Kensai...Sriously?

[Seekeepeek]

Chill with the personal attacks...
that said...
I loved to play mith's original version of kensei to lvl 30, it was good design in my humble opinion. i had ton of fun. (+10 discipline and permanent haste)
I think the current kensei is okay if you looking for a build without UMD. so it have it's place. i used to hate it.. cause i don't like hidden freedom when i played a caster. if they had a huge green freedom buff around them i would had been okay with it, but that just look silly to have permanent around a character on a roleplay server. so freedom had to go.

i used to log on my kensei often even at lvl 30 to have fun. but... i rarely play my kensei anymore..my toys was taken away. so eh.. now it's just an other character collecting dust in my vault

[Twily]

Gen1: OldForum
Haste
Speed Reduction
-No Potions
-Raise Scrolls
-No Throwing Weapons

Haste couldn't be dispelled by the time Gen2 was reached(I don't know if it ever could be), but it could still be canceled out by a Slow spell.

Gen2: May 2016
Haste
Speed Reduction
+10 Disc
-No Potions
-No Raise Scrolls
-No Throwing Weapons

Gen3: Jul 2016
Haste
Speed Reduction (with a haste spell making them as fast as haste)
+10 Disc
+1Save/5levels
-No Potions
-No Raise Scrolls
+Throwing Weapons

Gen4: Jan 2017
Haste
+10Disc
Freedom
+1Save/5levels
-No Potions
+Raise Scrolls
+Throwing Weapons

Minor updates inbetween, giving access to feed associates potions, being able to use class/race spell-like abilities, etc

Gen5: Aug 2017
+1 APR
+2 AC
Freedom
+1Save/5level
+10 Spot/Listen (listen added first, spot added 6 days later)
+Can use potions
+Throwing Weapons

Gen6: Jan 2018
+1 APR
+2 AC
+1Save/5level
+10 Spot/Listen (listen added first, spot added 6 days later)
+Can use potions
+Throwing Weapons


Gen4 is the kensai I refer to.

Gen4 Kensai is better than Gen6 kensai when Gen6 kensai is completely unbuffed. In comparison it has more AC, the same attacks per round, more discipline, and Freedom, loosing only 10Spot/Listen.

I understand Gen6 kensai can be better than Gen4 kensai with as little as a single potion(albeit for only 30 seconds), but this behaviour is what I liked about Gen4 kensai.


Combat was simple, and consistent.
If I couldn't kill an enemy, I couldn't kill an enemy. If I died/godsaved in a fight, I didn't need to rebuff before jumping back into things. I didn't have to worry about my personally least favorite set of spells in the entire game, Dispells/Holds. If I wanted to get from Settlement A to Settlement B, I didn't have to walk at a sluggish pace nor break character by running.
There's so many things I liked about Gen4 Kensai that is lost on Gen5 and especially Gen6.



I understand that Gen4 kensai was always worse than an equivalent build that wasn't kensai who has used potions and the sort, but that didn't bother me.
I didn't care about having a high potential, I just greatly enjoyed the simplicity and consistency. There was less things to worry and think about.

But the character was still viable.
I didn't need the potions/spellsfromothers to solo clear some epic dungeons, partying with others was fine; I never was really more than a single step or two behind anyone else I played with. In many cases my kensai were put in the front line to tank for parties without any additional buffs, and it went fine.
Sure, in PvP it always fell short, but between the haste and freedom, I could always escape PvP. As someone who generally dislikes PvP fights*, I was fine with simply being able to run away.
*in the server/roleplay setting. I enjoy casual PvP sparring on PGCC(where there's no pressure/punishment for loss)


If I tried to play Gen6 kensai without any buffs(which it simply put, isn't designed/balanced around doing anymore), it would be significantly weaker than my Gen4 kensai, even if it is still a little stronger than the same build without the kensai path.

[One Two Three Five]

maybe we arent meant to be soloing.

