Good aligned monster races.

[Marsi]

I was sure the application of rewards on pre-existing characters was 100% a no no. It's been that way for as long as I've been on the server. When did this change?

Also, I'm skeptical about the idea of monster PC redemption in this way. It's wholly contingent on the possession of an OOC, mechanics derived feature gained from the exploits of another character. Either the redemption would have to be planned from the beginning with possession of the reward, leading to the sort of forced, artificial redemption arcs that has eyes roll, where often the player is looking for the first paper thin excuse to activate the paradigm shift button --- or effectively the player has to stall until through another character they gain the reward, probably grinding for it too.

It doesn't seem like a good precedent to set, imo.

[DM Sollers]

I was sure the application of rewards on pre-existing characters was 100% a no no. It's been that way for as long as I've been on the server. When did this change?

Answer:

An award may only be applied to new characters.

Good alignment for an innately-evil race (as kobolds or drow), and viceversa.

As far as I know, it hasn't changed. I'm personally wary of making exceptions to the rule, but ultimately this choice is up to the head DM and admins.

[Queen Titania]

Yep, Admins could make exceptions, but in general do not expect this, the Neutral alignments should fit most (If not ALL) examples of redemption for monsters.

[The GrumpyCat]

I want to comment on a few points on this thread.

“One of my favorite features of the server are Speedy Messengers (and Goblin Runners!), as a means of facilitating RP where finding a character to interact with would otherwise be improbable. This is a godsend for players who only have a limited amount of time to play in the evening, as it allows them to skip spending most of their online time looking for someone to interact with and jump straight into roleplay.

“

I entirely agree with this. It would be nice if there was a speedy messanger somewhere nice and remote, for underdarkers (All underdarkers! This could be used by evil ones too to entrap good folk! Mwahaha!) to use. With that being said- I can't speak for the other Dms but personally? If I see your Good underdarker hopping into Sibiyad/Guldorand/Tower to use the messanger service? Well I'll... do absolutly nothing.
No seriously. I really don't mind looking the other way if an underdarker (especialy a disguised underdarker!) uses one of the speedy messangers. Now I can't speak for surface characters- it's entirely reasonable if they catch said underdarker and act in a hostile manner, but that's the risk of anywhere on the surface. You get that with the package, as it were. But look popping in to quickly use a speedy is no big deal– just so long as you arn't hanging around, undisguised, and being an Obvious Monster in a civilised area, you're probably fine.

“Point I'm trying to make?

If anyplace on the island is likely to be willing to tolerate oddities, it's probably that big ol' tower that's got a bunch of weirdos in it that don't bathe enough and handle bat guano to try and get a hotter fireball. “

This isn't just about PCs, but is also about NPCs. Even if the PCs are willing to trust a underdarker, the NPCs won't be, and never will be.
Let's use a example.
Jacob Swift is a Arch Chencellor of a university. A liberal, open minded, accepting lot. Near by the Univercity there is a prison for serious and violent offenders. We're talking mass murderers, murderers, rapist, torturers, thieves,, the very worst of the worst, and they're all recognisable by their bright orange jump suits. (which for the sake of this argument, they can never remove.)
Would you be 100% content with Jacob Swift allowing these people, having escaped from their prison to just 'hang about' around the university? Would you REALLY trust it? Would you want your children to go to school where there's a man who wears the uniform of a convicted child mollestor? Sure he says that this one or that one is innocent of the crime they were accused of... but how can anyone really know? Do you want to take that risk? If this one got his trust, what about the next one? Or the next?
On an individual basis PCs can of course choose to trust an underdarker. But they should not expect it of others, nor should they expect NPCs to put up with it. They won't.


The thing that baffles me (and I mean no disrespect to Nym here) is that the complaint levied is... sort of the point of his concept?

Let's be honest, most Surface Underdarkers, especially Drow ones, are going to compared a little to Drizzt. They're treading a very similar story. And that's fine. I like those books actually.
But when I think of those stories do I think:

'Drizzt Do'Urden. A drow who came to the surface and was immediately accepted and given a nice place to live and everyone basically agreed he was a nice chap'

No, one of the corner stones of that character, one of the more interesting aspects, is his fight for acceptance. OF the hostility he meets and, eventually, overcomes.

If that aspect doesn't interest you, then maybe you should just roll up an elf who was enslaved by drow from birth? That way you get to have all the fun!

