Clerics Need a Minor Buff

[High Primate]

OK. Well, since battleclerics are so fundamentally different from casters, and play a different role, consider my suggestion suitably modified to be a suggestion for battleclerics, to make them more on equal footing with some of the other melee builds. They just seem comparatively lackluster. They can go a caster route instead of a combat route, but those that go the combat route could stand an upward tweak to stand shoulder to shoulder with other melee-ers, rather than shoulder to head (with the head belonging to the bcleric). That's where I'd say they are right now.

The problem I see with battleclerics is that the buffing time is not worth the damage they do and they are more frail than other melee classes given their vulnerability to dispels. They do achieve excellent AB for a limited period of time, but the wind-up is very long, and it's complicated by the fact that they cannot sit around for too long before they get dispelled. Given the risks, short duration, and lengthy windup time for cleric combat buffs, there could stand to be an additional payoff in damage output.

Another suggestion is just to make the damage bonus from some of their combat spells a bit higher. Make a few of the clerics damage buffs, like Divine Power, Prayer, and Battletide, just a bit heftier, enough to give them an additional 8 or so points of damage on average when fully buffed. They would be short-term damage dealers, but it's still not more damage than the more melee-focused builds (they'll generally crit in the 80s while their buffs are in play, after which they'll have to recast them again). They'd still be less powerful than several melee builds this way.


(Rogues are shoulder to waist, as are non-DS druids, but that's a different thread).

BTW, about the elementals: Blackguards are pretty good melee-ers, better than battleclerics when properly built, I'd say, and get a very decent summon. Fiendlocks are undeniably better and get a quite cushy summon, too. So I don't think it's so ridiculous to argue that battleclerics would be imbalanced because because of the elementals. This, it seems to me, would be par for the course with several other builds/classes. And while Blackguards and Warlocks have a cooldown on their summons, battleclerics do not, and their spell slots are limited.

[Wytchee]

I don't think they should "balance up" because I don't want Arelith to become like Diablo. Power creep isn't just a buzzword, it's an actual phenomenon. IMO battle clerics should be the standard the devs use to gauge the effectiveness of other melee-focused classes, as they have traditionally been regarded as a top-tier build in regards to both PvE and PvP.

If barbies and spellswords blow past them, then barbies and spellswords should be dialed back.

And for the record, while the "wind up time" is insufferable (and prevents me from playing a cleric) it doesn't exactly cripple them. Battle clerics have free and easy access to Word of Faith which renders any claims about their ineffectiveness in PvP ridiculous imo.

[flower]

Word of faith is countered by true seeing which battlecleric cannot ever dispel and thus serves only as unsummoning spell.

You cannot go and nerf four melee classes. Because each nerf will just upset people, forcing them to re level, delete and skip their characters. That is not very healthy step against playerbase.

There were several comments how people in past rocked with their clerics. Well, we do not discuss past times. Since it, meleers with additional free full AB attacks happened, been added SS, changes to BG and paladins happened too.

Yes, more variety for clerics would be awsome. But people will not make various and different clerics when it is like now, when you go either full caster with healer and monk dip or go pre set battlecleric build because anything else is extremely inferior to all.


And i really do not understand complaints about mages. Wizard had always been core of my party, allowing us to face NPCs of much higher tier. Yes, usually spent most time buffing, warding and hasting. But in the deciding moments or when things went badly, I know i can rely on my friend with his wizard to shift tables in our favor by his spells. And we are visiting places where he cannot rest for like half hour / all the time and must do with his starting spells.

[Astral]

Please dont buff clerics. They have divine power. they have the same CL as mages. battle clerics are 'greedy' builds who deserve to be dispelled (and arent that crippled by it, also). Healers are broken.

Care to go into detail on how healer path clerics are broken? I'd like to hear your logic and explanation on this.

All it takes is 3 monk lvls to really make the penalties of being a healer (no armor, only simple weapons) completely irrelevant. That leaves the healer with as much ac as a standard cleric, quaterstaff (note that you dont even have to take many combat feats to be strong in combat when two-weapon fighting alone brings your ab back to the mid 40s when buffed, not including any str/dex investment) and 100+ over heal.