Anyway, uh, there's no argument that invisible, permanent immunity to most of the disabling effects in the game is unbalanced, right? Is there? I don't care about 'this kensai was better than this kensai' because it's moot in terms of overall balance.

It sucks getting nerfed but invisible, permanent immunity in the way kensais had was bad. It was a bad idea, no offense to the implementing devs, and it was bad that it lasted so long, and bad that artefacts and loot ended up with the property too. No offense.

it was bad. It's gone now. Less Bad For The Server At Large at the cost of the strength of some characters that took a trap class with a disclaimer and a community reputation of being really, really, really bad and near-pointless.

[Twily]

maybe we arent meant to be soloing.

Anyway, uh, there's no argument that invisible, permanent immunity to most of the disabling effects in the game is unbalanced, right? Is there? I don't care about 'this kensai was better than this kensai' because it's moot in terms of overall balance.

It sucks getting nerfed but invisible, permanent immunity in the way kensais had was bad. It was a bad idea, no offense to the implementing devs, and it was bad that it lasted so long, and bad that artefacts and loot ended up with the property too. No offense.

it was bad. It's gone now. Less Bad For The Server At Large at the cost of the strength of some characters that took a trap class with a disclaimer and a community reputation of being really, really, really bad and near-pointless.

What confuses me about this though is that, from what I saw of posts in the time period(and even some directly in this thread), everyone thought Gen1-4 kensai was too weak, and was a trap path.

I'll admit Gen 1 was terrible, and it got better bit by bit until Gen4, but I didn't see people ever stop saying it was bad even when Gen4 was reached.
When the Gen5 update was released, everyone was saying how it was a "buff", and how my opinion is invalid if I see it as anything else.

There's a notable contradiction of views between the player base, on whether Gen4 Kensai was Overpowered and needed Nerfing, or was Underpowered.

If they wanted to remove Freedom, I wouldn't have complained, They could have just replaced it with Immunity:Slow/MovementSpeedDecrease, to prevent the class feature(haste) from being countered.

[One Two Three Five]

There's a notable contradiction of views between the player base

Y-Yeah? There's like, at least 15 different people that post on here.

[yellowcateyes]

It's highly unlikely that permanent Haste or Freedom will be returning, for reasons already elaborated upon.

[flower]

It's highly unlikely that permanent Haste or Freedom will be returning, for reasons already elaborated upon.

Free APR + Haste potion (CL10) is superior to permanent haste

[Twily]

As my concluding post in this thread, I'll just say:

I feel like: (change referring to Gen4 moving to Gen5/6)

• The change was done due to so many complaining about it being weak
• The change was made without considering why current players play kensai
• The change left no alternative for those who want the simplicity/consistency Gen4 Kensai had
• The change disregarded the fact essentially all kensai had a reason they couldn't/wouldn't use magic in their background story, forcing that to either be changed, or for them to be nerfed severely

Gen1-4 was meant as a way to play Arelith with simplicity and consistency
Gen5-6 seems to be a way to play Arelith without UMD

Both of these are good paths to have.
If Kensai isn't going back to it's roots as a means of offering simplicity and consistency* at the cost of potential, then I just hope another path shows up that current kensai can switch to in game that does offer that*.
*and it doesn't have to be haste/freedom

As is, Almost all of my characters, were built around the Gen3-4 kensai, and these changes have left them significantly weaker, if not unplayable in some cases; unless I change up their entire origin and conform to the new intention for the class, which is a play style I've never enjoyed.

[yellowcateyes]

Free APR + Haste potion (CL10) is superior to permanent haste

Yes, it is.