The fight for acceptence, if you're playing a monster on the surface, is going to be a corner stone of your characterisation, so you'd best be ready to deal with it. It's definatly one of the hardest challenges you can take on Arelith, and I wouldn't recommend it to everyone. But frankly it really -should- be hard.

[Durvayas]

I'm just going to point out that underdarkers CAN go to Sibiyad and linger there, they just can't own property, and should expect to get run out of town regularly by hostile PCs.

Theres nothing stopping good monsters from using that general area as a base, and using the speedy messenger there as thier personal courier aside the risk from PCs. As far as housing, there have been several factions in sibiyad that have let drow and other monsters work for them and stay with them on the sly. The sibiyad fort and guildhouse by the portal are often owned by monster-sympathetic surface baddies who usually have ties to the UD.

If there is to be further dev support for Eilistreans per Kalopsia's suggestion, Kalopsia's cavern or sibiyad wouldn't be a terrible place for it. Theres a cave somewhere in the lost desert that UDers can use for shelter, if I remember right though the majority of the time my drow are caught in Sibiyad at dawn I usually end up either camping one of the tombs in the valley of lost kings, or hiding in the bathhouse. A more static 'safehouse' further from town could quickly become a base if the devs wanted to support that concept more, since Sibiyad is basically surface skullport.

Edit: A more stable means of getting to sibiyad from the UD besides being best friends with whoever owns the outpost would also be very helpful to RP with the lawless town. Even if you put the tunnel going topside somewhere distant from Andunor where its quite a hike to get there, it would be much more convenient for the 'good monster' concept.

If you aren't best friends with whoever owns the outpost(you won't get access otherwise, there are like 3 chests they have to let you get access to(because the boat is linked to the quarter doors) in order for you to use the route, so it requires more OOC trust than IC really) the only way to get to sibiyad is via portal, and the only way back is via lense unless you are in your high epics and can solo the orclands(and have 10-30 minutes to burn). Making the trip less arduous would go a long way to increasing foot traffic there.

[I Don~t Feel Like Dancing]

More paths from the surface to the UD could relieve many of the OOC inconveniences of being caught out/trapped on the surface without oversaturating the island in portals.

This would be helpful to UD characters of all alignments, and probably to a few surfacers too. Maybe make them one way passages, easy to slip into the UD with, but you'd need to use another way to get back out.

[Seven Sons of Sin]

The real problem is that setting up good-aligned monster races as a "reward" means players see it as a reward - something thought that is prized, sought after, to be achieved. It's the wrong type of language, and the wrong type of system.

And my assertion towards the Tower is likely baseless today (hopefully). A year ago, it was very much the truth. But my limited interactions over monster races in the past year have largely been negative and disheartening because -

- players/characters like to philosophize about what is the nature of morality
- players/characters thinks good RP means interrogating lore, to the point of defending monsters, is a good thing
- players/characters use the "end game" argument to the point where socializing with monsters becomes necessity rather than something uncommon
- players fear PvP, so characters fear confrontations with monsters
- players/characters have a positive association between edginess and good RP. Like being an edgy CG tiefling is somehow automatically better than being an edgy CG human/elf/dwarf/whatever. (p.s. it's not)

Generally, and this is me being a prude, good-aligned monsters should be locked behind the doors of DM Team approval and atleast 30 RPR. I'd put tieflings back there too.

Unless, of course, there's community consensus that "opening up" playable races is acceptable, and the risk of degenerating into snowflake status is a risk we're willing to take.

Forgive me if this is too harsh or off-topic. I wouldn't wish playing a good aligned race (and all its baggage) on anyone.

[DarkDreamer]

I hate anything locked behind the 30 rpr personally, especially when it can be near unachievable if your not on a DM friendly time zone or not watched by them constantly. Honestly I would love to see that lock on characters completely removed, I think the award system does better then any RPR system and when that fails, the DMs tend to notice it rather quickly.

[Queen Titania]

Also for the most part, Good aligned monsters and tieflings have not been played badly. The reaction to either sometimes has been too soft/too defensive at times, but as of late this has slightly improved, especially towards the former.

[PinataPlethora]

Generally, and this is me being a prude, good-aligned monsters should be locked behind the doors of DM Team approval and atleast 30 RPR. I'd put tieflings back there too.

