Kensai...Sriously?

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flower
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Re: Kensai...Sriously?

Post by flower » Sat Jan 06, 2018 9:23 am

Ebonstar i wanna see how you kill my gen6 kensai with your 5 attacks in 3 secs as mine has 8 attacks per round which means I get 3 attacks in first flurry...you just write full nonsense gen6 is much stronger than your permanent hasted kensai. More ac more attacks. How the hell can old kensai be stronger? One of us two cannot do basic math.

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Re: Kensai...Sriously?

Post by Durvayas » Sat Jan 06, 2018 10:09 am

I had a kensai before the permanent haste was removed. A monk. A Kensai monk's undispellable( and no reapplications required) permahaste on top of their monk speed was their greatest asset.

Unparalleled mobility. Some would call this a 'Sanic' build and make 'gotta go fast' memes.

This kensai was the best kind of spy; able to keep up with anyone in stealth easily, with no need to break stealth to reapply haste to keep up with someone who was running

My particular kensai was a courier and a spy. That was their niche. They immediately became worse at both when haste was removed. They also lost their discipline bonus. For a character built around being able to escape quickly, not getting tagged by that IKD is imperative. They could no longer leave the field as quickly as I'd like, nor sneak as effectively.

The character is in the dustbin now. What I built it for in terms of thematics and intent was destroyed when Gen 5 Kensai happened. I have no intentions of making another kensai until no tweaks of any kind happen to the path for at least a year. Theres little point, in my mind, in investing in a class for thematics if they are liable to change as often, or as drastically.
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Re: Kensai...Sriously?

Post by Barradoor » Sat Jan 06, 2018 10:53 am

Ebonstar wrote:
its not 2 ac for a 3 second action, its 2 ac and movement increase to where I can hit your gen 6 kensai three times and crit possible each time rendering your gen 6 dead in those 3 seconds.
It is 2 AC and 50% movement as I stated in the post above, but at this point I highly doubt you are even reading any of what I have to say as you continue to reference things I have already adressed. But for the sake of argument, and to sate my boredom, I am going to give you more math.

In the case of my current "optimal" level 26 Kensai Weapon Master she currently has 442 HP un-buffed, along with 39/44/49 AC walking around, and we'll take her standing AB into account, at 42(44 with kensai). If you were to attack me with a kensai of the same build, with "Gen 4" and "gen 6" these are the combat stats below.

Your Kensai (gen 4) would have
41/46/51 AC
44/44/39/34/29 AB (-5/-10)
442 HP
5APR
1-6+18 (13-20 / x3) criticals meaning you hit for 31.5 - 107 a hit.

[Expertise calculated]
With this in mind your attack's have a
75% chance to hit with a 56% chance to critical hit on your first two APR.
50% chance to hit with a 25% chance to critical hit on your third APR.
25% chance to hit with a 12.5% chance to critical hit on your forth APR.
5% chance to hit with a 1.25% chance to critical hit on your fifth APR.

My Kensai (gen 6) would have
39/44/49 AC
44/44/39/34/29 AB (-5/-10)
442 HP
1-6+18+6+4 (13-20 / x3) criticals, meaning I hit for 31.5 - 107 a hit.

[Expertise Calculated]
With this in mind my attack's have a
75% chance to hit with a 56% chance to critical hit on my first two APR.
50% chance to hit with a 25% chance to critical hit on my third APR.
25% chance to hit with a 12.5% chance to critical hit on my forthAPR.
5% chance to hit with a 1.25% chance to critical hit on my fifth APR.

Even if you were able to hit every attack within 3 seconds (3 attacks) and, take the average critical of now 2/3 hitting based on flat-foot AC, you are dealing 50% of my health pool in which I will be able to -pray with no issue, and further attack you with the following.

[Expertise Calculated]
75% chance to hit with a 56% chance to critical hit on my first three APR.
50% chance to hit with a 25% chance to critical hit on my forth APR.
25% chance to hit with a 12.5% chance to critical hit on my fifth APR.
5% chance to hit with a 1.25% chance to critical hit on my sixth APR.

