Kensai...Sriously?

[RedGiant]

- Kensai no longer have permanent Freedom of Movement.

The one good thing remaining about the class.

So now they listen well, have one extra attack, and can't use magic except when they can, nor use ranged weapons except when they can?

Me thinks kensai is perhaps the most abused "balance" class ever. Why do not we just retire it?

I would even take the original trap class kensai against whatever it is now. I felt like a sword saint when I had +10 disc and was fast. I would even take +10 disc and 1 extra attack. But I don't know what it is now.

This might be my usual reactionary bit, but Sriously. Kensai. *twitches*

[RedGiant]

Okay, that was reactionary. And I should balance it out with thanks for the hard work and I love 95% of the other stuff as usual. Don't think I didn't see what you did there with Barbarians, and how you incentivized the epics levels, which really weren't previously. Good job!

But oh my Kensai. *cries self to sleep on the bitter tears of the first world problem of the 95% love / 5% hate of another Arelith update*

[TalonTheHalfDrow]

So I have to agree with the Kensai problem. If you're taking away the last thing that even makes the Path even remotely worth while, then just retire the path instead of making everyone who has it now basically a magically inept swish swoosher. I was skeptical about the balance of the first kensai rework, removing permanent haste, but I saw the error in my thinking there. With this, I'm not seeing any balance in this other than gutting a dead deer, leaving behind nothing but the hide and still calling it a whole deer.

If you plan on adding something to it in the future, then alright I'll be patient and watch and wait, but if nothing is being added then I'm pushing for kensai to just be retired.

[Dr. B]

I would even take the original trap class kensai against whatever it is now. I felt like a sword saint when I had +10 disc and was fast. I would even take +10 disc and 1 extra attack. But I don't know what it is now.

Really?

That god awful thing that actually moved slower than non-kensai characters when they were hasted, could have its haste dispelled, and could not use any potions or ranged weapons at all? A thing that, for all intents and purposes, was nothing but a slower-moving warrior with +10 disc? That?

That thing was a joke.

This is less a problem for the path, and more a problem for people who now feel that their character, as they have built is, is now gimped somewhat because they didn't build it for saves. This change encourages people to do that.

Time to hit the -removexp button, I guess.

[Tarkus the dog]

TBH I'm very bothered by the Kensai change because my character is an American and without freedom he is ruined.

[Hunter548]

Am I being trolled right now?

Kensai, right now, has a semi-unique ability in that it gives you an extra attack at full bab. That's crazy strong by itself. You also get free ac, +6 saves versus spells (at 30) that will stack with spellcraft, and +10 spot/listen so that losing True Seeing isn't a huge problem for dealing with stealthers. Kensai gives a ton of bonuses, and isn't even 100% limited from magic anymore. Losing permafreedom isn't the end of the world unless you're ignoring your reflex entirely, in which case the issue isn't that kensai is too weak, it's that you made an error with your build.

Permanent immunities are, by and large, bad. This is why artifacts have lost them, and it's why kensai are losing perma-freedom (And also because kensai is, by and large, rather strong in the right build).

I'm struggling to see how a weapon master who drops six attacks, three of them at full AB isn't sword saint-like enough. I fail to see how a barbarian with seven attacks, four at full AB is a "dead deer". I fail to see how a COT with eight attacks, four of them at mid 50s ab, is indicative of the class being retired.

[Cortex]

Invisible permanent freedom wasn't that a good idea in hindsight. If a mundane consumable is added that gives temporary visible freedom, this will be excellent.

That aside, kensai remains immensely powerful for PvE and not at all a trap path. Clarity still deals with 99% of any PvE woes you may face without freedom, it's only really necessary in PvP, which is where it may be weaker.

Just remember that the nerfs to Divine Power and Time Stop counter balance in favor of kensai too!

[flower]

Imho the permanent FoM was critical part of kensai. Unable to defend in other means against slow / paralise effects other but save which you may fail at any time. It was strong yes but on the other hand there is different weakness like darkness which you cannot ever counter but run.

[Cortex]

Imho the permanent FoM was critical part of kensai. Unable to defend in other means against slow / paralise effects other but save which you may fail at any time. It was strong yes but on the other hand there is different weakness like darkness which you cannot ever counter but run.

Ultravision potions. Lots of paralyze effects are also blocked by clarity. As for slow and effects that clarity doesn't protect against, I'd wager a new consumable is necessary.

[flower]

There are ultravision potions? This is new to me heh.

I think with this change should be reverted change to bigbies spell linie, when target was having FoM (newly done for Kensais) then if not mind immunity effect of immobilize was added.

[DM Always This Late]

You won't get a class that doesn't have a weakness just try to avoid those situations that put your build at a disadvantage, or find a way to cope. I mean, unless you're solo grinding you should have other classes/players to work off of. PvP is a little different but the same concepts apply.