I think a 30RPR is a little too harsh, and team approval is unnecessary, given that this is a place where people are meant to indulge in fantasy and have fun. 20RPR seems to be where most people level off, once they've gotten the hang of good roleplaying, and it would be proof enough to me that they're ready to give a more challenging concept a shot. Certainly, they should be under greater scrutiny by the DMs to ensure that they're not detrimental to the environment, but you have to give people a little leeway if you want them to grow.

[Xerah]

And my assertion towards the Tower is likely baseless today (hopefully). A year ago, it was very much the truth.

Fair enough, sorry for reacting negatively.

You just made it seem like we welcome one and all when that isn't the case. Those that are allowed in there are generally there after a lot of work even if not all members of it agree and may be doing something about it.

[Beneidalus]

Seven Sons of Sin spittin' the hard truth with that checklist, and I feel like at least three more threads could be started with their own related topics because of it.

A lot of times it feels like these things come down to folks not separating IC and OOC well enough.


Incorrectly philosophizing morality on real world standards, rather than fantasy standards. Leading them to defending monster races. We all know in the real world, that bears are dangerous, they might not be evil, but shit, don't mess with bears! Likewise, there are histories of interaction that suggest the same caution with monster races. Players fear consequence and losing, which is why the shrink away from PvP, unfortunate as it is. That or they're too invested in always winning! So you have others that stray too far opposite. I would love to see more casual competitive PvP. Give the players something to fight for; encourage 'em to step out of their comfort zone. Finally, with the edginess, I think the only treatment for that, is time spent in mature environments. Gotta be the change we wanna see, rather than enabling or rewarding silly / un-immersive role play. Challenge folks, nudge 'em out of their comfort zone. Role play is the perfect setting for it

[Morderon]

I'd be fine with the removal of the good award. Just because it doesn't functionally add much. Okay you can now take paladin and the vs good spells will effect you.

But...

Want to crusade against evil/lloth/slavery/necromancy/undead?

Want to be a devout of x good deity?

You can do both as a neutral alignment.

In addition, taking the good award doesn't lower the bar for your justification to be on the surface or among surfacers.

Good award causes to many hurt feelings and confusion (i know OOCly that dude took the good award.. so I should give them more leeway right? No.) while not opening up (much) of anything compared to a non-award character.

[RedGiant]

It actually opens up a slew of mechanical possibilities not otherwise playable, from paladin, to cleric, to secretive PRC-based organizations. I like Nym and respect Nym's RP, but butt-hurt-ed-ness isn't a reason to remove an interesting award option others in the community might like to explore under different parameters than what Nymself has chosen.

If butt-hurt-ed-ness is a reason to remove a PC option, then please start with kensai, because I am still butt-hurt-ed about that!

Or...we could just leave the options in and let players move on from the concepts they don't like using Arelith's rather splendid retirement system.

[BegoneThoth]

I thought the idea of locking the 'good' monsters behind the roll was to prevent a flood of good drow PC's.

[Morderon]

It actually opens up a slew of mechanical possibilities not otherwise playable, from paladin, to cleric, to secretive PRC-based organizations. I like Nym and respect Nym's RP, but butt-hurt-ed-ness isn't a reason to remove an interesting award option others in the community might like to explore under different parameters than what Nymself has chosen.

If butt-hurt-ed-ness is a reason to remove a PC option, then please start with kensai, because I am still butt-hurt-ed about that!

Or...we could just leave the options in and let players move on from the concepts they don't like using Arelith's rather splendid retirement system.

Most good deities allow clerics to have a neutral alignment.. the only one that didn't out of the many I checked was Lathander.

That secretive prc-based organization? Allows neutrals too.

[Durvayas]

I thought the idea of locking the 'good' monsters behind the roll was to prevent a flood of good drow PC's.

It did. There are still no more than maybe 3-4 good drow at any given month, if that. Its hugbolds and gnolls that tend to really push the envelope. A dark elf can still be considered a person, but the other two are literally monsterous.

If population is an issue, shift it up a tier from normal to greater reward, but overall I'm seeing the issue being less that these PCs exist, and more that their non-monster counterparts are being too soft/accepting of them.

[RedGiant]

Oh gosh, I knew I should have been more specific with a code contributor. There is a short list of other deities that fall in that category, most notably a small cluster of nature-ish dieties. Perhaps the most recognizeable of these is Mielikki, the object of worship of that most famous of monster race turncoats.

