Spellswords are too strong.

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Griefmaker
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Re: Spellswords are too strong.

Post by Griefmaker » Tue Jan 30, 2018 4:45 pm

I have always thought the spellsword class is a great one and a ton of fun which I have played about on with three different characters as I tried different aspects of its game play. I can see where some are thinking it is overpowered. It does have its weaknesses, but people will always focus on its strengths, since envy is a stronger emotion than compassion and sympathy. But I do think it could use a few big tweaks too. My suggestions are as follows (not a complete set, but some thoughts to offer better balance):

-Bump the imbue damage down. A lot. And make it dependent on total spellsword levels. Add one imbue every 10 spellsword levels, starting with 1 imbue at level 1. This means there will be 3 potential imbues at character level 21. Drop the starting DC of imbues by 5 and otherwise progress from there.

-Level 1: One imbue which does 1 damage. Scale up to level 10 with 1d4 damage.
-Level 11: Two imbues, one which still does 1d4, the other 1 damage. Scale up to level 20 with two 1d4 damage.
-Level 21: Three imbues, all three doing 1d4 damage each. So at level 21, a spellsword might add an additional 3d4 damage to their attack (instead of guaranteed damage each hit).

-Imbue damage will only activate if the attacked creature fails its save. And yes, this is a huge nerf as compared to having it added to each strike and additional affects if the save is failed. But by allowing more imbues, it is possible to target multiple saves, so this should ideally offer a bit more balance though require a little more forethought.

- One GREAT feature of a spellsword is that dex-based spellswords can actually do damage without relying on sneaks! This is something worthwhile to keep. With this in mind, a spellsword adds either their strength mod or int mod to damage, whichever is higher. This will allow variation in the types of characters without having to resort to the usual "strength build to defeat all" as pretty much every fighting class requires.

- Imbues. Now this is where I see the spellsword as having its special ability and its focus. I suggest three potential imbues at once instead of two, to make it so that the possible magical affects of the spellsword are at the forefront, whilst lowering the damage component itself. All of the damage and affects are dependent on a creature failing its save. Without a creature failing its save, the imbue will not activate and it is just a normal weapon striking.

- The DC of the imbue may need to be tweaked, though I suggested dropping the initial value by 5. However, in this case, the spellsword's int mod increases the DC along with class levels. Intelligence is something a wizard should strongly value and if their "special ability" involves magic, it really should have an affect on their ability. Plus, what makes it all the more important is the same as how a wizard values spell DCs: Their magic does not work without it. So unless a creature fails its save, a wizard is just swinging with whatever crowbar he or she is using.

So those are a few thoughts I have had as far as making the spellsword more balanced. As can be seen, my thoughts are in general a huge nerf...and would obviously require some testing to see if even feasible. I think figuring ways to lower the overall damage and focus instead on trying to get the magical affects to proc for their special damage/abilities would help push a spellsword into its own niche.

It would be awesome to have even more imbues with more effects! And now to put this in the suggestion box I think...

Still, I want to thank Kirito for his work on this class still. It is something I have had a great time farting about with, especially since it finally allowed me to play something more along the lines of what I have thought a bladesinger should be like.

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BegoneThoth
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Re: Spellswords are too strong.

Post by BegoneThoth » Tue Jan 30, 2018 5:32 pm

The lower intelligence argument doesn't really hold water, as the best spell sword damage spells literally ignore intelligence and have no saves.
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flower
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Re: Spellswords are too strong.

Post by flower » Tue Jan 30, 2018 7:06 pm

BegoneThoth wrote:The lower intelligence argument doesn't really hold water, as the best spell sword damage spells literally ignore intelligence and have no saves.

Yes.

For now, Spellsword is hitting hard compared to WM/barbarians. Its hits can and do lower AC of foe, strikes multiple enemies. It can reach very good AC with EMA which cannot be removed by any way, and on top numerous defensive spells increasing AC even further. So one single class takes features of many of other classes, often outperforms them in their primary focus, yet that is still not enough. It upkeeps its spellcasting ability.

It benefits from high INt modifier. Even if going only 20 INt it offers seven sklil points per level. Imagine how many skill points get melee classes? To get more of them they must give up strenght, constitution, dexterity or any other ability. It costs them AB, damage, HPS, saves. Yet spellsword gets full benefit of going this ammount of INt: spell slots, sklil points, spell DCs.
So now imagine spellsword also gets extremely unfair bonus in form of discipline. It gets as much discipline as Fighter. But if you take fighter, you must go 28 levels to receive this bonus. And as a joke, INt modifier also adds DMG.

Spellsword also gets option to customize gear. It gets +5 AC to armour, helmet and shield from EMA. This allows them to fully customize it with other properties, something what almost no meelers can do.

