that would be great.)
- Spellswords dont have summons to do everything for them, which still means they have a bit more risky aproach, then staying back and watching your summon just go through everything.
- Spellswords dont have ESF features like -scry etc.
- Spellswords have to chose one school they wont use, and honestly, there are usefull spells in EVERY school. (Of course you will pick the one with fewer spells, but still you have to pick one, wizards doesnt have to)
- Spellswords possibly need to go 23/4/3 (for 4APR and Tumble AC). which makes them easily dispellable by other wizards. (Wizard dispell roll with ESF Abj. and 27/3 build = 46 possible roll against spellsword being at...let's count AD: Abj in....37.)


Compared to fighters:
- Way less feats.
- Worse BAB.
- Doesnt have Spec.
- Fewer HP.


Also someone was writing that they get AC from int...which they do, but only as a deflection, and if they have offhand free. To a max bonus of...6...but 23/4/3 is on...4...which is 2 AC less then adamantine tower shield. That's nothing that fighters couldnt get, they can...even better. Only advantage is spellsword can cast while having this AC, that's all.

So counting everything in, i personally think there is a need to nerf Imbues, as others said as well, probably to 3/round. But taking away spell slots...lowering their CL...and all those things... imo it's just a highway to hell for spellswords, not an actual reasonable nerf.

[Tarkus the dog]

all i ask is that u don't deal with them the same way you dealt with warlocks

[Lorkas]

Compared to fighters:
- Way less feats.
- Worse BAB.
- Doesnt have Spec.
- Fewer HP.

Don't forget:
- better damage
- better AC
- working vampiric regen
- better saves vs spells
- damage shields and damage reduction
- not susceptible to taunt
- 9 levels worth of arcane spells, many of which don't care at all about your INT as long as you have enough to cast them

[flower]

Kirito saves and DC of imbues are irellevant when you are forced to roll it each time you get hit. Even if you fail on 1 it happens and then effect of imbues can be deciding (and dispel with no save? Ouch)