Clerics Need a Minor Buff

[High Primate]

I've maintained for a while now that cleric is only dominant in a meta where nobody knows wtf they're doing. That is, less and less, an apt description for Arelith. This is mostly people waking up to the fact that cleric is okay, but not spectacular.

That latter point basically sums up my thoughts. To people with more advanced knowledge of the game they (battleclerics) are one of the weaker melee classes out there (by no means the weakest), and the things for which they are thought to be OP are actually very easy countered: Gsanc can be stripped (along with their other wards) and WoF can be removed in three seconds. At a superficial glance, they seem very powerful, but when you think about their weaknesses, and then think about the weaknesses of other melee classes, they just aren't all that great. In my opinion, their lackluster, short-term damage output isn't worth their drawbacks.

[BegoneThoth]

Spellsword is the new standard of d&d melee power curve, so it's a fair comparison to stack it against all the other classes, Moreso battle cleric which is a similar but far worse setup.

[One Two Three Five]

I wouldn't want to depend on a 15% dispel chance against the dude coming at me with stacked combat buffs, frankly, and the timestop thing doesn't work so good anymore. (You could drop it halfway into the fight but I wouldn't rely on that)

Saveless damage? Half the good battleclerics take abjur focus anyway, and- nah.
Nah. You can work the build differences out yourself. They have different strengths and weaknesses, idunno what to tell you.
Battleclerics are fine. They're just not top-tier-destructive because the server is no longer a semi-vanilla blah blah blah etc. What scurvy said.

The more I think about this the more I think the path to making clerics better is to ignore the battlecleric side entirely as some kind of aberration that's still basically fine and shore up the caster side, which has always been the weaker half of cleric. Domain expansion is the easiest way to do that- war, plant, travel, and trickery can go basically untouched, for instance, leaving battleclerics alone- while some buffs to say, fire, evil, good, etc would throw some more variety and caster options into the mix.

I mean, even knowing that the standard D&D cleric powerbuild is to cheese your way into all-day divine power/favor, it's hard to believe the developers really meant for cleric to be a melee-burst almost-only class with a little spellcasting flavor in the higher tiers. Like what in tarnation is water domain supposed to accomplish.

[High Primate]

I find it ironic that we're both relying on Scurvy's point to defend opposite conclusions. With respect to the point that they are "okay, but not spectacular", they're lagging behind an increasingly large number of classes/builds that have become more powerful, while still being balanced against each other and having a range of abilities that make them fun to play. They don't need to be spectacular, but they could stand to be better than just "okay". They're outclassed by several mundanes, as well as some mundanes who use a bit of divine magic. You would think that those who channel divine magic to an even greater degree, as clerics do, would be able to hold their own alongside, and against, these other characters. Right now, they don't, and I firmly believe that this could be offset with just a few minute tweaks to their battle buffs, enough so that they do more damage than they do now, but still not as much damage as those who are more melee-focused. When fully buffed, they crit, what, in the low to mid 70s? Bring that up to low to mid 80s. This suggestion is not going to break the game, and they will still be balanced out by their signature weaknesses.

[Improv]

Battleclerics are fine. If anything they are kind of redundant anyway with paladins and blackguards and champions and knights being solid divine melee options. If clerics are to be improved, we need better caster cleric options! We need to be able to have sneaky agents of Dallah Thaun who aren't fully armored, skill-less and strength based. Or clerics of Mystra who are more like divine mages. I really think this is an "if you build it they will come" type thing just for the RP possibilities alone. The NWN archetype of every cleric being a battlecleric no matter how little it fits the deity is something that really needs to be left in the past.

The Healer path is a nice start though like with druids the overpowered monk combo really screws things up, for one by throwing off the power curve and two for making chaotic deities less attractive and playable.

