Good aligned monster races.

[Invader_Nym]

I suggest you remove the good aligned monster race award, as it's effectively unplayable. It's not simply a matter of having to face a challenge that's greater than average. I actually like a challenge. Unfortunately, there's no challenge associated with playing a good-aligned monster, because you can't go anywhere or do anything.

If the staff is so adverse to good-aligned monsters, I would suggest they make it official and ban them altogether; what we have now is effectively a ban on them anyway. To anyone considering a good-aligned monster race I'd recommend you save your award.

[Queen Titania]

What are you struggling with? "Can't go anywhere or do anything" is simply false. You're limited to the same restrictions and issues other monsters have, except now, you're the odd ball amongst your other monsters.

Maybe you have to hide your good tendencies. Watch say, your fellow monsters capture and torture a prisoner, then you sneak in while they're occupied and free them.

Good aligned monster also does NOT equal surface monster. The Drizz't or Deekin model probably isn't going to work for most monsters. Staying in the underdark is generally going to be easier.

But it depends on your situation. I disagree it should be removed if on your personal playback you find it unplayable, as I've seen plenty do fine with the good reward.

There's not much "feedback" here for me to go with on assisting you, and this is worded more as a suggestion. Can you get more detailed? What is your personal experience? What did you try? Why did it not work?

The one thing I do recommend, to all of those using the reward, is do not follow the Drizz't/Deekin model, and certainly, don't go to live on the surface just because you are good.

[RedGiant]

I'm not sure if this is in regard to a specific incident, but as one who once had a character temporarily deleted as a punishment in the old days, I actually think were in a 'good' place now as a server and as a community on this subject.

To your point, monsters are stuck being monsters and going the places only monsters can go, that is a fact. It is also a fact that players are always trying to push the bounds on this. Alongside these issues, we also have a brand new crop of DMs, so there is probably some short-term 'settling' that must occur here.

BUT, I like that monster races are allowed with an award, acknowledging that its a challenge on top of a challenge. That being said, I don't really want to see the option taken away. (I've always thought a kobold paladin of bahamut would be fun....tough...but fun.) So, I disagree with your OP in principle.



As a frequent player of monster races, however, there is an angsty spirit to your OP that I totally understand. Rather than having the option taken away, I would like to see the community continue to evolve on this subject. I think we're in a pretty good place, and we have come a loooong way since the initial over-corrections, but there is still room to fine tune IMO.

I don't want to start another UD raaaah...Surface raaah thread, so I will try to state what I think might be behind your angst. There is a fundamental lack of parity in general server access as well as a seeming disparity in staff energy put toward "zone" enforcement. IMO, there shouldn't be lots of no-go zones for monster races without comparable no-go zones for surfacers.

As above, I would really just like to see some minor tweaks toward parity...however the staff works that out, be it more no-go zones, less, or even a redistribution of staff enforcement energy.

[Beneidalus]

I've talked with others who have expressed similar concerns, and I think Red Giant has put it beautifully. The module access disparity isn't quite on par between 'monster' races and those who aren't. It can breed a little frustration at times.

Many players just opt to not play with that frustration, and so the racial spread begins to tip heavily one way more than another.

[Invader_Nym]

You're basically 100% alienated from the underdark by the fact that everyone else has a value system diametrically opposed to that of your character.

You can't go to any settlements, and thus you can't interact with anyone, on the surface, because you're a monster.

You can't meet people, go anywhere, or do anything. Once the novelty of being a good-aligned monster wears off, you're left twiddling your thumbs with no place to go. It's untenable.

[PinataPlethora]

[...]it's effectively unplayable.

Consider that there are a lot of other ways, not necessarily involving unusual alignment, by which you can make a character unplayable through roleplay choices. Good aligned monsters are just the most readily apparent, and the ones that make players most upset, since they cost a gift.

There was a time when Dragons were a playable race, and they were so cool and different that, when you got a Major Award, there really wasn't any question of what to do with it; it was just dragon time. This led to a lot of characters that were what they were out of novelty, but had no direction or motivation to speak of. Not fun for the player, and not fun for those around them, either. All of this is to say that it's important to examine your motivations before making the choice to play an exceptionally unusual character.

I don't think that allowing good aligned monsters is detrimental to the server, as I've seen more than one played well and enjoyably, but I think that trying to play one may have been the wrong choice for you. I would also like to echo your warning with a small addition. To anyone considering a good-aligned monster race, I'd recommend you save your award until you have a viable character concept that you're willing to sacrifice for.

[Iceborn]

Playing a good monster is, by all means, tough. Not only you are a pariah; but you are a pariah to the pariahs. You are the exception to all the rules. THE ULTIMATE SNOWFLAKE. And playing one should be considered a very, very hard branch of RP that can end poorly with the faintest mistake. Reputation can be everything in our little persistent world.

