Spellswords are too strong.

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LemonBerry
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Spellswords are too strong.

Post by LemonBerry » Mon Jan 29, 2018 3:23 pm

I am a spellsword, a level 30 one 27 wiz 3 bard (I am thankful i was'nt punished as a legacy and made to delevel, honestly thank you) and i hope in being one my feedback and request for a nerf to themselves adds to the humble request of this post.

The Spellsword Class over all is fun, but it's in dire need of alterations and nerfs.

1) Lightning Imbue does 20 dmg average at 41 dc reflex save to all monsters around me per hit 5 attacks per round. 20 x 5 x 10(monsters) = is a 1000 dmg.. 100 dmg per monster for hitting the one infront of you seems a little drastic.

2) Negative Imbue: dc 41 will save 20 dmg average 5 hits a round resulting in 100 hp a round this makes most places very easy.

3) Currently some of the stacking spell effects from other classes and Spellblades Imbues results in some Godly Damage that needs to be checked. 2d6 undead +1d12 +1d12? +4 essence +1d6 Temp +weapon damage + int damage is in my opinion too much. (suggestion, remove the 1d12 essence effect and have only the on hit spell effect resulting in still a quantity of damage more reliant upon the DC check of the imbue)
Image

4) I think there should be a level cap or sacrifice on the ability to imbue armours with a spell, having a level 27 wizards worth of premo or Acid Sheath proc when hit, dangerously removing the ability to pre-breach is just too much and above and beyond and other character made.


As of currently the class performs a little too well in all area's, it's an exceptional all round do everything character.

If a Dev wants my feed back on a more Q&A based session i will gladly participate.
Last edited by LemonBerry on Mon Jan 29, 2018 3:58 pm, edited 1 time in total.

Sab1
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Re: Spellswords are too strong.

Post by Sab1 » Mon Jan 29, 2018 3:50 pm

Wow. seeing that screen capture makes me want to make a spellsword now.

LemonBerry
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Re: Spellswords are too strong.

Post by LemonBerry » Mon Jan 29, 2018 3:55 pm

Yeah... thats not the response i was hoping for but haha perhaps it's whats needed to make a change.

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Hunter548
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Re: Spellswords are too strong.

Post by Hunter548 » Mon Jan 29, 2018 4:06 pm

Spellswords are presently on The List to be nerfed, as I understand it. It's just a manner of identifying what to nerf without over-doing it (Since no one wants a warlock situation, where too many sensible nerfs are combined, and take the class straight from "Good" to "Garbage").

I dunno if removing the d12 damage the best idea, but they almost certainly could stand to lose the int damage. I think Lightening imbue is also slated to be looked at as far as how many enemies it'll hit, and Kirito's already mentioned a cap on how often the imbue spell effects occur.
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LemonBerry
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Re: Spellswords are too strong.

Post by LemonBerry » Mon Jan 29, 2018 4:11 pm

Hunter548 wrote:Spellswords are presently on The List to be nerfed, as I understand it. It's just a manner of identifying what to nerf without over-doing it (Since no one wants a warlock situation, where too many sensible nerfs are combined, and take the class straight from "Good" to "Garbage").

I dunno if removing the d12 damage the best idea, but they almost certainly could stand to lose the int damage. I think Lightening imbue is also slated to be looked at as far as how many enemies it'll hit, and Kirito's already mentioned a cap on how often the imbue spell effects occur.

Sounds like things are being considered which is nice to hear and have on a more concentrated and open thread as opposed to bits and pieces here and there.

i'll help if anyone wants any feedback from me as i say, i'm more than willing to contribute to making a rounded class, Being an STR one my Damage exceeds most Dex based ones by +18 and a large weapon. +1d10 so nerfing my dmg will make dexers likely struggle.

PinataPlethora
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Re: Spellswords are too strong.

Post by PinataPlethora » Mon Jan 29, 2018 4:20 pm

Those 2d6s are misleading, so I'd advise ignoring them when considering the power of a Spellsword. However, they are currently overpowered.

I'm playing a 27/3, and I feel that Lightning imbue is just a little too good at high level room clearing, not because of its damage, but because of its reliability due to high DC, even with aggressive multiclassing. Even so, lightning could maybe do half damage to all but the primary target, and still be plenty good.