So, in essence. No. You are not killing an identical build comparing gen 4 and gen 6 before they get their haste potion off, which brings their AC now 2 above yours. +4 AC from its original form, reducing your chances to hit by 20%. In the terms of raw numbers, the latter is better.

But Barradoor, an attack of opportunity
The first haste potion I drink will nine times out of ten not be in range of your AoO range. However, if I'm not, it is either going to drop me 7% of my health pool, or 20%, and in PvP, setting up my defense will put me in a much easier place to kill you. A simple haste potion and barkskin potion will put me up 7 AC from my original calculations, allowing my version of the kensai the ability to easily trade with you, reducing your chance to hit by 35% and your chance to crit by 40%.

Round 1: I use a haste and barkskin potion, you hit me for 28% HP on average after closing distance. You are now doing an average of 7%-20% HP a round, whilst I maintain 21-80% a round. The following format will be used for HP pools. [Gen 4] (Gen 6)

Round 1: [100] (72)
Round 2: [79] (65)
Round 3: [58] (58)
Round 4: [58] (51)
Round 5: [37] (44)
Round 6: [16] (37)
Round 7: [2] (23)
Round 8: [Dead] (23)
Round 9: [Dead] (23)
Round 10: [Dead] (23)

I would like you to note that I did this before calculating any criticals, in which mine has an average of 4 per round, while yours has 1, when I round the percentage up.

To put things simply. No, you would not kill me, even in the first round whilst I drink potions, assuming a 3 second time between reaction, you clicking my character, and your PC making it to mine, and then, finally, them engaging.
Ebonstar wrote:example being minmir giants a group of four could be down with maybe two rounds per giant now take four rounds per meaning they have exponential chances to kill you before you can get to them.
With a barkskin potion, you are now at a +1 AC vs. old Kensai.
Your damage per round, as shown above, should be the exact same. I don't know how you are figuring you've lost damage, and I'm fairly convinced you are making things up.
Ebonstar wrote:the permahaste ac bonus and attack bonus gave more than simple numbers because with a WM build you could break the engagement and re aquire your targets from another angle to keep mass foes at bay. lack of speed and ac and now having to chug potions which grant automatic AOO are a death sentence.
If you are drinking potions in the middle of monsters, you have a serious mechanical problem. Please see my potion durations I have mentioned before. (You do not need to haste, at all for these trash mobs, if you are trying to argue what if haste wears off).
Ebonstar wrote:But everyone keeps saying but at level 30 you get plus 6 saves. that is irrelavent because who cares what you have at level 30 when your shredded even with parties at level 24.
you dont have plus 6 saves at any level besides 30, so everyone saying but you have this and this and this doesnt help. everyone with all their math keeps saying what is available at level 30 but seem to be forgetting the 26 levels prior to level 30.
Balance isnt supposed to be for max level, but for the whole course of a characters life.
Kensai receives 1 unisave per 5 character levels. To learn more about your class please go to http://wiki.arelith.com/Kensai
Ebonstar wrote:and again my kensai as gen 4 will wipe in single combat a gen 6 in short order, why, because of the speed and spell immunities and no need to chug potions that grant automatic AOO, which would really make the gen 6 be in a bad way.
no
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Sockss
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Re: Kensai...Sriously?

Post by Sockss » Sat Jan 06, 2018 12:37 pm

Monks are still immune to IKD with enough monk levels.

Hell, monks are immune to melee entirely with enough monk levels.

You don't need permanent haste to add to the exploitative problem.
Thankfully this team is no longer being used.

Sockss#5567 for nwn mechanics questions.

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Re: Kensai...Sriously?

Post by Ebonstar » Sat Jan 06, 2018 10:58 pm

flower wrote:Ebonstar i wanna see how you kill my gen6 kensai with your 5 attacks in 3 secs as mine has 8 attacks per round which means I get 3 attacks in first flurry...you just write full nonsense gen6 is much stronger than your permanent hasted kensai. More ac more attacks. How the hell can old kensai be stronger? One of us two cannot do basic math.
because my WM mix will crit of which each hit will be for around 140 damage, and you will still have to buff up
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Re: Kensai...Sriously?