In short, you have the combat numbers of battle clerics and stronger buffs for party/summon than a battle cleric (and even a mage for the matter). personally, I made a healer with 18 charisma and even found place for 4 paladin lvls and 3 monk lvls and divine shield/might as well as War Domain. And it can go a lot cheesier than this even.

[flower]

Do not forget you must roleplay your monk class and be lawful.

[Tyrantos]

I personally dont feel that clerics need a buff. If its because of the spellblade hitting the market, It might just be worth removing the spellblades bonus CL to save against dispels instead. Just a thought.

[Sockss]

Clerics are fine right now, it's just that spellswords are much, much better compared to a battle-cleric.

Spellswords are a very new addition, so I'm sure they'll be tweaked.

In the interests of making more options available to players, caster clerics should be looked at IMO - since they've never been viable. The meta is very much healer-cleric and battle-cleric.

It's also worth mentioning there are significantly different tier lists for PvE and PvP content. Arelith PvE isn't especially difficult at any stage, so the PvE list is largely a speed / ease of use one. Things like pure druids and ye olde weavemasters are top tier PvE, but are not great in PvP, for example.

[Seven Sons of Sin]

One thing I've really appreciated with yce is the extension of duration for buffs. We've seen some of this with the CoT and the paladin and Knight stuff.

It's too difficult to ever get to a "per encounter" model, because we aren't playing DnD. But I feel like, more of a QoL than a buff maybe, is extending some of the short-term buffs. Divine Favour I've always seen as a major culprit, clocking in at a flat 1 minute. I'd love if it could scale (1 min per 10 levels or something).

One thing I don't like is balancing burst and sustain, and I understand it's unavoidable, but I wish there was a way to retool this concept to somehow make buffs-matters build to somehow have an easier time managing the plethora of different durations for all their spells.

I also think we need to get rid of 18-20/x2 threat range on weapons in general. It was a terrible idea that I think we should correct.

[Sab1]

Honestly I think it would be better to just tweek spellswords some.

[flower]

Honestly I think it would be better to just tweek spellswords some.

Removing bonus CL from SS is not a major hit on them. Nerfing imbueing of weapons (chain lighting imbue and dispel? Aww) and armours will loose the flavor for SS. Removing access to EMA would force class into stereotype of heavy armour most likely. I do not think there can be done a lot to "tweak" them and not drive their players off.

But it is not just SS. There are many other classes receiving power creep up signicantly last months. Friends barbarian on pre 10th level was having criticals almost 80 + damage. That is just hilarious and clearly shows how all numbers bump up on all new paths / class changes.

[One Two Three Five]

I don't know if it's power creep really. The numbers we're seeing were never impossible. Clerics in particular haven't been changed very much so they're a good indicator, actually. It's always been possible for a cleric to give themselves +5 to armor, shield, deflection, and natural AC. Another 4 from haste. Pick up improved expertise and we're looking at 62 ac with just vanilla NWN.

Although, picking up IE on every meleer seems like a relatively (past couple years) recent realization for the wider populace. So the numbers are nothing new.

The 'problem' (it isn't) is twofold, to me:
First: We have a build forum and a community that's a little less insular about build knowledge, coupled with the fact that this game's been out for like 15 years, and the numbers and methods of getting them are well known. So the general competency has gone up, which means general build power has gone up. There's nothing that can be done to stop this. Someone will always find the optimal build path for any given addition/subtraction. Cat's out of the bag on this one.

Second: The realm of being Very Good (or even acceptably good sometimes) in this or that thing is no longer restricted to old NWN Standby Powerbuilds like druid/monk DSer, smiterdins, melee palemasters, and buff-at-the-drop-of-a-hat battleclerics. To name a few. Now you can get good numbers with wizards, barbarians, warlocks have their own set of 'optimal,' druids no longer need monk to be competent, etc etc. So it's less power creep and more power equivalency I think.

the new stuff is fine. no longer needing to be a gimmick build to be good coupled with increased build/play ability among the general populace just makes things look stronger than the might actually be. This has the perhaps unintended side effect of making things that haven't been tweaked too much (cleric in this case) look worse by dint of losing their previous singular power.

[dallion43]

Didn't clerics got a considerable buff just two updates ago?

Miscellany Divine Power can no longer be cast from a scroll.