I'd cut the bonus damage back to d4/d6/d8 or something like that, and drop the DCs a bit, so that they're only reliable for pure class or near that. Blackstaff could then give a small DC bump so that imbue effects can be made more effective in short bursts.

Going off of what Hunter said, I think INT should pump DCs instead of damage.

Armor imbue is fine how it is. No matter how powerful it is, it's only one spell, and breach wands are dirt cheap.

LemonBerry
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Re: Spellswords are too strong.

Post by LemonBerry » Mon Jan 29, 2018 4:23 pm

PinataPlethora wrote:Those 2d6s are misleading, so I'd advise ignoring them when considering the power of a Spellsword. However, they are currently overpowered.
Lemonberry wrote: Currently some of the stacking spell effects from other classes and Spellblades Imbues results in some Godly Damage
I consider them becuase i dont believe they should stack at all.. And they stack with far Worse Versions of themselves... They simply should not.

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Iceborn
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Re: Spellswords are too strong.

Post by Iceborn » Mon Jan 29, 2018 4:30 pm

Levelling a spellsword is a mostly binary, very hit and miss process in my experience.

A fully levelled spellsword, in the other hand, is a force to be reckon with, with very few weaknesses. I'd be inclined to say that the imbues need to be streamlined to share a damage pattern, rather than some having damaging effects or not. Either they all do damage, or none of them do.
I'd lean for the latter, to give people an actual reason to build str spellswords, which are still objectively weaker than dex spellswords.

Mage Armor needs to be made unbreachable for spellswords, though. For both PvE and PvP.
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Sanctum
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Re: Spellswords are too strong.

Post by Sanctum » Mon Jan 29, 2018 4:46 pm

I disagree strongly.

Spellsword has been the easiest thing to level that I've played in a while, and it's been essentially effortless to do mostly solo. What deaths I've had have been the result of trying something too ambitious (barb king at 13, etc) because of the general sense of omnipotence the class engenders.

On the surface, at least, the process looks something like:

Quests to 13. Aggressively pursue the ones in the crow's nest that center around the jungle peninsula/FoD. You should be able to do sea bandits/wt boys by about 6, but you probably want a clear or two of the hobgoblin fort first just to get you there.

If you're impatient and just don't want to quest, hit hobgobs 2-3 times, relocate to WT boys/sea bandits, transition to FoD by about 9-10.

This should carry you pretty reliably to 13, at which point you can do the first floor of the spire barbs (don't fight the king though, he's rough), the minmir hills exterior areas, the crags crypts (moradel's a bit dicey at this level, but doable), and the battleground which you can clear in about a minute for 2k xp, provided you get the big boy spawns.

The XP in all of these places remains pretty solid until 18-20, but by this point, you ought to be able to handle minauros fairly effortlessly. By 21, aurilites, duergar, and minauros are all on your solo list. Avernus is good too, but the occasional balor spawn can be problematic. If you're a dex spellsword you can also do spirits at this level, if you're a str spellsword you have to wait for 23. By 23 burning shores is a pretty easy solo, so long as you stay clear of Abulan, and the lowerdark is pretty good too, so long as you're careful about the areas you go into.

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Re: Spellswords are too strong.

Post by LemonBerry » Mon Jan 29, 2018 5:09 pm

Sanctum wrote:I disagree strongly.

Spellsword has been the easiest thing to level that I've played in a while, and it's been essentially effortless to do mostly solo. What deaths I've had have been the result of trying something too ambitious (barb king at 13, etc) because of the general sense of omnipotence the class engenders.

On the surface, at least, the process looks something like:

Quests to 13. Aggressively pursue the ones in the crow's nest that center around the jungle peninsula/FoD. You should be able to do sea bandits/wt boys by about 6, but you probably want a clear or two of the hobgoblin fort first just to get you there.

If you're impatient and just don't want to quest, hit hobgobs 2-3 times, relocate to WT boys/sea bandits, transition to FoD by about 9-10.

This should carry you pretty reliably to 13, at which point you can do the first floor of the spire barbs (don't fight the king though, he's rough), the minmir hills exterior areas, the crags crypts (moradel's a bit dicey at this level, but doable), and the battleground which you can clear in about a minute for 2k xp, provided you get the big boy spawns.