[Cortex]

As my concluding post in this thread, I'll just say:

I feel like: (change referring to Gen4 moving to Gen5/6)

• The change was done due to so many complaining about it being weak
• The change was made without considering why current players play kensai
• The change left no alternative for those who want the simplicity/consistency Gen4 Kensai had
• The change disregarded the fact essentially all kensai had a reason they couldn't/wouldn't use magic in their background story, forcing that to either be changed, or for them to be nerfed severely

Gen1-4 was meant as a way to play Arelith with simplicity and consistency
Gen5-6 seems to be a way to play Arelith without UMD

Both of these are good paths to have.
If Kensai isn't going back to it's roots as a means of offering simplicity and consistency* at the cost of potential, then I just hope another path shows up that current kensai can switch to in game that does offer that*.
*and it doesn't have to be haste/freedom

As is, Almost all of my characters, were built around the Gen3-4 kensai, and these changes have left them significantly weaker, if not unplayable in some cases; unless I change up their entire origin and conform to the new intention for the class, which is a play style I've never enjoyed.

A design choice doesn't necessarily mean it's good for the server or player.

[Barradoor]

This isn't about which one is better. This is about which one is balanced, the emphasis of the change.

when barradoor is the voice of reason you know things have taken a horrible turn

= ^ )

Gen4 Kensai is better than Gen6 kensai when Gen6 kensai is completely unbuffed. In comparison it has more AC, the same attacks per round, more discipline, and Freedom, [losing] only 10Spot/Listen.

2 AC pre-haste, which by my usual leveling route and the times I can acquire gear will matter in the following levels

Level 3 - in default fighter gear; (large shield, 6/1 armor) and a +1 weapon, and expertise, I am able to complete the sewers in the Underdark, along with quests to help myself get fullplate and a tower shield. This is even easier on the surface. If I didn't have +2 AC I would need a fullplate to make up for it, so I would be able to buy less kits. This only mattered for the first hour of gameplay.

Level 4 - Now that I am equipped in fullplate and a tower shield after a quest, light pieces of strength gear due to magical items and a lucky encounter with an enchanter; I am currently able to tank bonefields and derro in expertise, with a decent clear speed. The +2 AC is actually putting me over the safe range (AB+1d20 AC) on everything besides bosses.

Level 13 - Slime Temple is always an issue for characters at mid level to tank, and be able to clear. In Full Plate +2 I got in a shop, along with +1 AC Boots, a +1 Tower Shield, shield potions (5 minute duration), and haste potions for boss I have never ran into a place in which the +2 ac has mattered.

Level 18 - Orclands. Everything here other than archers has bad AB. You will hit almost everything in improved expertise.

Level 22- Epic Dungeons and beyond. This is where soloing essentially stops if you want to do anything other than orclands, for nearly all epic level melee builds. Stellen Varg for example, a character we all know and love, did 24-30 three times in orclands, getting about 8-12 xp a mob. I will take Minarous for example as it has been used several times prior to your last post.

Minarous has the succubus archers with negative energy burst arrows, to which Negative Energy Potions now make you immune to, as before where you'd be tanking those and without a doubt, eventually roll low, and without the use of restoration potions, you could only -pray this off once every 12 minutes.

Acid Rain is taken care of by a simple 5/- essence.

The highest AB I recall being there is 40 meaning a 60 AC makes you essentially immune.

+11 Full Plate
+10 Base
+10 Improved Expertise
+6 Tower Shield
+3 Helmet
+3 Barkskin Potion
+3/6 Tumble
+2 Armor Skin
+2 Kensai AC
+2 Fighter Bonus or Barbarian Bonus
+1 Dexterity AC
+1 AC Boots,
+1 Mage Armor Potion

This brings you to 57/60 AC. You are either being hit on a 5% chance (20) with a further .025% chance of being crit (20 on threat roll)

Or you are being hit on a 15% chance (18, 19, 20) with a 1.5% chance of being crit (threat roll of 18, 19, 20 along with the initial roll of 19, 20)

Haste potions bring you the availability to drop improved expertise to standard to add 5% and 1.25% respectively to the above mentioned statistics.

