Kensai...Sriously?

[flower]

This is getting into snarky remarks from both sides rather quickly.

[Miaou]

Please keep this feedback thread as feedback, please. Constructive comments and suggestions are fine, griping and complaining only bogs down the purpose and derails. People who contribute to Arelith have already come in asking for suggestions (in the suggestion box) and commented on various aspects of this thread.

Keep it civil, thank you.

[flower]

I always thought a better option would be to take away the free saves and fom, but give it HD based SR. Would fit the 'eschew magic' aspect but also leave counters in the form of spells that don't obey SR.

Jesus just not that please. Because SR can be breached (lowered)-penetrated and then you are done. The saves allow you to resist spells, least. Replacing bonus saves with SR would be a big nerf imho.

Maybe adding it on top but not so neccesary, if it was made as potion would be sufficient (can be breached away).

As someone said before ultravision is already as potion so i think the only thing kensai is lacking is way to remove damage shields. Which wouldn't be that issue until tens of spellswords pop around

[BegoneThoth]

Getting someone to waste actions to breach your SR is generally a win, moreso when you have free attacks and can thus make the most use of that time.

[Twily]

So, to clarify, you want a class that is as good as more traditional options who use consumables, without having to use consumables itself?


Do you see what the balance issue might be there?

What I want is a class that isn't as good as more traditional options who are buffed, but is better than traditional options who are unbuffed.

If an unbuffed character is 1, and buffed is 9, I want a character that is always 5.


Yes, you can "just drink a potion", as I've had people tell me countless times, but what about right after you get god saved and have only 1 round before you're being attacked again, meanwhile party members are dying?
What about when you get hit by a 4+ greater dispels in the course of 1-2 rounds?
What about when the buff you're relying on suddenly wears off midfight and you have to go rebuff, but party members are counting on you to be the tank for them?
What about the inventory room carrying so many potions takes up? (less of an issue with all the loot bags I'll admit.)
What about when you're stopped spontaneously for whatever reason and suddenly find yourself caught in a PvP fight that you weren't buffed up for, and have no time to fully buff?

There's endless scenarios like this that make me prefer the consistency over potential.
I don't mind it being weaker than others at their best, and for me, the trade off is more than worth never having to worry about dispels, holds, buffing up before attacking, etc.

[susitsu]

I want to comment on people still saying kensai is weak and can't solo stuff without UMD (lol, at level 28.) In my experience, the module has been designed to firstly encourage party play, and secondly against ""power-builds""/builds that work.

In the first place, if you're trying to solo a bad build, you have your problem there. Kensai may as well double your survivability in a bad build, just as it incredibly improves your leveling rate.

For the builds that do get and use UMD before they are literally about to be level 30, if you made a kensai rogue, I then suggest you refer to rogue buffs when.

edit: for people who don't get the joke
>kensai rogue ever
>rogues and monks are just skill based, not bad

[Nitro]

So, to clarify, you want a class that is as good as more traditional options who use consumables, without having to use consumables itself?


Do you see what the balance issue might be there?

What I want is a class that isn't as good as more traditional options who are buffed, but is better than traditional options who are unbuffed.

If an unbuffed character is 1, and buffed is 9, I want a character that is always 5.

There is a problem with this though, how do you stop that character from being buffed by others? It's a team game after all, and we can't just balance a class around the idea that they'll never cooperate with others. If their bonuses stacks with buffs, they go from a 5 to a 14 on your scale, and even if their bonuses don't stack with buffs, then they're still an upgrade since they go from 5-9, without any moments of weakness a regular class would experience (I think the current setup fits in pretty well here. They're a slight upgrade to a regular melee character, whether buffed or unbuffed, but they can't reach their top potential without anyone helping to buff them, and they're not so far above as to make them blatantly overpowered).