This class is extremely flexible. It can customize itself to face any foe. Using damage shields, with power of wizards, capability of hard hitting dispells where others are sentenced to CL17 scroll. Hard to dispell by any non caster. Yes, breachs will remove many spells. But none of them are critical to make Spellsword die from it - most spells good for them are hard to dispell (immune to breach, and too high CL for mord scroll) by non casters. It also makes full use of any no-save spells.

It would be powerful itself but now come into play imbues. Dispel on hit, lowering AC on hit, etc etc and the only defense against it is a save?

This class right now is a heavy mix of wizard, cleric, WM, barbarian all together in one package. Yet we can still read from several people in this thread, it is not overpowered and it is okay.

(And we did not even talk about monk versions of this...)

Edit: My humble oppinion is this. Nerfing will také aways its unique features, but they are a huge overkill right now. This class simple does not fit among the basic classes in NWN, like Favored Soul, and it will be extremely hard to make it on par with other classes.

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flower
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Re: Spellswords are too strong.

Post by flower » Tue Jan 30, 2018 7:23 pm

The argument monk-spellsword is too ability starved and after dispel looses all many of them cannot stand as well.

Armour slot, shield slot, helmet, two rings, gloves, cloak, boots, belt...all can be now made tripple abilities (basin + rune) or even four abilities (5% item improved by rune)

That means +9 bonus to three to four stats. Drink simple potion of each and you are at the maximum of +12 :D

Edit: okay, minus shield for monk.

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BegoneThoth
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Re: Spellswords are too strong.

Post by BegoneThoth » Tue Jan 30, 2018 9:37 pm

I've said it before and I still believe it, a spellsword is pretty much better at anything else in the game, leagues ahead of all other builds, and outright obsoleting melee.

It's not hard to hit 70 ac and 40 ab with regular expertise, putting you at 'roll a 1 to hit me' territory for every attack but the first, with the ability to hit 75 ac if you for some reason need it, or drop to a more 'normal' 65 ac by toggling off expertise if your opponent is swinging in the 40's or not swinging at you, still pulling a respectable 45ish AB.

Plus the whole, you know, max/emowered igms, incendiary cloud, time stop, greater scant, wall o fire, empowered black tentacles, time-stop, and other caster nonsense that's highly effective even with 'low int.'

Combine in the fact that it seems to by design out DPS a weapon master, and have bonus elemental damage on top of that, and bonus effects that may 'only' proc twice a round...

SS is simply the best build in all categories, outside of perhaps the fringe barb/fight/wm 7 attack kensai thing, but at least that build doesn't have full casting in addition to its absurd numbers.

I feel it needs more then a 'gentle' nerf. Numbers don't lie, 65 ac w/o expertise is absurd for a full caster. Playtesting isn't really needed to just do the math and see how good it is compared to every other build.
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Re: Spellswords are too strong.

Post by Freyason » Tue Jan 30, 2018 10:50 pm

flower wrote:It gets +5 AC to armour, helmet and shield from EMA.
No shield AC from EMA.

Rest on point.

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BrutalForce48
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Re: Spellswords are too strong.

Post by BrutalForce48 » Tue Jan 30, 2018 11:56 pm

Just my two cents worth here .

I do think spellswords are bit overpowered. Like many of the others have said I think that I always saw them a mic of fighter/wiz not the best of both worlds.

I know kirito (for some reason my brain said cortex) already mentioned looking into it when he's free but personally id like to see then lose lvl 7-9 spells in return for the focus into melee. Still gives them a vast assortment of buffs and some offensive spells while still making actual wiz/sorcsget a boon.
Last edited by BrutalForce48 on Wed Jan 31, 2018 2:36 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Cortex
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Re: Spellswords are too strong.

Post by Cortex » Wed Jan 31, 2018 2:26 am

BrutalForce48 wrote:I know CORTEX already mentioned looking into it when he's free but personally id like to see then lose lvl 7-9 spells in return for the focus into melee. Still gives them a vast assortment of buffs and some offensive spells while still making actual wiz/sorcs get a boon.
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Iceborn
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Re: Spellswords are too strong.

Post by Iceborn » Wed Jan 31, 2018 2:50 am

BrutalForce48 wrote:Just my two cents worth here .

I do think spellswords are bit overpowered. Like many of the others have said I think that I always saw them a mic of fighter/wiz not the best of both worlds.

I know kirito (for some reason my brain said cortex) already mentioned looking into it when he's free but personally id like to see then lose lvl 7-9 spells in return for the focus into melee. Still gives them a vast assortment of buffs and some offensive spells while still making actual wiz/sorcsget a boon.
Honestly it was strange for me that spellswords were based on Wizard, rather than Bard. A class that they have a lot more in common thematically.

I'm not sure if it's an option anymore to go back to the lab with them.
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Astral
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Re: Spellswords are too strong.