Prior to this, soloing, you had
+11 Full Plate
+10 Base
+10 Improved Expertise
+6 Tower Shield
+3 Helmet
+3/6 Tumble
+2 Armor Skin
+4 Kensai haste AC
+2 Fighter Bonus
+1 Dexterity AC
+1 AC Boots

53/56 AC. That was it; You were much worse in "gen 4" as a tank in the place you mentioned being able to solo before. You also in "gen 4" could not remove the succubus negative energy drain besides once every 18 minutes.

I understand Gen6 kensai can be better than Gen4 kensai with as little as a single potion(albeit for only 30 seconds), but this behaviour is what I liked about Gen4 kensai.

If I tried to play Gen6 kensai without any buffs(which it simply put, isn't designed/balanced around doing anymore), it would be significantly weaker than my Gen4 kensai, even if it is still a little stronger than the same build without the kensai path.

Gen 6 better is better than Gen 4 Kensai in general. I have provided reasons behind this, I believe. -2 AC doesn't actually matter, there are if I recall 3~4 mobs in my leveling areas that knockdown; that you should be AC tanking anyway, freedom was explained in my last post.

Combat was simple, and consistent.
If I couldn't kill an enemy, I couldn't kill an enemy. If I died/godsaved in a fight, I didn't need to rebuff before jumping back into things. I didn't have to worry about my personally least favorite set of spells in the entire game, Dispells/Holds. If I wanted to get from Settlement A to Settlement B, I didn't have to walk at a sluggish pace nor break character by running.
There's so many things I liked about Gen4 Kensai that is lost on Gen5 and especially Gen6.

WARNING HIGH LEVEL MECHANICS BELOW

Oh and by the way, the things you couldn't kill before, statistically, you'll now be able to kill them.

[flower]

"The highest AB I recall being there is 40 meaning a 60 AC makes you essentially immune."


I got pwned by numerous NPCs which could ever hit me on roll of natural 20 only and quess what i had been getting like 2 critcs per round on natural 20s even never say that AC makes you immune...though i quess npcs do cheat because when i need 20 to hit something i keep missing into oblivion.

[Jack Oat]

I got pwned by numerous NPCs which could ever hit me on roll of natural 20 only and quess what i had been getting like 2 critcs per round on natural 20s even never say that AC makes you immune...though i quess npcs do cheat because when i need 20 to hit something i keep missing into oblivion.

Please do not confuse RNGesus hating you for actual math/statistics.

[dallion43]

Kensai ,currently, allows you to skip the mandatory 3 lvl dips that have UMD and take 3 lvls of something that will strengthen your build. It adds 20% damage on top of any melee build plus +6 saves.

You trade this for breach wand and 50% II wand, mostly, currently.

Properly geared and build kensai are more powerful then similar build melee alternative by minimum 20% dps.(more due to full ab apr).

It is hard to compare *until 30 lvl* kensai vs*, or PvE kensai vs* *until lvl 30*

Balance wise you are the dps of the party, PvE or PvP.
If you looked for a good all-round solo, kensai was the wrong choice from the get go.
Btw, introducing a great all-round solo immediately kills the rest of the builds on the spot, killing the essence of party play.
.....

Yes people that lvled a spesific build desinged for built in Pof are in a bad place now, I know how it feels since I allready dropped 3 characters on Arelith due to become less relevant after an update, and many many more on previous shards.

Please consider introducing a mundane Pof potion for those people, and for the rest of us ).

-----
Edit:
Kensai ,currently, allows you to skip the mandatory 3 lvl dips that have UMD
----
I ment it is a optional side-effect of kensai, English is not my first language :p

[BegoneThoth]

I wouldn't say it "allows" you to skip UMD, it's what you take to make a non umd melee less bad.

[Scurvy Cur]

I got pwned by numerous NPCs which could ever hit me on roll of natural 20 only and quess what i had been getting like 2 critcs per round on natural 20s even never say that AC makes you immune...though i quess npcs do cheat because when i need 20 to hit something i keep missing into oblivion.

Please do not confuse RNGesus hating you for actual math/statistics.