A good monster has no place in this world. It's something that wasn't meant to be.
If you are intent on playing this kind of character, you should know to be ready to be kicked and punched and bullied every breathing second, because that is the existence of the good monster, and finding anything else is but a brief respite in a life of torment.

This all should be kind of obvious when you make a character like this. I can add it as a warning to the wiki if you rather, but otherwise I'd like the path to remain as-is, because I'm of the sort that wants to play a good monster in the future.

[flower]

Are you mad?

The thing you do not like your gameplay does not mean others do not and should it be removed. I loved playing Brizshala and even with limited access i never felt any hardship.

If you do not like it, do not play it. But do not také that from others!

Edit: and i leave aside all my offers to get involved you in our current play was discarded by argument you study and have no time for that!

[Queen Titania]

You're basically 100% alienated from the underdark by the fact that everyone else has a value system diametrically opposed to that of your character.

You can't go to any settlements, and thus you can't interact with anyone, on the surface, because you're a monster.

You can't meet people, go anywhere, or do anything. Once the novelty of being a good-aligned monster wears off, you're left twiddling your thumbs with no place to go. It's untenable.

You're only 100% alienated if your character fails to find those with common values in the Underdark (There are other good-aligned monsters), or refuse to subtly undermine those with opposed values. I think the issue is that you need to re-imagine what a good-aligned monster may play out in the story.

You can't go to any settlements, and that will probably never change. It doesn't mean you can't act with surfacers, though expect it to be tense and dangerous at first and trust to always be questioned.

You can go all the places regular monsters go, meet all the people regular monsters do, and you can do anything they can do. The issue is you simply need to reimagine your concept, as I think you mean you are not able to do what you thought a good monster could do, which was, interact more easily with the Surface from my guess.

Imagine a different scenario than a Drizzt/Deekin, a different story, and you will find more success with the concept.

Otherwise, it may not be a reward that works for you, especially if it lacks the novelty you desire.

[Mouthy Expert]

Just because your character sheet says good doesn't mean you have to actively oppose the rest of the UD and try to buddy up with surfacers. Maybe you have a good aligned drow who really, genuinely believes his/her people were wronged by the surface elves, and looks for a nonviolent resolution to the war between them, while treating other drow with acts of genuine kindness to try and sway them.

[The GrumpyCat]

Just want to add in agreement with what other people have said. Yes, playing a Good Aligned monster is hard. But it should be, and I'd hope the challenges of such would be obvious enough that anyone taking the option would be ready for them.

Titania brushed the issue of Surface Monsters - Such a thing is possible, but it's really playing Arelith on hard mode. So don't do it unless you're prepared for that level of difficulty.

[flower]

i spent over year on my good aligned Drow and i never felt any issues or troubles or being banned from anywhere.

Always enough companions to play with, or random encounters. My Drow rarely if ever visited Andunor or other towns (only sometimes crossing trough them, buying lens here and there).

Most of the time she also never visited Tower, until people literary dragged me in and make me used to it for a brief period (and in fact, it made me very lazy!).

That style of play is exactly what Nym calls it lacks: challenge. To wander outside only at night, pre plan everything, always stocking up lenses and supplies cause you never know when you can re supply. The fact you never know what would happen at next encounter.

Instead of embracing this challenge my friend always complained he must wait for night, is restricted here and there. Imho, Nym you prefer lazy approach to the game, like many other people, who constantly call for things being simpliefied, evened out, and so on. That is why you will be always displeased playing G-aligned monster.

[Mouthy Expert]

getting kinda personal there buddy.

[The GrumpyCat]

I agree with your point entirely Flower, though you could perhaps have been a little gentler in your words. You sounded a little harsh there! Nothing wrong with not wanting a challenge, or being a little 'lazy' as you call it, we're all here to have fun and for some that sort of play just isn't fun!

which is fine, to each to their own.

But still - your end comment is entirely valid. if you don't like a challenge, don't play a Good Aligned monsterous race, because that's really what it is.

[Invader_Nym]

Instead of embracing this challenge my friend always complained he must wait for night, is restricted here and there. Imho, Nym you prefer lazy approach to the game, like many other people, who constantly call for things being simpliefied, evened out, and so on. That is why you will be always displeased playing G-aligned monster.

Don't you not play your good-aligned monster for the exact same reason? I stopped playing and you ended up having nothing to do, nowhere to go, and nobody to play with? Isn't that the case?

You want to talk about the lazy approach? The lazy approach is plugging your ears and saying "everything is fine" rather than unpacking and analyzing a legitimate problem.