And if we just make it so they can't have any buffs applied to them, ever, then we have a situation where they'll just be unable to go to some places since they can't get the immunities/resistances required to survive there. Imagine conversations like: "Yeah, I'd love to go crusading on the orclands with you, but I'll just get wrecked by the leveldrains so I can't." Not to mention turning them back into a 'trap' path.

If you have some idea of how it might be balanced to fit in with the rest of the classes though, I'd love to hear it. Because it sounds neat conceptually, I just can't see any way of making it work in practice.

[Dr. B]

What I want is a class that isn't as good as more traditional options who are buffed, but is better than traditional options who are unbuffed.

This is exactly where Kensais are right now. Classes also have varying niche roles, and so in certain respects they may be better at certain things than classes that are buffed, namely DPS output. That's essentially what they excel at, moreso than they did back in the days when they were a trap path.

And one of the benefits of going kensai is that, yes, if you have friends to buff you, then you are even stronger. This encourages RP and joining factions and stuff.

I just don't see what the issue is here. I see the frustration of those whose builds are disrupted, but I cannot wrap my head around why people find the old version of the path better than the newer versions. There doesn't seem to be any sound argument for it.

[Twily]

What I want is a class that, while unbuffed, isn't as good as more traditional options who are buffed, but is better than traditional options who are unbuffed

Edited to more clearly portray what I meant.

What I liked about the old one is they weren't suddenly terrible compared to their "norm" after being god saved, dispelled, etc. I like the consistency that getting a few permenant buffs, and not being able to use any other soft of buff gave.

An un-buffed kensai now is nearly, but not quite, as bad as an unbuffed other warrior, just as a buffed kensai now is nearly, but not quite, as good as a fully buffed up warrior with UMD.

Yes, It's a smaller gap in the direction I mean, but it's not nearly as drastic as I liked.

The original kensai was, undeniably, better than an unbuffed Kensai is now. Sure the new kensai has a higher peak potential than the original kensai's strength, but I preferred the consistency of always being in the middle.

50% movement speed
+4 AC
1APR
+10Disc
Freedom

Vs.

+2AC
1APR
+10Spot/Listen

[Dr. B]

What I want is a class that, while unbuffed, isn't as good as more traditional options who are buffed, but is better than traditional options who are unbuffed

It is. It gets an additional attack, in addition to some other boons, without any buffs. Buff it up, and it is even better in certain respects, but not others, namely, that despite its superb damage output and slightly higher AC, it cannot use UMD, and thus cannot re-apply it's buffs if dispelled or use offensive spells from scrolls. In that respect, it has both advantages and disadvantages in comparison to non-kensai classes. This makes it more balanced.

Does this clarify my point?

[Twily]

What I want is a class that, while unbuffed, isn't as good as more traditional options who are buffed, but is better than traditional options who are unbuffed

It is. It gets an additional attack, in addition to some other boons, without any buffs.

You're missing my point though, I want consistency.
Having tons of buffs I can use to drastically increase the power compared to a minute earlier without the buffs, that could disappear to a variety of things, isn't consistent.

I get it can't be as good as a fully buffed up current Kensai nor a fighter with UMD if it falls directly in between like the original kensai did, but I still enjoyed it for what it was. I liked how consistent it was, how unreliant on buffs it was.

Edit:
It does, but it was never unbalanced. I've never seen a single person aside from myself argue that the original kensai could be overpowered in any way at all.

[Dr. B]

First, I was referring to buffs applied by someone else, or applied by items that require UMD.

Second, why is it so essential that the kensai's decision not to use magic be mechanically enforced? It is supposed to be a conscious choice that the kensai makes, and no one is stopping you from simply refusing to use any magic items at all.

[Dr. B]

It does, but it was never unbalanced. I've never seen a single person aside from myself argue that the original kensai could be overpowered in any way at all.

I was not saying the original kensai was overpowered. That said, now that we are on this topic, I will gladly submit that it was imbalanced in that it was ridiculously weak, even with respect to the RP concept it was supposed to reflect. There is nothing stopping newer kensais from embodying that concept, except that now their strengths compensate more fairly for their drawbacks.