[One Two Three Five]

I think it's more that we're coming to a similar conclusion (clerics need something) and approaching it from different sides:

battleclerics need a buff because of spellswords, paladins, WMs, etc

vs

caster clerics need a buff because of wild mages, battleclerics, warlocks, etc

I disagree with the former for a number of reasons that aren't really important and have been harping on the latter for like six years across fifty-eight accounts.

The NWN archetype of every cleric being a battlecleric no matter how little it fits the deity is something that really needs to be left in the past.

This really speaks to me.

[High Primate]

I'm not against buffing casters, either, and I agree with you that the domains could use a looking at. I'm not backing off from the points about blerics just yet, though, because in order for them to be optimal (viable?) they need to select from a very limited range of domains that don't always reflect their deity--so there must be something about them that is otherwise not all that great.

[One Two Three Five]

Yeah, haste, II, and barkskin are good buffs and most domains are bad.

[TimeAdept]

Those domains are selected because:

Innate Haste is amazin,g doubly so for buff intensive classes
Innate 50% conceal is amazing
Innate +5 Nat AC is amazing
Aura of Vitality is amazing

It's really those very specific functions of the domains, and no other reason. If Magic suddenly got Imp Invis, people would likely take it over Trickery. If Air suddenly had Haste, same deal

[High Primate]

Aura of Vitality isn't all that special, at least once you get to higher levels and the +12 ability cap is easy to reach. It's better on cha-clerics. The concealment is nice, but becomes redundant once you and the people around you have UMD--especially since those level 5 and 6 spellslots are precious and can be spent on other things. I stopped using Trickery Domain for my battlecleric once he reached level 25, though it was a nice quality of life thing up until then, sure.

[flower]

Those domains are selected because:

Innate Haste is amazin,g doubly so for buff intensive classes
Innate 50% conceal is amazing
Innate +5 Nat AC is amazing
Aura of Vitality is amazing

It's really those very specific functions of the domains, and no other reason. If Magic suddenly got Imp Invis, people would likely take it over Trickery. If Air suddenly had Haste, same deal

Not taking these spells is shooting yourself into leg with cleric, literally. And still you have to select two of them (and make up for rest with wands).

It offers very limited freedom on domains and they are totally irelevant for the deity. In fact, there is nothing which would tie cleric to deity but aligment and piety. Making chaotic deities suboptimal for healers (for example all elven deities), as you need that dip into monk.

[One Two Three Five]

http://forgottenrealms.wikia.com/wiki/Naralis_Analor
Naralis Analor, elven god of healing, supports LN and LG deities, and has you covered on the elf healer cleric front.
'but it's not canon!'
neither is lalaskra, oogooboogoo, or the deus vult 4chan meme one

[dallion43]

Anyone can use these spells from scrolls, their price is not any high on market, can be bought for 2 000 coins up to 2500 coins.
Heal potions are imho better even than heal spells. They do not také spell slots, heal almost same ammount of HPs.

X per rest for free is a condition that is a factor and has high value. Planned use vs emergency use etc. Imho of course.

Not quite correct. This was a specific nerf to a popular pale master setup, as well as a collateral nerf to monk pvp. It in no way touched cleric, or even many of the classes cleric is worried about.

It was partially a joke, like most of that post :p. But, for example, now cler has more value for monk builds. Not to mention DF been available only to clerics collaterally raise their value no?
Btw don't get me wrong, I always appreciate your posts, usually as a number two source of info after the DM updates topic -).

I guess I would sum the question to:

I've maintained for a while now that cleric is only dominant in a meta where nobody knows wtf they're doing. That is, less and less, an apt description for Arelith. This is mostly people waking up to the fact that cleric is okay, but not spectacular.

What is spectacular for me for cleric? Great melee party support melee with free per rest raise, MHs, armor+shield AC buffs etc, or maybe I want him to be like a ranger from Noob comic that the main DM played?

I am not arguing that in 1 on 1 PvP melee cleric can definitely use a relatively small bust vs current top tier builds, nor that caster cleric is too rest depended and somewhat weak overall, especially compared to direct alternative caster druid, and could use some help mainly based on minimal base PC wisdom(a simple alternative to path requiring more work, Imho), like barb bonuses.