Worth noting as well that MithSai would have died equally spectacularly to the same bad string of RNG, provided of course they hadn’t already run into an Erinyes archer, which was basically a death sentence for MithSai.

[RedGiant]

I think all the number crunching has missed some salient points.

There was tremendous defensive potential in the sheer character speed of early kensai. There was also somewhat moderate defensive potential with later kensai and FoM. Finally, there was also the blissful convenience of the class before it became a strange version of the potion-chugging sword and board. Many of us built around these facts, and no matter what numbers you crunch, these aspects are now probably gone forever, as yellowcateyes has succinctly stated.

I was one who suggested awhile back perhaps we might need to back off the immunity granting items, so this isn't so much about FoM for me, as it is about a class then never really seems to settle, and what is it exactly?

Kensai was also conceived before things like the fighter class boons. Now if you wanted to play a straight 30th lvl fighter, I'm almost not sure why you wouldn't take kensai, unless you had some sort of oddness planned (i.e. a crossbow specialist?).

I would just love to see the mechanic settled. I'm not sure what it is now. I personally don't like the latest version(s) and they don't "do" what I planned them to. If mine were 26+ I would roll them all. If rebuilds were offered, I might be able to salvage one or two. But...meh...as it stands now mine too are in the dustbin.

[Barradoor]

I think all the number crunching has missed some salient points. There was tremendous defensive potential in the sheer character speed of early kensai.

You can spend 3 seconds to drink a haste potion now to have this movement speed once again, these things being a measly 212 gold (iirc) from several merchants on the server. In regards to PvE you can literally run away from any mob with the same movement speed as you safely unless they have a ranged weapon.

There was also somewhat moderate defensive potential with later kensai and FoM.

I literally gave proof and examples of the FoM effectiveness in both PvE and PvP; losing it hurts a little bit, I conceded, but it is certainly not an end all.

Finally, there was also the blissful convenience of the class before it became a strange version of the potion-chugging sword and board.

Haste Potion; duration 30 seconds
Barkskin Potion; duration 18 minutes
Strength Potion; duration 18 or 90 minutes
Shield Potion; duration 5 minutes.

Meaning over an hour of gameplay, and with my tested time of hitting a boss every 10 minutes at lvl 13 that required a haste potion for an extra safe clear, you're drinking

6 Haste Potions
4 Barkskin (Rounded up)
4 Strength Potions
12 Shield Potions. (Unless only using before a boss or hard encounter).

26 potions over the course of an hour, I really don't see the issue that you are all posing. You are not chugging potions. You are doing exactly what other w̶e̶a̶p̶o̶n̶ ̶m̶a̶s̶t̶e̶r̶ literally any build have to do to solo level (ward), in addition, you are also hitting once more than them.

You have more damage.
You have more saves.
You have more AC.

You lost permanent freedom that, as stated in my earlier post, makes little to no difference in "proper" PvE.

What I am trying to understand from the 'average' post on the 'other side' of this argument is this.

Many of us built around these facts, and no matter what numbers you crunch, these aspects are now probably gone forever, as yellowcateyes has succinctly stated.

How exactly have you built around having more AC, AB, and Saves that has been effected by this? The potions additive is a buff.
If you can somehow explain to me with statistics how it is anything but I'd be interested.

To be honest it seems like you are trying to pin your bad build on the server balancing as opposed to what it is. A bad build.

But Barradoor, some of us don't plan our characters out from level 3-30.
Godspeed then my sweet summer child, if this is the case, you don't belong in a mechanics thread.

But Barradoor I don't want to do as well as that guy with a "good" build because I want to be special, not a power-building pride-gaming PvP hungry jerk like he is.
Have you ever tried playing one of those builds past level 20?

I cannot in any safe state of mind, feasibly understand how being able to use potions is a bad thing mechanically.

But Barradoor, Kensai aren't supposed to drink potions, it ruins the vision of my class.
Ok. I understand your vision for the class.