[Twily]

and no one is stopping you from simply refusing to use any magic items at all.

If I don't use magic with the current kensai, the character will be miserable.
As stated in my last post, the original kensai was stronger than the new kensai is unbuffed.

I liked playing unbuffed, never needing potions nor wards, so for me, the original kensai was undeiably stronger if played in that way.

The issue is the class is no longer designed to support being played like that. They're balanced around using buffs. If I don't use buffs, I may as well be taking charisma as my secondary stat on a wizard.

Mechanically enforcing a lack of ability to use magic allows giving the class more buffs without making it overpowered.


In regards to the original Kensai being weak, I don't mean to sound livid or overly confrontational, but I'll gladly duel you on PGCC on a variety of original Kensai characters I have, as I'm willing to put my money where my mouth is in that, if built and played a certain way they're nearly unstoppable. (one of my kensai has solo'd Minarous unwarded, Juggernaut/adamantine golem included, as well as was able to solo the beast with spells that are all obtainable on mundane items)

[Dr. B]

If I don't use magic with the current kensai, the character will be miserable.
As stated in my last post, the original kensai was stronger than the new kensai is unbuffed.

No, it's not. I do not know how you are supporting this claim, and, forgive me, but it is easily torn apart by looking at the facts.

1. The original kensai got an extra attack from perma-haste, but that perma-haste could be dispelled, thus removing the extra attack. The new extra attack is undispellable.

New Kensai 1, old Kensai 0.

2. The original kensai did not have a saving throw bonus, whereas the new one does.

New Kensai 2, Old Kensai 0.

3. The old kensai had a movement speed increase, but it was not great an increase as that ordinarily granted by haste. However, if a party member were to cast haste on the old kensai, it would not make the kensai faster. Old Kensai were therefore usually slower than their party members, lagging behind. This is totally ironic, since the class was supposed to be faster than everyone else. And moreover, once you get to higher levels and have a mage friend, most parties will generally be hasted through the use of mass haste, wands, potions, etc. I played a kensai up to level 27, and he was usually lagging behind the rest of his party. It was embarrasing.

New Kensai 3, old Kensai 0.

4. The old Kensai's permahaste gave it +4 AC, although, as mentioned above, this could be dispelled, and dispelling is ubiquitous on Arelith especially once you get past the mid teens. The new Kensai only gets +2 AC, but this is undispellable. Have a part member cast haste on you, and suddenly that bonus goes up to +6.

I will grant that in this single respect, the old Kensai were generally better than the new Kensai at lower levels, but that benefit quickly drops off later on. So in this respect, too, the new kensai is better overall.

And yes, this would be for the kensai to be buffed (by someone else), but I do not understand your passion for playing it unbuffed. It cannot buff itself, but there was nothing in the nature of the class forbidding it from accepting buffs from other people. Refusing them is and was always your prerogative.

New Kensai 4, old Kensai 0.

Is your point that you do not even want to rely on buffs from other people to be decent in PvE? That is an unreasonable request; you are thereby asking for the game to be too easy. If you want to go places and do things, you need to rely on protections.

5. The new Kensai now lacks Freedom of Movement. Then again, so did the Old Kensai!

New Kensai 4, old Kensai 0.

The claim that the new Kensai are worse than the old Kensai unbuffed is untrue. It's overwhelmingly contradicted by the evidence. Why you are saying this, I do not know.

Edit: I did not even see this.

In regards to the original Kensai being weak, I don't mean to sound livid or overly confrontational, but I'll gladly duel you on PGCC on a variety of original Kensai characters I have, as I'm willing to put my money where my mouth is in that, if built and played a certain way they're nearly unstoppable.

Dueling me, what, in Kensai vs. Kensai? Or dueling me as a Kensai vs any build I choose to play?

Edit 2: My Kensai also solo'd Minauros. Minauros is not that difficult.