[Eters]

First of all, thanks for the constant updates and balancings and work you do.

The problem with the update is taking something and putting nothing in return. It's balance if you offer alternatives. Remove FoM and add something to compensate just don't say "well sucks to be you now go make another build with decent saves."

Part of balancing is removing and adding. Take something and give something else in return. Slightly less game breaking.

Like how perma haste was removed to be remplaced with 1 extra Apr.

If you were to make a FoM counterpart, a potion of example. That would be a good start because of now It feels rather incomplete.

The problem is that a FoM potion would work for anyone and it would be a perk to not only kensais. But if kensais were given x2 duration on potions they drink then that perhaps could bring somewhat of a balance. (Clarity potion doesn't have to be changed). Atleast make it less expensive to sustain a minimum of wardings while in PvE because in PvP that wouldn't change much.

Last thing I want to point out is that offering alternatives with potions (though mechanically possible) goes really against what a kensai stands for, as one who relies on his own abilities and enhances them rather than relying on magic and potions heavily. Whatever direction the team seems to be taking pushes it further away from that and more towards the "ignorant man who can't use modern wand technology".

[flower]

The change to kensai is not such a big thing though would be nice if thing which was part of character when you made it was, least a little, replaced with something else.

My point was. When the freedom for kensais happened, bigbies linie spells were modified. If you had FoM and failed save, and had not mind protection, then you would get effect of being immobilized. If i remember right. It seems for me as right time to revert that change.

[Diilicious]

You guys are honestly going to "balance" this game into oblivion, please stop generating player resentment by screwing people over in almost every update, you will kill the game, I have seen it happen.

[Nitro]

You guys are honestly going to "balance" this game into oblivion, please stop generating player resentment by screwing people over in almost every update, you will kill the game, I have seen it happen.

Now that's hyperbole. Arelith has been around for well over 10 years now, and it has received updates that nerfed, buffed, or rebalanced different classes and mechanics all throughout that time, and I wouldn't say the server is looking about to be killed any time soon, do you?

If anything, the fact that things are still being changed is attracting new players, or bringing old ones back when they hear that some juicy changes have happened to their old sweetheart class, and sometimes the nature of the beast is that a nerf is just necessary. Permanent freedom is OP, there's no dancing around that. Even if the rest of the kensai kit isn't OP (Which I'd say is pretty balanced now that potions are OK) the freedom part had to go or be changed in some form.

[Eters]

Permanent freedom of movement sounds OP, but once you play as a kensai yourself and see the 4560 other ways people can slaughter you with, you just grow to see that it's just a little extra cookie for you, a thing that keeps you alive for a few more rounds when you're fighting against a mage without UMD nor the ability to dispel them. a class that doesn't have UMD loses /alot/. more than you believe it does theorically, you must play one to understand what it feels like to walk around with X10 the amount of space used for potions, which cost x2, sometimes x3 times more than wands, that last less than wands, and doesn't offer everything that wands/scrolls do, Oh a nifty armor? can't use it. A beautiful silver bell? can't use it, death wards? Eh just endure it, An elemental shield? an acid sheath? Just hack through it with cheer brute power and melt. etc etc etc. which isn't me complaining about the class's obvious weaknesses, because each class has weaknesses and strengths and that's from where balance is born. but freedom of movement was not something that suddenly made kensais an unbeatable machine of doom, it was a small quality of life for them, one removed without too much consideration of the aftermath of such in my humble opinion.

[susitsu]

1. Kensai never ever stopped being a trap class. It's your choice to play it, despite the warning.

2. It should be even weaker than it currently is.

3. I always found dealing with mages pretty funny as a kensai since they just die so fast.

4. Permafreedom is honest to god cancer. Following the artefact "wiping," this may as well have been the natural course of action.

5. I suggest you run with a party.

[Eters]

Can't see too much value from your five little points there, but I will none the less try to resonate with you in a way you can understand.

1- Yes, there is a warning, but you get to see the full package, you can see your inability to use UMD, but the perks (Including FoM since that doesn't come from any potion) is what most people took the class for, along with the few extra saves and extra APR, one of those small advantages just fading away into thin air without any possible way to remplace it isn't a way to "balance" a class that already suffers from crippling weaknesses.

2- I'm just skipping this.

3- It depends on situations, the ability of the other player to actually play a mage class as they are one of the hardest to play, you can't use a situational thing as personal experience in an argument that speaks about a whole class overhaul, in which experiences may vary from person to another, the "It worked for me so it should work for you" thing is not really a good argument, nor does it benefict the current issue being discussed.

4- Artifacts were remplaced by a runic system, that in some cases can have people get even things far superior than Artifacts, it gave an alternative, one that isn't available for kensais right now, so it's not really a comparaison.