Mechanically before potions, compared to old kensai the only thing you've lost is 2 AC and 50% movement speed. Sorry that you no longer have the equivalent to 15 monk levels for free.

Roleplay wise, the only thing I've found externally on Kensai is this http://www.dandwiki.com/wiki/Kensei_(3.5e_Class) and it is very far from anti-magic. It's a weapon master.

[Improv]

"I liked my character the way they were and this change makes them radically different" isn't something that be argued with stats and numbers. I'm thinking more the original kensai change here (and I think those haste kensai should have just been grandfathered in when kensai 2.0 came out myself).

And this is a feedback section not builds and mechanics, so if someone doesn't want to argue that way they still "belong". Though I think the two sides here are coming from such different places I can't imagine one ever convincing the other.

[One Two Three Five]

I mean, yes. One side is coming from 'This is a good change for the overall health of the server, provably, mathematically, inarguably.' And the other side is 'my character is a bit weaker and I don't care if it makes the server better.'

the former side is also the dev team, though, so. this is kind of moot. suggest something else if you think kensai need something to replace freedom. We don't need to argue for another 5 pages on which trap version of which trap class was or is better. The numbers are there.

[RedGiant]

Okay, how bout this? I return to the original OP.

End Kensai. The class as it is, no longer makes much RP sense.

Balance wise, it was conceived before the hefty class bonuses to fighter, monk, etc., some of which also now have quite solid pure class perks. In many pure class examples (especially fighter and monk), Kensai is now an unbalancing perk that costs a character in many cases literally nothing. In these two pure class examples, a str-based fighter will do better with thrown weapons and monk will throw shuriekens with the amaze monk progressions. This is now a free upgrade at literally no cost.

[Ebonstar]

If I don't use magic with the current kensai, the character will be miserable.
As stated in my last post, the original kensai was stronger than the new kensai is unbuffed.

No, it's not. I do not know how you are supporting this claim, and, forgive me, but it is easily torn apart by looking at the facts.

1. The original kensai got an extra attack from perma-haste, but that perma-haste could be dispelled, thus removing the extra attack. The new extra attack is undispellable.

New Kensai 1, old Kensai 0.

2. The original kensai did not have a saving throw bonus, whereas the new one does.

New Kensai 2, Old Kensai 0.

3. The old kensai had a movement speed increase, but it was not great an increase as that ordinarily granted by haste. However, if a party member were to cast haste on the old kensai, it would not make the kensai faster. Old Kensai were therefore usually slower than their party members, lagging behind. This is totally ironic, since the class was supposed to be faster than everyone else. And moreover, once you get to higher levels and have a mage friend, most parties will generally be hasted through the use of mass haste, wands, potions, etc. I played a kensai up to level 27, and he was usually lagging behind the rest of his party. It was embarrasing.

New Kensai 3, old Kensai 0.

4. The old Kensai's permahaste gave it +4 AC, although, as mentioned above, this could be dispelled, and dispelling is ubiquitous on Arelith especially once you get past the mid teens. The new Kensai only gets +2 AC, but this is undispellable. Have a part member cast haste on you, and suddenly that bonus goes up to +6.

I will grant that in this single respect, the old Kensai were generally better than the new Kensai at lower levels, but that benefit quickly drops off later on. So in this respect, too, the new kensai is better overall.

And yes, this would be for the kensai to be buffed (by someone else), but I do not understand your passion for playing it unbuffed. It cannot buff itself, but there was nothing in the nature of the class forbidding it from accepting buffs from other people. Refusing them is and was always your prerogative.

New Kensai 4, old Kensai 0.

Is your point that you do not even want to rely on buffs from other people to be decent in PvE? That is an unreasonable request; you are thereby asking for the game to be too easy. If you want to go places and do things, you need to rely on protections.

5. The new Kensai now lacks Freedom of Movement. Then again, so did the Old Kensai!

New Kensai 4, old Kensai 0.

The claim that the new Kensai are worse than the old Kensai unbuffed is untrue. It's overwhelmingly contradicted by the evidence. Why you are saying this, I do not know.