The question is; is Arelith *designated class builds* are party role oriented or we want every build to be very similar? Imho.

P.C
BTW,

Gsanc can be stripped (along with their other wards)

is that DM legal?, if yes how? :p

[High Primate]

Yes, it's legal. It can be seen through with TS and breached with Mord's. Even if this is due to a bug, policing it would be impossible, as it would be impossible to establish that the player intended to exploit the bug given the chaotic and time-sensitive nature of PvP. It also doesn't work at all if the person casting it is concealed. I would, of course, be in favor of fixing that bug.

[Hunter548]

It's not really a bug: Greater Sanctuary is on the breach list, and Mord's very specifically will breach in an AoE if targetted at the ground.

[WinkinBlinkin]

I thought my battle cleric build was sub par, but she does 90+ damage on a crit with a whip when fully buffed. The build up time is horrific, and almost every fight is over before I get to that point, and that's with divine might, but I don't think buffs to damage are the way to go. I think maybe making some of their buffs instant actions might help, though.

[flower]

I thought my battle cleric build was sub par, but she does 90+ damage on a crit with a whip when fully buffed. The build up time is horrific, and almost every fight is over before I get to that point, and that's with divine might, but I don't think buffs to damage are the way to go. I think maybe making some of their buffs instant actions might help, though.

Oh...that is awsome idea.

[Wytchee]

The build-up time is important for balance reasons, both for clerics and paladins.

[One Two Three Five]

Yeah, instant-cast divine power would be uh.

I mean, I'd dust off my cleric sooner rather than later, eh?

[Cortex]

+3 dc to implosion
uncap heal mass heal and harm
remove gresto cd

[Tarkus the dog]

+3 dc to implosion
uncap heal mass heal and harm
remove gresto cd

+11111111111111

[Peppermint]

- Tone down barbarian and spellsword damage.
- Tone down (or remove) spellsword dispel resistance.
- Buff various cleric spells (e.g. searing light, fire storm) to make caster clerics more viable.

Battleclerics have never been top tier, but have never been bad. I don't think a B-tier spot is a bad place to be. However, a couple classes are a touch out of line. And caster clerics aren't in the best place.

[Griefmaker]

Clerics gets summons. /Powerful/ summons. Summons that can be buffed (possibly dispelled, but that is the exception to the rule and tends to happen when a cleric charges instead of lets his/her summon take the dispel. Until then they are a second warrior and then some). They add a pile of damage, can take a pile of damage, and are pretty invaluable.

Clerics can heal, they can disable, they can kill with spells, they can fight as well as any fighter and defend better, (albeit their greatest powers are only for a short duration, though they have many long-term buffs). They are pretty feat starved and all sort of have to be built the same way to maximize their effectiveness, but they are not even close to being weak.

Someone else mentioned it before, but clerics have not been updated or boosted because they have not needed it. That is why they might be seeming lackluster to others, due to no new tricks, but it just means that they have been powerful all this time and continue to be. Other classes are just catching up (or possibly surpassing, depending on one's point of view).

[High Primate]

- Tone down barbarian and spellsword damage.
- Tone down (or remove) spellsword dispel resistance.
- Buff various cleric spells (e.g. searing light, fire storm) to make caster clerics more viable.

Battleclerics have never been top tier, but have never been bad. I don't think a B-tier spot is a bad place to be. However, a couple classes are a touch out of line. And caster clerics aren't in the best place.

I guess my thinking here is that if these classes/builds are toned down, other classes would be next, but right now I'd rather not see WMs and Battlebards nerfed. SS could definitely use a slight nerf, though.

[One Two Three Five]

The APR change did a bit to that. No more epic spec for most of the newer spellswords. Reducing the int damage a little somehow might not hurt terribly, although that might do any number of things to how they're built depending on how it's done.