[Twily]

1. The original kensai got an extra attack from perma-haste, but that perma-haste could be dispelled, thus removing the extra attack. The new extra attack is undispellable.

Freedom gives immunity to the haste being countered with Slow, and it hasn't been dispellable by standard dispels for well over a year.

2. The original kensai did not have a saving throw bonus, whereas the new one does.

Kensai has had the +1 save every 5 levels far before they changed it to not have haste, again over a year I believe.

3. The old kensai had a movement speed increase, but it was not great an increase as that ordinarily granted by haste. However, if a party member were to cast haste on the old kensai, it would not make the kensai faster.

This was fixed around half a year before it was changed to not use haste at all, I even wrote a bug report on it, and it was deemed not a bug.
viewtopic.php?f=12&t=9872

4. The old Kensai's permahaste gave it +4 AC, although, as mentioned above, this could be dispelled, and dispelling is ubiquitous on Arelith especially once you get past the mid teens. The new Kensai only gets +2 AC, but this is undispellable. Have a part member cast haste on you, and suddenly that bonus goes up to +6.

See above.

5. The new Kensai now lacks Freedom of Movement. Then again, so did the Old Kensai!

Kensai of one year ago had Freedom of Movement.
This is the kensai I talk about when I say "old kensai". How kensai was before August of 2017.

The claim that the new Kensai are worse than the old Kensai unbuffed is untrue. It's overwhelmingly contradicted by the evidence. Why you are saying this, I do not know.

Old Kensai:
+4 AC
+1APR
+10 Discipline
Freedom of Movement
+1Save/5levels
50% speed increase

New Kensai:
+2 AC
+1APR
+10Spot/Listen
+1Save/5levels

Which is better?

[Dr. B]

Twily, challenge accepted. I'm logging into PRGCC right now.

[flower]

Twily new kensai Is better if you use haste potion you get another attack speed increase and 4 Dodge.

[Barradoor]

Old Kensai:
+4 AC from haste
+1APR from haste
+10 Discipline
50% speed decrease

What you're actually referencing.
+1 APR
+10 Spot/Listen
+1 Save/5 Levels
+4 AC
Freedom of Movement

New Kensai:
+4AC
+1APR
+10Spot/Listen
+1Save/5levels

Now you can haste, and have another apr, 4 more ac, and movement speed.

This isn't about which one is better. This is about which one is balanced, the emphasis of the change.

What does freedom of movement do?
Freedom gives you immunity to Paralyze, Slow, Entangle. Spells including these are; Entangle, Grease, Web, Hold Person, Slow, Hold Monster, Vine Mine, Stonehold, Bigby's Grasping Hand, Bigby's Crushing Hand, along with the assassin death attacks.

Out of these spells, and effects I can think of eight of these being used by mobs in PvE, and commonly five in PvP. The saves on all of the PvP list are reflex, which, with spellcraft you are getting either +12 or +15. Level 30 adds +5, and to the average low-reflex class you are recieving +6 from pre-epic. This brings our reflex save with only +2 spellcraft gear, to 23 ~ 26. DC's on the highest effective spell from this list is an average of 39 which gives you a 20% ~ 45% of resisting. If you add +7 from gear (2 Stat, 2 +2 skill, +1 reflex) you're up to 55%~80% vs. a level 28 wizard. The next on this list adds 10% in your favor.

Now, the next effective spell which I have seen cast in PvP three times, which was, myself casting on a legacy raven druid; Stonehold at a 39 Will save, can be countered by drinking a clarity potion. You are rolling the original 20~45% resisting if you do not have a clarity potion.

What all this means? If there is a wizard in PvP and you're geared, there's a high chance you are not going to be stunned, (also you can drink a freedom potion upon seeing the spell VFX launch and get out of whatever spell hits you anyway).