5- Please stop using that sentence, running in a party is all good and well but having a class that isn't a support one entirely cripple without help isn't "balance", partying shouldn't be a requirement to be able to do a minimum of things with your character, especially a heavy melee class, things that he used to be able to do before and suddenly became unable to do because of magical reasons, Trust me no one likes to wait infront of Cordor for X RL hours looking for a party that matches their level, the ability to do a minimum alone should always be present, with a party just amplifying your abilities and making the whole thing easier/ more efficient/ allows you to access more dangerous areas., rather than have a whole class which purpose is to be a full frontal fighter rely 24/7 on a party to just do basic things.

Now what would truly help as feedback is actual solutions and insight on how players are to deal with such a change, or if they can deal with such a change at all, More than builds there is hours of one's time put into making a story , and seeing that go for just mechanical changes isn't exactly how we all want to end our characters lives.

[Jack Oat]

Am I being trolled right now?

this

kensai is fine

some might even go so far as to say it isn't a full trap class anymore

it's kinda neet

[Barradoor]

4- Artifacts were remplaced by a runic system, that in some cases can have people get even things far superior than Artifacts, it gave an alternative, one that isn't available for kensais right now, so it's not really a comparaison.

Nothing you can make now will compare to artifacts.

seeing that go for just mechanical changes isn't exactly how we all want to end our characters lives.

If your character concept is ruined because you received a light nerf then you're either not invested in your character enough, or you're way too invested.

[susitsu]

1. yeahbutthere'sawarning

2. okay

3. Being "good" doesn't prevent big crits.

4. ???????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????

5. Just an FYI, kensai are only "better" at soloing than melee characters. Now imagine trying to play a non-kensai weapon master to 26. Kensai exist to level better than normal characters. They're literally all bad at soloing because you're not supposed to solo non-mages looking at the base game and module design.

[afreshstart]

Maybe a innate ability that gives short-duration freedom could be added instead.

[WanderingPoet]

seeing that go for just mechanical changes isn't exactly how we all want to end our characters lives.

If your character concept is ruined because you received a light nerf then you're either not invested in your character enough, or you're way too invested.

That isn't particularly polite - removing FoM from Kensai is rather like removing Stoneskin/Greater Stoneskin/Premontion from Wizards/Sorcs - it is a defence mechanism that you /can/ work around, that gets easier to work around with a party (afterall, you could still use UMD, clerics or druids to cast it, just like Kensai can still have someone else use wands, clerics, druids, or mages to cast FoM). I'm sure people would say that removing the those from a wizard wouldn't be fair for exposing the inherit squishiness of a wizard. That doesn't mean there is a fault with the player for being unhappy about losing their cookies.

5. Just an FYI, kensai are only "better" at soloing than melee characters. Now imagine trying to play a non-kensai weapon master to 26. Kensai exist to level better than normal characters. They're literally all bad at soloing because you're not supposed to solo non-mages looking at the base game and module design.

A non-kensai weapon master can use UMD to buff as well as any mage which Kensai can't do. This makes non-kensai in the harder areas significantly more effective. Also I have seen /plenty/ of non-kensai weapon masters get to level 30 in under a few months with no difficulty (Just look at who Myon's last two Coronals).

[Cortex]

A lot of problems kensai face can be solved with the right equipment, Adventurer's Armor gives +4 reflex, get some save gear when fighting mages too. Acid sheath can be countered partially with ankheg armor. If reflex isn't a problem, you can also experiment with other setups, like Northman's Armor.

Two Ring of Resistance +2, a Scarab of Protection +2 and Adventurer's Armor give +6 uni saves and +10 vs reflex.

[flower]

The main problém is when you picked kensai because it got FoM at least, as a partial protection from magic,

Then it is taken away and nothing makes up for it. So suddenly you find yourself back at the choice, and if you would do it now, you might not pick kensai. But you arent allowed to turn OFF being kensai.

I wouldn't mind a lot but when i saw how barbarians were treated, carefully tailored around high constitution (so existing characters are still able) so people wouldn't be pissed off...

When people were choosing if to go or not a kensai they did this choice based on what it had / had not.

And this:
"If your character concept is ruined because you received a light nerf then you're either not invested in your character enough, or you're way too invested."

I am sorry, but when you are taken away 1 of 3 things which were supposed to make up for no UMD and no spells you certainly cannot call it "LIGHT" nerf nor say people invested little or too much in their characters.

It would be fully fair to allow kensai characters to remove being kensais from themselves forever when these changes happen.

And yes non kensai outperforms kensai in soloing because can deal with mage npcs, stripping their sheaths and so on.

Edit: In PVE, in fact, 1 more or less attacks do not matter. It will také just one more or two more rounds to kill npc.