Don't get me wrong many of my characters over the years were clerics, btw that already says something about clerics, :p, joke.
Standard battle cleric, 23 cler/4 fighter/3 bard if build right is still one of the top builds, especially after the above. Not to mention the monk wiz synergy options.
Should they get another buff? I think the problem with them on Arelith is that once they ruled it(I guess?:p) and then most mobs suddenly got spammable dispels, and after the anti-stacking rule no one told the mobs to relax -).

Giving them(only Clers) stakable flame weapon isn't going to do much in PvP due to 5/- fire is the first along 5/- acid, but it can give them a hand in PvE vs dispellers.
-------
I wouldn't recommend to buff down, since if you start buffing down, it is an endless circle of whine in all directions. I will be the first to whine -). All "recent" buffs to many classes opened(at least to me) many builds that I newer even though of considering before, and I can actually consider RP factor in what I want to play, since there is more then a few comparable fresh good options on Arelith currently.
I am sure it is true to many others, which is golden for a game we all play for a second decade now.

[BegoneThoth]

I personally dont feel that clerics need a buff. If its because of the spellblade hitting the market, It might just be worth removing the spellblades bonus CL to save against dispels instead. Just a thought.

I don't see why battleclerics can't just get a path with a suite of free skill points/CL/dispel/weapon proficients/HD upgrade/bab/apr etc that wizards got with SS.

Playing a battle cleric just feels antiquated.

[Wytchee]

For Battlecleric to be a path they would need to sacrifice something in the way of spellcasting, like inhibiting summons.

+ martial weapon proficiency
+ can stack darkfire on enchanted weapons
+ 3 vs dispels
+ I don't know, some sort of buff to Battletide

- ability to summon
- epic spells (no hellballing battle priests)
- no epic spell foci perks like -conjure or -project_image

You want to play a battle priest? Play a battle priest. Leave epic spell foci and casting for priests who focus in their spells and blessings rather than martial combat.

[flower]

For Battlecleric to be a path they would need to sacrifice something in the way of spellcasting, like inhibiting summons.

+ martial weapon proficiency
+ can stack darkfire on enchanted weapons
+ 3 vs dispels

- ability to summon
- epic spells (no hellballing battle priests)
- no epic spell foci perks like -conjure or -project_image

You want to play a battle priest? Play a battle priest. Leave epic spell foci and casting for priests who focus in their spells and blessings rather than martial combat.

I hope these things listed are only examples because battlecleric would then play only insane people. Darkfire, +3 vs dispel, and even not access to martial weapons is worth the penalties listed. Spellsword gets for these things removed following: imbue items, additional dmg from INt and alike.

[Wytchee]

For Battlecleric to be a path they would need to sacrifice something in the way of spellcasting, like inhibiting summons.

+ martial weapon proficiency
+ can stack darkfire on enchanted weapons
+ 3 vs dispels

- ability to summon
- epic spells (no hellballing battle priests)
- no epic spell foci perks like -conjure or -project_image

You want to play a battle priest? Play a battle priest. Leave epic spell foci and casting for priests who focus in their spells and blessings rather than martial combat.

I hope these things listed are only examples because battlecleric would then play only insane people. Darkfire, +3 vs dispel, and even not access to martial weapons is worth the penalties listed. Spellsword gets for these things removed following: imbue items, additional dmg from INt and alike.

I added a buff/change to Battletide before you responded.

Additional damage from Wisdom wouldn't be ridiculous. I get the feeling people aren't going to be pleased no matter what is changed, anyway.

Also keep in mind that clerics get more spellslots than wizards and have more versatile buffs (they can enchant bronze armor and a bronze shield in any manner they like, as magic vestment stacks on enchanted gear). Take all these things into account when considering what's fair and what isn't.

A battlecleric with these buffs AND access to (saveless) hellball/greater ruin would be server-breaking. Clerics with these feats already kind of are.

[Nitro]

I really don't think we need a specific path for battlecleric because, well, you can already make a battlecleric. It's one of the staple cleric builds. Separating it into its own path wouldn't increase build diversity for clerics, it would decrease it as you're forced into a path if you want to be a bcleric.

[Wytchee]

I really don't think we need a specific path for battlecleric because, well, you can already make a battlecleric. It's one of the staple cleric builds. Separating it into its own path wouldn't increase build diversity for clerics, it would decrease it as you're forced into a path if you want to be a bcleric.