I addressed this 'oh you just can't handle the challenge' argument right from the get-go. I actually had no problem developing my character. The problem, as I made very clear, but nobody bothered to address because I made such a valid point, is that you can't play in the underdark because 99.9% of the underdark holds an opposing value system (That's EXACTLY the point of being a good-aligned monster race), and you can't play on the surface, because you're a good-aligned monster.

I'll reiterate my earlier point, which is that taking the good-alignment award is taking yourself out of the campaign. Once the novelty wears off, you'll just be stuck with a character that can't go anywhere and can't interact with anyone. It's not just an uphill battle, as people would naively have you believe. It's the willful choice to effectively extract yourself from the campaign.

[Queen Titania]

Instead of embracing this challenge my friend always complained he must wait for night, is restricted here and there. Imho, Nym you prefer lazy approach to the game, like many other people, who constantly call for things being simpliefied, evened out, and so on. That is why you will be always displeased playing G-aligned monster.

Don't you not play your good-aligned monster for the exact same reason? I stopped playing and you ended up having nothing to do, nowhere to go, and nobody to play with? Isn't that the case?

You want to talk about the lazy approach? The lazy approach is plugging your ears and saying "everything is fine" rather than unpacking and analyzing a legitimate problem.

I addressed this 'oh you just can't handle the challenge' argument right from the get-go. I actually had no problem developing my character. The problem, as I made very clear, but nobody bothered to address because I made such a valid point, is that you can't play in the underdark because 99.9% of the underdark holds an opposing value system (That's EXACTLY the point of being a good-aligned monster race), and you can't play on the surface, because you're a good-aligned monster.

I'll reiterate my earlier point, which is that taking the good-alignment award is taking yourself out of the campaign. Once the novelty wears off, you'll just be stuck with a character that can't go anywhere and can't interact with anyone. It's not just an uphill battle, as people would naively have you believe. It's the willful choice to effectively extract yourself from the campaign.

I get your frustration, and again, it may not be a concept for you to play.

If you offer more context (Situations, examples), we could perhaps help give more detailed response to your feedback. Your initial post and this one both lack examples, but from observation I can give several examples where Good-Aligned monsters have successfully played both in the underdark (A drow showing compassion for a captured slave after the high priestess finished the tormenting of them), and spent some time in the surface (A gnoll participating in the grove) with success, and for lengthy periods.

The issue of being a monster will always be an obstacle, but creating a story is absolutely possible. Your feedback lacks information on what your character is trying to do, what is their goal, their story? Generic, non-detailed feedback is not good feedback, which is why the OP is more of a suggestion.

Try: Hey, so I tried playing a good-aligned monster and I've found the experience to be less than stellar because reason X, Y, Z. I think if X was adjusted so this occurred, and Y was slightly changed here, my experience would have improved, or consider removing Good Aligned Monster Races as their numbers are rather high, hurting the novelty factor.

You might get replies saying: "Hey, I agree, X happened to me too, or, I didn't have this Y experience at all, my experience was like this: Or, have you tried C? C is neat."

I'm not saying what you are putting forward is wrong, but it doesn't function much as feedback. Good, detailed feedback is a bit more useful for developers.

[BegoneThoth]

The key is persistence and consistency in your actions. Eventually people will come around, as I've worked with monstrous Pc's before that had to be vetted and vouched for.

So build that reputation. Expect to get kicked around until you do.

[DarkDreamer]

Nym, I played with you as Calel'ruril, I found your character and RP to be ideal for what I was seeking in a "Good" Underdarker. I know your struggling sometimes but if you count things, you have had a LOT of surface RP, for a while you were even fully welcomed in the Arcane Tower through the works of my "Black Archer" which is no small feat by itself. Nym is a great char, just like Brizshala. You both had great/different ideas how a GOOD drow should be. Do I believe there should be a bit more room for "GOOD" drow and "GOOD" monsters on the surface that have taken the time and effort to earn it, yeah dms should consider that. Maybe thats a better suggestion then to ban it all together?

[Kalopsia]

For me, the greatest challenge while playing a good-aligned drow on the surface was to find RP before dawn - as otherwise I’d be stuck in a cave, forced to waste a lens or afk for over one RL hour.

Basically, unless your toon happens to be an epic illusionist, there is no means to contact allies and friends. No access to speedy messengers, for obvious reasons. No goblins, as those might betray relationships to an underdarker and it’d be admittedly a bit unreasonable for a persecuted character to travel to a city where they might be killed on sight - just to send a message.

Daylight is an issue that can be dealt with. But the inability to contact players is a huge problem.

A possible solution would be to add NPC messengers to a certain cavern on the surface that currently serves as a sanctuary for similarly minded characters. The ability to contact people would allow for more possible interaction with trusted allies without having to allow monster races in surface settlements.