The XP in all of these places remains pretty solid until 18-20, but by this point, you ought to be able to handle minauros fairly effortlessly. By 21, aurilites, duergar, and minauros are all on your solo list. Avernus is good too, but the occasional balor spawn can be problematic. If you're a dex spellsword you can also do spirits at this level, if you're a str spellsword you have to wait for 23. By 23 burning shores is a pretty easy solo, so long as you stay clear of Abulan, and the lowerdark is pretty good too, so long as you're careful about the areas you go into.
Yes, this is my experience more or less...

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Iceborn
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Re: Spellswords are too strong.

Post by Iceborn » Mon Jan 29, 2018 5:11 pm

Perhaps it's just my luck to catch systematic save failures and dispels like I'm a breach magnet.

Playing without necro made it hard at first, but since you can still imbue spells from even restricted schools, that made things vastly easier at certain point.
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LemonBerry
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Re: Spellswords are too strong.

Post by LemonBerry » Mon Jan 29, 2018 5:13 pm

Iceborn wrote:Perhaps it's just my luck to catch systematic save failures and dispels like I'm a breach magnet.
... use invisibility.. or invis wands to move about and strike them down with a dc 41 On hit Silence Fort save... They dont really cast on me.

if i know theres dispel mages there.. i use this tactic.

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Iceborn
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Re: Spellswords are too strong.

Post by Iceborn » Mon Jan 29, 2018 5:16 pm

Yeah, no.

I'd rather shoot myself in each foot twice than go around constantly spamming an inv wand.
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PinataPlethora
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Re: Spellswords are too strong.

Post by PinataPlethora » Mon Jan 29, 2018 5:27 pm

I've found you don't really even need buffs to solo level appropriate areas, once you have Epic Mage Armor. (which you should be getting at 23 or 24) Just use Negative imbue for life steal plus whatever other effect you like. Haste wand, whenever you need a little more oomph. Can't get breached if you don't have any breachable buffs.

And if you're travelling with a group, let some other poor sap eat the breach and carry on as normal.

Freyason
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Re: Spellswords are too strong.

Post by Freyason » Mon Jan 29, 2018 5:56 pm

What wizardly things does SS give up in exchange for all the melee power? Summoning, 1 school and epic spells aside from EMA?

I never made one because just looking at that made it obvious there's nerf hammer size of a house coming. It's almost full mage that also hits like a truck with a weapon lol

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Re: Spellswords are too strong.

Post by Shadowy Reality » Mon Jan 29, 2018 6:20 pm

They could probably lose wizard bonus feats as well.

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mourisson1
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Re: Spellswords are too strong.

Post by mourisson1 » Mon Jan 29, 2018 6:23 pm

I just wonder about all those non-relevant people writing "I have 27/3 spellsword and 5 attacks per round" as this is actually not viable anymore, since spellsword works as 3/4BAB class? I dont say it doesnt need some nerf/adjustment, but you people are throwing around grandfathered numbers here, and using them as arguments.

EDIT.: Also while considering removing more from them, would it be so bad to give them back Epic Focus features? They are not really unbalancing in the terms of combat, mostly, and they are nice features to have.
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Re: Spellswords are too strong.

Post by PinataPlethora » Mon Jan 29, 2018 6:57 pm

My Spellsword is post nerf, so no grandfathered ridiculousness, and it's still a little too powerful, IMO. Got me to mid epics in under a month with a minimum of effort.
Shadowy Reality wrote:They could probably lose wizard bonus feats as well.
If that were the only nerf, it would be a crippling one on its own. Combined with anything else discussed, it would break the class. You need a number of feats like Weapon Finesse, Blind Fight, and combat abilities just to barely keep up with any other combat class, and metamagic is a must simply to have access to your full range of imbue abilities. Take away too many of those options, and you limit the range of viable builds, which is boring. I worry that it would force players to choose either the spell or the sword, instead of the intended combination of both.

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Re: Spellswords are too strong.