If battle clerics are going to receives bonuses that make them better battle clerics, they should receive maluses that make them poorer caster clerics. This is difficult to do without a path.

Battle clerics are already top tier in both PvE and PvP; maybe not as strong as spellswords (that's debatable), but top tier nevertheless. Giving them bonuses while allowing them to retain their ability to cast saveless hellballs, greater ruins, or summon powerful dragons would be silly.

In form and function, battle clerics and caster clerics are essentially two different classes, anyway. A path makes the most sense and would be the easiest to balance, imo.

[One Two Three Five]

viewtopic.php?f=15&t=15907
The stuff I put here is supremely unpolished but was mostly intended to be a concept-bounce in any case. I agree with Wytchee though: if clerics need a buff, it'd be hard to do one side of cleric (caster or battle) without touching the other half, unless one half of cleric is split into a path.

Thus: Splitting cleeric into cleric 'classic' (summons, domains, epic spells), and cleric 'warpriest/battle' (combat prowess, better burst buffs, etc). If nothing else, it'd make either half easier to balance.

(Another alternative might be a Regulith Version of the FL favored soul for a 'caster' type, but it needs some fixing to be viable as anything other than a buffbot cleric.)

In form and function, battle clerics and caster clerics are essentially two different classes, anyway.

This, basically, is the problem with clerics if it can be called that. It's two classes fighting over one class chassis, sharing buffs, nerfs, or inattention equally, but not equally powerful or even viable.

[dallion43]

Lets not forget that clerics are not only burst and have epic spell access but also arguably the best sustain class due to *free* 1 GR per 180 sec and X per rest mass heals valuable in PvP and PvE . Kits can't compare after the item nerf.
Battle clerics aren't "always ready" dps WMs and shouldn't be due to their niche in the Rock, paper and scissors NwN classes balance.

P.C
1. Clerics already have paths, they are taken during the excel sheet munching prior to the first login :p, joke.

2. Regardind SSds, do they really beat now in 1 on 1 pvp high epics proper build WMs carrying GR scroll, breach wand and 2 stacks of true strike potions that everyone praise them so highly on the forums or it is because they fresh and flexible in both PvP and PvE?

[High Primate]

I don't see the point of nerfing vanilla clerics, let alone making a battlecleric path. If anything, that discourages people trying to build hybrid caster-meleers, which they might be more willing to do if the class got a tiny buff. And I don't think it's just spellswords that they could be brought up to par with, but some of the other melee classes as well, which I think are mostly in a good spot. I am in favor of looking into the domains, since clerics are made even worse if you pick anything other than a select few of them.

I don't necessarily agree with the earlier claim that PvE on Arelith is too easy. Most people who say that are succumbing to some degree of availability bias, i.e., they're only thinking about the dungeons people go to, and not the dungeons that see almost no traffic at all (primarily due to dispel spammers). Most of those dungeons are somewhat out of date in terms of balance and could use an update anyway, while most of the newer dungeons and spawns, I think, are fairly well balanced and challenging (Ogres, for instance).

In PvP, as far as the gallery of melee tanks goes, clerics are at a lower tier. They're basically B-tier where everything else has been balanced around an A or A- range.

All I'm asking for is a fairly minor buff. If you read the content of my original post, I'm not going "REEEEEE CLERICS ARE SUCK". They could use a tiny boost to their abilities, enough to make their damage output worth the windup time, short duration, and their relative fragility. On that note, most of the defenses of clerics I'm seeing here appeal to evidence that's out of date, back when the gift system was stronger and other melee classes were weaker.

[flower]

Anyone can use these spells from scrolls, their price is not any high on market, can be bought for 2 000 coins up to 2500 coins.

Heal potions are imho better even than heal spells. They do not také spell slots, heal almost same ammount of HPs.

[One Two Three Five]

They're just new. Their numbers are roughly in tune with a well-built, cleric (damage might? be higher, but the AB is lower than a cleric on that Burst, which parses fine), without the benefit of epic spells or summons. The spellsword/fighter/monk one gets pretty high ac at the cost of needing every stat but charisma to be maxed out.