Edit: I did not even see this.

In regards to the original Kensai being weak, I don't mean to sound livid or overly confrontational, but I'll gladly duel you on PGCC on a variety of original Kensai characters I have, as I'm willing to put my money where my mouth is in that, if built and played a certain way they're nearly unstoppable.

Dueling me, what, in Kensai vs. Kensai? Or dueling me as a Kensai vs any build I choose to play?

Edit 2: My Kensai also solo'd Minauros. Minauros is not that difficult.

ill settle this with one statement, permahaste was never dispelled not did you drop the atttack or ac that you now have lost and now also are prone to basic movement spells stops

just because you didnt see the icon in the gui doesnt mean your haste wasnt there

if you set my kensai knight back to pre speed removal he will wipe your new kensai off the map in short order

why and how you might want to know, because pre speed and disc removal, my kensai knight was always ready for a fight, while your new kensai when hes done listening to people sneak, will be lying on the floor before he can get fully buffed, whereas the old style kensai is looking for his next foe in the fight

[Barradoor]

because pre speed and disc removal, my kensai knight was always ready for a fight, while your new kensai when hes done listening to people sneak, will be lying on the floor before he can get fully buffed, whereas the old style kensai is looking for his next foe in the fight

As I've made clear, new kensai vs. old kensai is a difference between -2 AC before a 3 second action, as well as the 50% bonus speed.

10 Discipline, provided you are geared and if you take the epic discipline feat, which, with some of the mentions of pure class builds, you definitely have room for, there's no reason for you to be on the ground unless you try to face-tank a true-striking weapon master or other high ab build.

[Ebonstar]

because pre speed and disc removal, my kensai knight was always ready for a fight, while your new kensai when hes done listening to people sneak, will be lying on the floor before he can get fully buffed, whereas the old style kensai is looking for his next foe in the fight

As I've made clear, new kensai vs. old kensai is a difference between -2 AC before a 3 second action, as well as the 50% bonus speed.

10 Discipline, provided you are geared and if you take the epic discipline feat, which, with some of the mentions of pure class builds, you definitely have room for, there's no reason for you to be on the ground unless you try to face-tank a true-striking weapon master or other high ab build.

its not 2 ac for a 3 second action, its 2 ac and movement increase to where I can hit your gen 6 kensai three times and crit possible each time rendering your gen 6 dead in those 3 seconds.

example being minmir giants a group of four could be down with maybe two rounds per giant now take four rounds per meaning they have exponential chances to kill you before you can get to them.

the permahaste ac bonus and attack bonus gave more than simple numbers because with a WM build you could break the engagement and re aquire your targets from another angle to keep mass foes at bay. lack of speed and ac and now having to chug potions which grant automatic AOO are a death sentence. But everyone keeps saying but at level 30 you get plus 6 saves. that is irrelavent because who cares what you have at level 30 when your shredded even with parties at level 24.
you dont have plus 6 saves at any level besides 30, so everyone saying but you have this and this and this doesnt help. everyone with all their math keeps saying what is available at level 30 but seem to be forgetting the 26 levels prior to level 30.
Balance isnt supposed to be for max level, but for the whole course of a characters life.

and again my kensai as gen 4 will wipe in single combat a gen 6 in short order, why, because of the speed and spell immunities and no need to chug potions that grant automatic AOO, which would really make the gen 6 be in a bad way.

[dallion43]

Emm, just out of my curiosity;
at lvl 24 you supposedly get +5 saves...is this that different from +6?:P

because pre speed and disc removal, my kensai knight was always ready for a fight, while your new kensai when hes done listening to people sneak, will be lying on the floor before he can get fully buffed, whereas the old style kensai is looking for his next foe in the fight

Out of more curiosity :p, how did +2ac and 50% speed constant helped against sneekers more then +10 to relevant skill will? +2ac made a difference vs flat footed, or you could outrun the hasted sneaker?