If, in addition to that, a planar portal source (not a destination) would be added to said cavern, even the dreaded daylight afk time could be prevented, as currently it is a walk of 15 RL minutes just to reach the next planar portal and respond to possibly received messengers.

I cannot speak for all good-aligned drow, but I personally do believe that authentic Eilistraeean surface RP could have its place on Arelith without a huge negative impact on the general attitude regarding drow. All we’d need is a tiny bit of attention to make playing such chars less annoying.

A minor side note: If any developer would like to know the exact location of this cavern, do feel free to send me a PM - I wanted to avoid posting FOIG information in a public forum thread.

[Beneidalus]

I feel like it's important to note that drow can go into the sunlight? Just properly RP a little discomfort. Don't need to stall your RP and hide in a cave. Just have it reflected in your RP appropriately.

[DarkDreamer]

I could agree to this, it would be good to give the Eilistraeens a place to gather as well as actual good aligned monsters a place to go. Perhaps something that can be looked into?

[Kalopsia]

I feel like it's important to note that drow can go into the sunlight? Just properly RP a little discomfort. Don't need to stall your RP and hide in a cave. Just have it reflected in your RP appropriately.

Drow, are most unaccustomed to daylight, and while they may not always share the fear of the surface felt by many svirfneblin, they're physical transformation at the hand of the Elven Patheon, has left them almost entirely unable to operate in daylight. This race, more than any other should expect DMs to take a dim view of daylight activity.

Source: viewtopic.php?f=23&t=8569

[PinataPlethora]

I'll reiterate my earlier point, which is that taking the good-alignment award is taking yourself out of the campaign. Once the novelty wears off, you'll just be stuck with a character that can't go anywhere and can't interact with anyone. It's not just an uphill battle, as people would naively have you believe. It's the willful choice to effectively extract yourself from the campaign.

That's just how it goes, sometimes. The majority of my characters don't make it past a few weeks, because either I couldn't find a place to fit them in, or I wasn't passionate enough about the character to muddle through the lonely parts. That's the risk you take every time you spend an award, and I don't think you'd have bothered making a post if one of your non-award characters hadn't worked out.

I should add that I'm currently playing a monster race character which cost me an award, who is treated as something of a pariah, but it's just an alt, and I find that works best. If the climate isn't right, I switch to my main, but when I do find the right situation to RP in, it's absolutely worth the wait and the effort.

[Beneidalus]

@ Kalopsia

"Light Blindness: Abrupt exposure to bright light (such as sunlight or a daylight spell) blinds drow for 1 round. In addition, they take a –1 circumstance penalty on attack rolls, saves, and checks when in bright light."

- Sourcebook: Drow of the Underdark, pg. 36 https://rpg.rem.uz/Dungeons%20%26%20Dra ... erdark.pdf

Viewing this in light of Irongron's quote you posed (Light, ha. Pun.), there's not much contradiction? Even if he worded it heavily. I've been roleplaying here on arelith, drow specifically, for I dunno? Five years? Periodically venture into the sunlight and there's never been an issue. Just properly RP it.

What's more, you have official evil drow characters and drowish organizations who frequently, or exclusively, operate on the surface.

In any case, I shan't derail much more. On one hand I feel for the OP's frustrations, because access disparity and misguided player outlooks can needlessly hamper RP towards this end. But as well, it's definitely hard-mode to play the stereotypical bad guy, but good.

[Kalopsia]

No, on Arelith drow will never get used to sunlight. A drow that's unaffected by it would be a 5%.

That is the response I got when asking about Eilistraeeans and daylight activity. Even if lore states otherwise, drow on Arelith will always remain creatures of the night.

That said, I'd certainly not be opposed to a system of actual mechanical penalties to complement the current attitude regarding drow and daylight. Perhaps, a system of accustomization could be added to (partially) prevent such penalties.

For example, a drow in sunlight could get -10 to AB/AC and 50% spell failure, as well as -10 regeneration.

Every (non-afk) tick would slightly increase the level of accustomization, to allow drow to get used to brighter environments and very slowly, perhaps even after a RL year of continued exposure, reduce said penalties by up to 50%.
The other 50% would be dependent on the choice of deity, to represent Eilistraee aiding the drow to overcome Lolth's curse.
The resulting final penalties could scale percentually depending on the current daytime (and possibly even weather) to represent dawn being less painful for drow eyes than a bright noon. The required area and weather flags are, in fact, already present in the vampire scripts.

Anyway - that's a topic for another thread.

First of all, we should discuss those important quality of life improvements Eilistraeean drow on the surface need so urgently: Access to messengers and supplies. And perhaps a portal source.