They're very good, but not in a 'clerics are suddenly bad' tier sort of way, and not without working for it in a different way than clerics. I could argue that caster clerics need a buff, but battleclerics will almost always be fine barring some sort of huge nerf to the way divine power/favor/battletide/AB-stacking-in-general works. (If anything I'd argue clerics might look to be balanced against paladins, since they're both similarly-themed classes with a wind-up option, but clerics have hellball access and multiple lifebars, so..)

Granted, I've been arguing that caster clerics need a buff for a while, most preferably in the form of either a favored soul path or expanding the bonus spells on domains so that they're all viable.

[Scurvy Cur]

Didn't clerics got a considerable buff just two updates ago?

Miscellany Divine Power can no longer be cast from a scroll.

Don't get me wrong many of my characters over the years were clerics, btw that already says something about clerics, :p, joke.
Standard battle cleric, 23 cler/4 fighter/3 bard if build right is still one of the top builds, especially after the above. Not to mention the monk wiz synergy options.
Should they get another buff? I think the problem with them on Arelith is that once they ruled it(I guess?:p) and then most mobs suddenly got spammable dispels, and after the anti-stacking rule no one told the mobs to relax -).

Giving them(only Clers) stakable flame weapon isn't going to do much in PvP due to 5/- fire is the first along 5/- acid, but it can give them a hand in PvE vs dispellers.
-------
I wouldn't recommend to buff down, since if you start buffing down, it is an endless circle of whine in all directions. I will be the first to whine -). All "recent" buffs to many classes opened(at least to me) many builds that I newer even though of considering before, and I can actually consider RP factor in what I want to play, since there is more then a few comparable fresh good options on Arelith currently.
I am sure it is true to many others, which is golden for a game we all play for a second decade now.

Not quite correct. This was a specific nerf to a popular pale master setup, as well as a collateral nerf to monk pvp. It in no way touched cleric, or even many of the classes cleric is worried about.

Spammable dispels have never had any impact at all on the "no stacked weapon buffs" situation either, since none of the spells that go on weapons ever get dispelled.

Cleric itself has actually changed very little. The relevant changes have been:

-Weapon Buff Stacking Nerfed (2006; unequivocal nerf to clerics)
-Gsanc Duration changed from 1 turn/level to 1 round/level to 1 round/4 levels (2005-2007)
-+5 skill gear removed from basins (2006)
-True Sight Duration Nerfed from 1 turn/level to 1 round/level (2005)
-Harm and Heal Nerfed to 10/level damage or healing (2014/15 or so)
-Gresto put on cooldown (2016)
-Implosion DC bonus removed (2016)

Note that there have been a total of 3 relevant nerfs that aren't a decade old at this point.

What has happened, as numbers-man has alluded to, has not been so much a cleric nerf as a combination of other classes being buffed to the level of also-competence, a proliferation of solid gearing options that narrow the cleric gap, and the playerbase by and large getting better at playing against clerics.

I've maintained for a while now that cleric is only dominant in a meta where nobody knows wtf they're doing. That is, less and less, an apt description for Arelith. This is mostly people waking up to the fact that cleric is okay, but not spectacular.

[flower]

They're just new. Their numbers are roughly in tune with a well-built, cleric (damage might? be higher, but the AB is lower than a cleric on that Burst, which parses fine), without the benefit of epic spells or summons. The spellsword/fighter/monk one gets pretty high ac at the cost of needing every stat but charisma to be maxed out.

They're very good, but not in a 'clerics are suddenly bad' tier sort of way, and not without working for it in a different way than clerics. I could argue that caster clerics need a buff, but battleclerics will almost always be fine barring some sort of huge nerf to the way divine power/favor/battletide/AB-stacking-in-general works.

Granted, I've been arguing that caster clerics need a buff for a while, most preferably in the form of either a favored soul path or expanding the bonus spells on domains so that they're all viable.

Spellsword can have access to the best dispel in game. Can remove easily majority of spells that battlecleric will use to bring his AB and damage to even level with SS in one or two lucky cast.

On top of that his hit may cause further dispelling, stun and alike.

Can use damage sheaths with high damage while being meeler.

Stil has access to high damage no save spells.

Cannot be dispelled by cleric beside spells vulnerable to breachs.

Can choose if to go Dex or Str way, offering extrem variability in builds.

Gains 4 additional bonus feats pre epic.

Do you really want to compare both and say they are on even level?

Edit: Can have access (depends on forbidden schools) to timestops to soften cleric up or dispel her/him.