Post by Astral » Wed Jan 31, 2018 3:58 am

Iceborn wrote: Honestly it was strange for me that spellswords were based on Wizard, rather than Bard. A class that they have a lot more in common thematically.
It was strange to me as well but making it wizard instead of bard was the best decision, looking back. A bard is already a spellsword, a very specific kind of already existing spellsword.

As for balancing. I dont think this path is so broken as is now. I say that because I've had some recent experience leveling up with summons and it was braindead-easy.
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Opustus
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Re: Spellswords are too strong.

Post by Opustus » Wed Jan 31, 2018 12:10 pm

BegoneThoth wrote:I've said it before and I still believe it, a spellsword is pretty much better at anything else in the game, leagues ahead of all other builds, and outright obsoleting melee.

It's not hard to hit 70 ac and 40 ab with regular expertise, putting you at 'roll a 1 to hit me' territory for every attack but the first, with the ability to hit 75 ac if you for some reason need it, or drop to a more 'normal' 65 ac by toggling off expertise if your opponent is swinging in the 40's or not swinging at you, still pulling a respectable 45ish AB.

Plus the whole, you know, max/emowered igms, incendiary cloud, time stop, greater scant, wall o fire, empowered black tentacles, time-stop, and other caster nonsense that's highly effective even with 'low int.'

Combine in the fact that it seems to by design out DPS a weapon master, and have bonus elemental damage on top of that, and bonus effects that may 'only' proc twice a round...

SS is simply the best build in all categories, outside of perhaps the fringe barb/fight/wm 7 attack kensai thing, but at least that build doesn't have full casting in addition to its absurd numbers.

I feel it needs more then a 'gentle' nerf. Numbers don't lie, 65 ac w/o expertise is absurd for a full caster. Playtesting isn't really needed to just do the math and see how good it is compared to every other build.
A good summary of the current state of the path. I think there is a flaw in the design of the path, when it was made equally good at melee as Cleric, forgetting the fact that Wizzy spells are vastly superior to Cleric. Further, I think the Path would've proved as a more interesting build option as something between Cleric and full mage, substituting the need of a summon in PvM but still needing to rely on spellcasting in much of PvP with the enchanced defensive stats. I would personally revise the imbue weapons first, even though they give the path its unique flair.
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ProbablyAMage
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Re: Spellswords are too strong.

Post by ProbablyAMage » Wed Jan 31, 2018 3:17 pm

BegoneThoth wrote: It's not hard to hit 70 ac and 40 ab with regular expertise, putting you at 'roll a 1 to hit me' territory for every attack but the first, with the ability to hit 75 ac if you for some reason need it, or drop to a more 'normal' 65 ac by toggling off expertise if your opponent is swinging in the 40's or not swinging at you, still pulling a respectable 45ish AB.
While it might be possible to hit the numbers you're referencing, it's almost certainly at the sacrifice of enough that it's a non optimal build. That's a full five AC (discounting cleric buffs) and three AB higher than I'll manage on mine, and she's a relatively well optimized, though not perfect build. It's most useful to reference what the overwhelmingly vast majority are likely to play, not outliers, if you want balance rather than nerfing something into the ground.

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Re: Spellswords are too strong.

Post by mourisson1 » Wed Jan 31, 2018 5:18 pm

The problem is everyone is blinded by the monk/SS build. Which has too many synergies imo. The rest of the builds without monks arent that much godlike.
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Cortex
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Re: Spellswords are too strong.

Post by Cortex » Wed Jan 31, 2018 6:34 pm

mourisson1 wrote:The problem is everyone is blinded by the monk/SS build. Which has too many synergies imo. The rest of the builds without monks arent that much godlike.
yes they aaaare
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Sockss
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Re: Spellswords are too strong.

Post by Sockss » Wed Jan 31, 2018 6:51 pm

Top (/Broken) Tier list is like:

Monk SS
SS
Kensai

Druid
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Re: Spellswords are too strong.

Post by PinataPlethora » Wed Jan 31, 2018 6:58 pm

Cortex wrote:
mourisson1 wrote:The problem is everyone is blinded by the monk/SS build. Which has too many synergies imo. The rest of the builds without monks arent that much godlike.
yes they aaaare
My spellsword is just about pure class, and only gets 3APR, but can still solo fairly high level areas with nothing but EMA, and maybe 2-3 heal kits per trip.

I dunno what more you need to be called godlike.

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Re: Spellswords are too strong.

Post by Shadowy Reality » Wed Jan 31, 2018 7:16 pm

PinataPlethora wrote:My spellsword is just about pure class, and only gets 3APR, but can still solo fairly high level areas with nothing but EMA, and maybe 2-3 heal kits per trip.