Post by Ebonstar » Sat Jan 06, 2018 11:06 pm

Barradoor wrote:
Ebonstar wrote:
its not 2 ac for a 3 second action, its 2 ac and movement increase to where I can hit your gen 6 kensai three times and crit possible each time rendering your gen 6 dead in those 3 seconds.
It is 2 AC and 50% movement as I stated in the post above, but at this point I highly doubt you are even reading any of what I have to say as you continue to reference things I have already adressed. But for the sake of argument, and to sate my boredom, I am going to give you more math.

In the case of my current "optimal" level 26 Kensai Weapon Master she currently has 442 HP un-buffed, along with 39/44/49 AC walking around, and we'll take her standing AB into account, at 42(44 with kensai). If you were to attack me with a kensai of the same build, with "Gen 4" and "gen 6" these are the combat stats below.

Your Kensai (gen 4) would have
41/46/51 AC
44/44/39/34/29 AB (-5/-10)
442 HP
5APR
1-6+18 (13-20 / x3) criticals meaning you hit for 31.5 - 107 a hit. incorrect 1-10 damage meaning my crits are 140 to 160, and your buff time is where you lose because mine doesnt have to buff to rip you for over 400 damage

[Expertise calculated]
With this in mind your attack's have a
75% chance to hit with a 56% chance to critical hit on your first two APR.
50% chance to hit with a 25% chance to critical hit on your third APR.
25% chance to hit with a 12.5% chance to critical hit on your forth APR.
5% chance to hit with a 1.25% chance to critical hit on your fifth APR.

My Kensai (gen 6) would have
39/44/49 AC
44/44/39/34/29 AB (-5/-10)
442 HP
1-6+18+6+4 (13-20 / x3) criticals, meaning I hit for 31.5 - 107 a hit.


[Expertise Calculated]
With this in mind my attack's have a
75% chance to hit with a 56% chance to critical hit on my first two APR.
50% chance to hit with a 25% chance to critical hit on my third APR.
25% chance to hit with a 12.5% chance to critical hit on my forthAPR.
5% chance to hit with a 1.25% chance to critical hit on my fifth APR.

Even if you were able to hit every attack within 3 seconds (3 attacks) and, take the average critical of now 2/3 hitting based on flat-foot AC, you are dealing 50% of my health pool in which I will be able to -pray with no issue, and further attack you with the following. pray gives me even more AOO, your math is wonderful but because we have no way of actually doing a toe to toe, you truly cannot see the difference in gameplay over math

[Expertise Calculated]
75% chance to hit with a 56% chance to critical hit on my first three APR.
50% chance to hit with a 25% chance to critical hit on my forth APR.
25% chance to hit with a 12.5% chance to critical hit on my fifth APR.
5% chance to hit with a 1.25% chance to critical hit on my sixth APR.

So, in essence. No. You are not killing an identical build comparing gen 4 and gen 6 before they get their haste potion off, which brings their AC now 2 above yours. +4 AC from its original form, reducing your chances to hit by 20%. In the terms of raw numbers, the latter is better.

But Barradoor, an attack of opportunity
The first haste potion I drink will nine times out of ten not be in range of your AoO range. However, if I'm not, it is either going to drop me 7% of my health pool, or 20%, and in PvP, setting up my defense will put me in a much easier place to kill you. A simple haste potion and barkskin potion will put me up 7 AC from my original calculations, allowing my version of the kensai the ability to easily trade with you, reducing your chance to hit by 35% and your chance to crit by 40%.