Post by mourisson1 » Mon Jan 29, 2018 6:59 pm

PinataPlethora wrote:My Spellsword is post nerf, so no grandfathered ridiculousness, and it's still a little too powerful, IMO. Got me to mid epics in under a month with a minimum of effort.
Yeah, as i said, it is still strong, and I agree with nerf (preferably as Kirito was posting in some topic, limiting the imbue hits per round, which seams very reasonable). I'm just saying that those numbers in first topic are grandfathered and the power is a bit lower.. (yet pretty strong)
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Re: Spellswords are too strong.

Post by BegoneThoth » Mon Jan 29, 2018 7:05 pm

I'm still unconvinced they need free HP and skills like discipline. The argument was made that they need it to function, but so does every other melee. So why do they get it for free?

Neutering their free HP bonus and free discipline would do a lot to balance them out, and give them a tangible weakness.

Damage needs to be toned down and monk AC needs to go as well. They get AC from three stats and with maxed transmutation stat buffs easily sit at 70+ac.
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Re: Spellswords are too strong.

Post by flower » Mon Jan 29, 2018 7:11 pm

If Epic Focuses would be return, then there is really no big price paying for all of these, even with bonus feats gone.

What imho needs a hard hit, is imbue on weapons. DCs are insane and you trigger the check every round several times. Not even save of 60+ would save you against it, you will always roll 1 in combat when something forces you to check every single turn like 2-3 times.

IT is like aura of fear with DC 14, you will fail, and it is only matter of time.

Now lets také look at imbue effects. The check will be triggered on you (be a player or NPc) from least 1 up to 5 times a round. Regardless of DC there is pretty high chance you fail it, and on top of that, you face dc checks of 30+? Whenever you fail it, your AC goes down (more checks a round even!), you loose APR, are silenced (and thus prevented from spellcasting) or you face a dispel of up to 15% (which is way too much for being added -on hit- ability).

Imbues simple cannot stay like they are. They need low chance of trigger, much lower DC checks OR much lower effects. They were a clear overshot from the very beginning. Spellsword sacrifices almost nothing for all its features, and all features together it gains are way too high.

Just look around Ig. From 5 persons you meet three are Spellswords :lol:
l
Edit: and yes the nonsence with free discipline I really do not get up. Their skil points are high so why not to invest into it like everyone else? Clerics also must invest into it skills and feats and never get free bonus, even kensai does not or any other 3/4 melee class.
Last edited by flower on Mon Jan 29, 2018 7:13 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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BegoneThoth
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Re: Spellswords are too strong.

Post by BegoneThoth » Mon Jan 29, 2018 7:13 pm

Imbues going off once a round total would be nice, as would cutting the DC down several pegs.
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PinataPlethora
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Re: Spellswords are too strong.

Post by PinataPlethora » Mon Jan 29, 2018 7:19 pm

I think it all needs to be tied a little more heavily to Wizard level and INT investment, possibly with a L28 boon as an incentive to pure class. Cross-classing more than 3 levels should cause a sharp decline in functionality, so that going for 4APR has a real cost.
BegoneThoth wrote:Neutering their free HP bonus and free discipline would do a lot to balance them out, and give them a tangible weakness.
I'd rather see imbue and damage nerfed, as dropping HP and Disc moves them ever closer to being glass cannons, where I see their intent as a more versatile combat class.

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Re: Spellswords are too strong.

Post by JediMindTrix » Mon Jan 29, 2018 7:32 pm

Damage nerf, imbue nerf, -x CL or even less spellslots

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Re: Spellswords are too strong.

Post by One Two Three Five » Mon Jan 29, 2018 7:38 pm

For the love of god don't nerf them into uselessness for six months because people have never heard of disjunction, team.

Sensible nerfs: limit imbue per flurry, rethink the damage scaling of either imbue or the wizard damage (Although the latter is more easily resisted). 'Proper' dice damage scaling would work: d4/d6/d8, or even d6/d8/d10. Do note that the only 'relevant' damage on that picture is the d12s and the 11 physical. Everything else is available to anyone with UMD or a paladin buddy.

Allowing the monk ones is whatever, 23/4/3 sits pretty firmly in dispel bait territory now that they lost the +3 cl vs dispels, reliant on 4/5 stats to maintain functionality to start with. With a proc-per-flurry change the whole spam-acid-or-whatever thing gets a little null. My opinion on kama APR is similarly whatever. Any damage nerfs will help even that out some.
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