I dunno what more you need to be called godlike.
I don't think builds are considered godlike for their PvE potential, balance threads are usually made with PvP in mind.

Typical WM also does great in PvE and is a standard for PvP.
Str Shadowdancer PvEs better then both WM and SS and is awful at PvP and you don't see anyone whining about them.

Bear in mind, I agree that SS are a bit too much right now, it's not that their AC/AB/Damage levels are unheard of, it's that they also have spells and imbue effects on top of it.

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Re: Spellswords are too strong.

Post by Sockss » Wed Jan 31, 2018 7:23 pm

STR SD's PvE very specific content very easily. Places with auras, spells or biteback aren't so friendly; certainly possible, but not the fastest. That's really main point of contention for me that they're not as good as other things in pve. They have a comparatively slow clear to other builds.

SS's and Druids are probably top tier in PvE right now. Though they're not as 'safe'.
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Re: Spellswords are too strong.

Post by Hunter548 » Wed Jan 31, 2018 8:03 pm

Spellswords are absolutely bonkers in PvE, yeah. Don't conflate the fact that we've mostly discussed PvP balance with them being weak in PvE.

Negative imbue gives insane sustain, Lightning Imbue gives insane clear speed. Spells serve to help protect you.
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Re: Spellswords are too strong.

Post by BegoneThoth » Wed Jan 31, 2018 9:17 pm

ProbablyAMage wrote:
BegoneThoth wrote: It's not hard to hit 70 ac and 40 ab with regular expertise, putting you at 'roll a 1 to hit me' territory for every attack but the first, with the ability to hit 75 ac if you for some reason need it, or drop to a more 'normal' 65 ac by toggling off expertise if your opponent is swinging in the 40's or not swinging at you, still pulling a respectable 45ish AB.
While it might be possible to hit the numbers you're referencing, it's almost certainly at the sacrifice of enough that it's a non optimal build. That's a full five AC (discounting cleric buffs) and three AB higher than I'll manage on mine, and she's a relatively well optimized, though not perfect build. It's most useful to reference what the overwhelmingly vast majority are likely to play, not outliers, if you want balance rather than nerfing something into the ground.
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Re: Spellswords are too strong.

Post by ForgottenBhaal » Sun Feb 04, 2018 3:05 pm

Seems as most are in agreeance that something has to be done about the Spellswords though, as they as a pure class can do most things that require a multitude of other classes.

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Re: Spellswords are too strong.

Post by BegoneThoth » Sun Feb 04, 2018 4:08 pm

Strongest melee fighter, highest AC w/o being non-functional, and 9th level arcane spells.

You could RP being the islands greatest warrior while also RPing being an Archmage. And nobody could contest you.

It's the best class for both mechanical power and raw RP prowess.
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Re: Spellswords are too strong.

Post by Hunter548 » Sun Feb 04, 2018 8:40 pm

ForgottenBhaal wrote:Seems as most are in agreeance that something has to be done about the Spellswords though, as they as a pure class can do most things that require a multitude of other classes.
That's been the case since this thread was posted. Now it's just been three pages of people talking about potential nerfs and screaming FIX THIS NOW while ignoring that it's already on the team's radar.
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Re: Spellswords are too strong.

Post by Thanatosis » Sun Feb 04, 2018 9:15 pm

BegoneThoth wrote:It's the best class for both mechanical power and raw RP prowess.
Would like to see tier lists of RP builds

What builds give the best RP? Do fighters need RP buffs???????? This is a whole new angle of meta-scale we've never looked at before
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Re: Spellswords are too strong.

Post by RedGiant » Sun Feb 04, 2018 9:32 pm

Thanatosis wrote:What builds give the best RP? Do fighters need RP buffs???????? This is a whole new angle of meta-scale we've never looked at before
ROFL. Okay...that there is funny.

I've been levelling up a spellsword as a side project. I agree they might need some small tweaks, but please don't gut this class. Its already has some substantial negatives.

Yes, with negative imbue they have sustainability, but the fact that you have to use a heal kit...or two...already means you aren't a cleric, druid, favored soul, fey warlock, barbarian, or bard. Most of these classes I've played didn't need ANY if played carefully.

I also think it needs pointed out that all the imbue power is largely elemental damage. Especially in PvP, gutting this beneath the standard -5 resists everyone has will ruin PvP balance. For their two imbues that aren't elemental, magic is already muted and negative is quite easily countered. (If we could make this the kind that somehow heals undead, I think we could further mute it, but don't know if that's technically feasible).

My end run projections on a fairly optimized spell-sword still have well below average HP and down-right crappy saves. Proper spells and gear only compensate for this so much. Most of this OP consider only the melee vs. melee potential, and here spell swords do well and, like all mages, have some options to flee where other melees don't. But still, I think they have ready foils in other classes, particularly full/optimized epic casters.
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