Round 1: I use a haste and barkskin potion, you hit me for 28% HP on average after closing distance. You are now doing an average of 7%-20% HP a round, whilst I maintain 21-80% a round. The following format will be used for HP pools. [Gen 4] (Gen 6)

Round 1: [100] (72)
Round 2: [79] (65)
Round 3: [58] (58)
Round 4: [58] (51)
Round 5: [37] (44)
Round 6: [16] (37)
Round 7: [2] (23)
Round 8: [Dead] (23)
Round 9: [Dead] (23)
Round 10: [Dead] (23)

I would like you to note that I did this before calculating any criticals, in which mine has an average of 4 per round, while yours has 1, when I round the percentage up.

To put things simply. No, you would not kill me, even in the first round whilst I drink potions, assuming a 3 second time between reaction, you clicking my character, and your PC making it to mine, and then, finally, them engaging.
Ebonstar wrote:example being minmir giants a group of four could be down with maybe two rounds per giant now take four rounds per meaning they have exponential chances to kill you before you can get to them.
With a barkskin potion, you are now at a +1 AC vs. old Kensai.
Your damage per round, as shown above, should be the exact same. I don't know how you are figuring you've lost damage, and I'm fairly convinced you are making things up.
Ebonstar wrote:the permahaste ac bonus and attack bonus gave more than simple numbers because with a WM build you could break the engagement and re aquire your targets from another angle to keep mass foes at bay. lack of speed and ac and now having to chug potions which grant automatic AOO are a death sentence.
If you are drinking potions in the middle of monsters, you have a serious mechanical problem. Please see my potion durations I have mentioned before. (You do not need to haste, at all for these trash mobs, if you are trying to argue what if haste wears off).
Ebonstar wrote:But everyone keeps saying but at level 30 you get plus 6 saves. that is irrelavent because who cares what you have at level 30 when your shredded even with parties at level 24.
you dont have plus 6 saves at any level besides 30, so everyone saying but you have this and this and this doesnt help. everyone with all their math keeps saying what is available at level 30 but seem to be forgetting the 26 levels prior to level 30.
Balance isnt supposed to be for max level, but for the whole course of a characters life.
Kensai receives 1 unisave per 5 character levels. To learn more about your class please go to http://wiki.arelith.com/Kensai
Ebonstar wrote:and again my kensai as gen 4 will wipe in single combat a gen 6 in short order, why, because of the speed and spell immunities and no need to chug potions that grant automatic AOO, which would really make the gen 6 be in a bad way.
no
and again because your gen6 relies on magic is why he or she would be toast before you get all your potions up
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Re: Kensai...Sriously?

Post by flower » Sat Jan 06, 2018 11:10 pm

Ebonstar wrote:
flower wrote:Ebonstar i wanna see how you kill my gen6 kensai with your 5 attacks in 3 secs as mine has 8 attacks per round which means I get 3 attacks in first flurry...you just write full nonsense gen6 is much stronger than your permanent hasted kensai. More ac more attacks. How the hell can old kensai be stronger? One of us two cannot do basic math.
because my WM mix will crit of which each hit will be for around 140 damage, and you will still have to buff up

MY WM will crit on 110+ dmg each crit and will swing 8 times a round, 4 times at full AB. She can fight without buffs pretty well, and drinking haste will be done before you close.

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Re: Kensai...Sriously?

Post by Ebonstar » Sat Jan 06, 2018 11:14 pm

flower wrote:
Ebonstar wrote:
flower wrote:Ebonstar i wanna see how you kill my gen6 kensai with your 5 attacks in 3 secs as mine has 8 attacks per round which means I get 3 attacks in first flurry...you just write full nonsense gen6 is much stronger than your permanent hasted kensai. More ac more attacks. How the hell can old kensai be stronger? One of us two cannot do basic math.
because my WM mix will crit of which each hit will be for around 140 damage, and you will still have to buff up

MY WM will crit on 110+ dmg each crit and will swing 8 times a round, 4 times at full AB. She can fight without buffs pretty well, and drinking haste will be done before you close.
key is you still have to drink haste which is a 3 second action
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Re: Kensai...Sriously?

Post by MalKalz » Sat Jan 06, 2018 11:21 pm

This stopped being a feedback thread awhile ago and is now just a “my build is better than yours thread” where we are trying to flex our muscles. I will be locking it.

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