Moreover, while correct about said organization's alignment provisions, certain optimal path/class combinations flourish with these restricted alignment concepts as the base.

Not to split hairs here, but, this admittedly narrow band of concepts physically requires the award. If I wanted to play a LN kobold, an alignment type which makes up roughly 25% of said race (according to races of the dragon) and who venerated good-leaning members of the draconic pantheon, that wouldn't be reward territory. But, if my concept veers into paladin of bahamut territory, then obviously the reward is required.

I'd like to see these rare opportunities remain and I like the mechanism already in place to keep them rare, without making it impossible for mere mortals (i.e. 5%).

[BegoneThoth]

I thought the idea of locking the 'good' monsters behind the roll was to prevent a flood of good drow PC's.

It did. There are still no more than maybe 3-4 good drow at any given month, if that. Its hugbolds and gnolls that tend to really push the envelope. A dark elf can still be considered a person, but the other two are literally monsterous.

If population is an issue, shift it up a tier from normal to greater reward, but overall I'm seeing the issue being less that these PCs exist, and more that their non-monster counterparts are being too soft/accepting of them.

Depending on where you go and who you're with, you can sure catch a lot of IC flack for treating 'good' monsters like monsters.

But I just keep it IC and don't go to those places. Think that's the best way to do it.

[Xuuldar]

I feel like it comes down to the same issue I have seen in PnP, everyone has their own opinion on what good and evil means. It's very much a sliding scale and people have views on it that are all over the map. In this case I would say that if you think of good in a way that you want to play a Drizzt-esque surface Drow, That will not work on Arelith. But there is no sign above your character's head with a flashing light that says you are good. If I was playing it I would likely keep the fact that I was good as a secret. I would just covertly fight against evil. Eventually people would likely figure it out or realize it but I think it could be very fun to RP that secret.

Maybe the Wiki needs a disclaimer saying that if you play a "Good monster" know that it does not mean you can be a surface monster.

If butt-hurt-ed-ness is a reason to remove a PC option, then please start with kensai, because I am still butt-hurt-ed about that!

I am with ya there, I am still very much experiencing rectal discomfort over that change.

[Queen Titania]

Maybe the Wiki needs a disclaimer saying that if you play a "Good monster" know that it does not mean you can be a surface monster.

I can add a clarification to the wiki with something along this line.

[WanderingPoet]

If I was playing it I would likely keep the fact that I was good as a secret. I would just covertly fight against evil. Eventually people would likely figure it out or realize it but I think it could be very fun to RP that secret.

One thing to also consider is what is good within the subculture of a race - a 'good' gnoll may be a gnoll that decides to eat non-thinking animals(which may or may not include goblins), rather than whatever is tasty. A 'good' drow may work to free other drow slaves but still see Surfacers/other underdarkers as filth and kill/enslave them for being lesser. May not be 'good' by human standards, or surfacer standards, but it is 'good' for a drow.

Coming across a 'Good' Drow, even if they say they worship Eilistraee - my elf has essentially no reason to trust them. They could be lying about Eilistraee, they could be playing nice and then going evil when no one is looking, they could be a spy. Better in his opinion to keep a wary eye and distance from them so that they can be taken down when they betray us!

[flower]

You are all putting into too much thought. It is just a game

I cannot speak for other monster races, but the main issue with g-aligned Drow is the best potentional lays in small community of them. It offers background for role playing their related culture, while leaves open option to act openly or hidden, drawing into service other neutral/good aligned Drow/monsters and moving things around.

If single, then the game play is more of pen and paper adventuring. Which is not bad. Both ways depend on to have people to play with. That is all you need.

And yes, more hidden messengers around would help a lot towards that.

[Hunter548]

my elf has essentially no reason to trust them. They could be lying about Eilistraee, they could be playing nice and then going evil when no one is looking, they could be a spy. Better in his opinion to keep a wary eye and distance from them so that they can be taken down when they betray us!

This is what always gets me when people proclaim good aligned drow trustworthy. Their entire racial hat is "devious, conniving backstabbers who lie like fish swim". I'm amazed an evil drow hasn't claimed to be good aligned to infiltrate the surface to one degree or another yet.


maybe I'll have to do that if I ever play a drow again

[Xarge VI]

Or maybe no actual good drow exist. They are all just playing a long con.