In PvE, specifically solo, you are going to have a harder time in the sub-optimal areas that most "experienced" levelers don't go anyway. In the places that I know, at least, I have only encountered; Web, Hold Person, Slow, Paralyze, whilist the Paralyze is an on hit effect when the mob hits you on a 20, at an approximate dc 14 will save. One that, at level 13 you should have +8~ to resist; 70%. You've also got frost traps that paralyze you, which wouldn't have before. They are far and few between as I have seen, but in that instance, I'll concede that can, and will potentially get you killed.

Now, onto damage.
Damage wise, you have one more APR at your highest AB+2. This is evened out if the other party hastes, but, you can haste at the same time you notice theirs, and continue to out DPS them.

PvE wise, literally nothing should have changed between old and new kensai. They both gain one effective APR. Until you haste potion, or are hasted, and, in the case of being hasted, new kensai is better.

AC
You have more AC than any other melee of your class with self buffs without UMD. With UMD they gain +1 AC from Barkskin compared to your potion, so you still have a net gain of 3. This can, with improved expertise (which I have noticed quite a few people don't take for absolutely no reason) you can tank better than anything apart from a cleric, monk, palemaster, tank bard.

You have however lost 2 AC for early levels, which is certainly something that can cause an issue for sustainability.

Now that math is there.
I am noticing an issue with new kensai is that you "have" to rely on consumables to have the defense you had before.

I'd like you to notice the updates; Artifacts, pray, Spellsword, Fighter, Dragonshape. Every single one of these updates removes defense from their respective classes.

Weapon Masters could be literally immune to all spells except rolling a 1. (I knew three that were geared this well.)

They were basically immune to knockdown with epic discpline, and they had enough AC to tank anything in improved expertise. (25% chance of being knocked down by an average true striking weapon master on his first APR)

Monks, Paladins, Blackguards, could max three stats, pushing their AC/HP/AB over what weaknesses their classes have on arelith.

Dragonshape was put into the ground. It lost 12~16 AC.

Spellsword is easier to dispel now, and like a cleric without its buffs, after using GSANC; engaging in a 1v1 with nearly any melee build gets it stomped on.

All of these builds, rely on consumables, wands, potions, etc now, and before artifacts came in) except dragonshapers.

Issue A) You're weaker now. Yes, you are, to spells that are hardly used.
Issue B) You can't kill things as fast... Nope.
Issue C) Relying on consumables ruins the image of your class; Well, yes. Kensai originally weren't able to use magic at all by themselves, mages or clerics would cast on them, and then further push them higher than other builds. I can see where you have an issue with it, but, change is good. They got a big buff with the consumable update, and are a reason why freedom potions are coming soon; to the dismay of my next sorcerer.

For me, Kensai was only good when I could play a perma haste monk and zip around the island listening to https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dv13gl0a-FA

Now? My kensai's leveling has been slowed down slightly around mids. Oh well.

** I ignored damage shields because I have got my past 3 high epics to where they are whilst only seeing one. An 18 (24?) second duration acid sheathe on slithering trackers.

[Baron Saturday]

For the sake of clarity, can we call them Gen 1/Gen 2/Gen 3 kensai or something?

[Cortex]

fight me in pgcc no umd wolf totem only

also for the sake of at least posting something semi constructive, i can confirm kensai can solo plenty of epic content, including artefact dungeons.

[The Salt Elemental]

...

Here is my counter rebuttal..


But gotta go fast? D:

[FrozenSolid]

I like how Pgcc has turned into the school yard playground for Arelith where all the school yard brawls go down.

"This build sucks!"
"Does not!"
"Does too!"
"Does not!"
"Does too!"
"PGCC 4PM, FIGHT ME!"
*Kids gather around*
"Fight! Fight! Fight! Fight! Fight!"

[Peppermint]

when barradoor is the voice of reason you know things have taken a horrible turn

[Dovesong]

when barradoor is the voice of reason you know things have taken a horrible turn

+1
Also cortex since he knows kensai like most people know the alphabet.

Also also hubs played a kensai, I played a weavemaster, and it was sick. And that was first gen.