Clerics Need a Minor Buff

[Wytchee]

That sounds reasonable.

[Zavandar]

We've had very different experiences on this server.

I also have a feeling some people are arguing on paper and others are arguing on actually function.

[cptcuddlepants]

I would say clerics are actually pretty good AC wise--the standard bcleric can get 66, at least. I still agree that they could be more balanced with the other meleers, though.

If my math is right, you'll only be able to reach 66 AC if you have Plant domain for Barkskin, an active Haste spell, and Improved Expertise up - so, a dispel can shred most of that, along with the buffs that are keeping your AB above the mid 30s.

[High Primate]

For myself, I've played a battlecleric all the way to level 30, so I have more than a theoretical understanding of this.

[High Primate]

I would say clerics are actually pretty good AC wise--the standard bcleric can get 66, at least. I still agree that they could be more balanced with the other meleers, though.

If my math is right, you'll only be able to reach 66 AC if you have Plant domain for Barkskin, an active Haste spell, and Improved Expertise up - so, a dispel can shred all that, along with the buffs that are keeping your AB above the mid 30s.

You don't need plant, but a Shadow Shield scroll, you'd need. And yeah, getting hit with a dispel will ruin that.

[cptcuddlepants]

... And today is the day I learned that Shadow Shield gives AC.

[flower]

I'd like more attention put into clerics.

So far it seemed like certain classes getting attention (reworked) from people who actively play them.

We could go with several paths for cleric, each adjusting slightly certain minor things. Battlecleric for + CL, and slight buff to combat spells (for example re worked GMw doing something else than adding +5 enchant but some setting some properties like SS has).

Caster cleric, getting some additional effects to spells (secondary ones). Find a way to exclude monk?

Healer path as it is.

And, shadowy cleric, so all those people wishing to play priests of Vhaerun, Shar and similar deities could finally make valid dex/sneaky build. Give it reguirment for shadowy deity, tho?

Imho + CL would be a big boon to cleric, as it would allow to také more lvls in other class, and thus improving its performance while keeping least minimal resistence to dispels.

[Zavandar]

Scaling the problem classes down would be a much better decision than bringing clerics up. That's if a change needs to be had at all.

A +3 CL vs. dispel with the standard 23/4/3 would raise the DC to 38, and Mord's scrolls wouldn't work at that point. That leaves actual dispellers and reflex as pretty much their only weakness. Meanwhile, they're hitting like a truck with buffs up with AB in the 40's and AC in the 60's with imp expertise on.

Yeah, there's other broken builds (looking at monk spellswords). But two wrongs don't make a right.

[Nitro]

It would be nice to see some limited stackability for all the subpar weapon buffs like keen edge, darkfire, flame weapon and such. Just to see them used a bit more.

[flower]

Scaling the problem classes down would be a much better decision than bringing clerics up. That's if a change needs to be had at all.

A +3 CL vs. dispel with the standard 23/4/3 would raise the DC to 38, and Mord's scrolls wouldn't work at that point. That leaves actual dispellers and reflex as pretty much their only weakness. Meanwhile, they're hitting like a truck with buffs up with AB in the 40's and AC in the 60's with imp expertise on.

Yeah, there's other broken builds (looking at monk spellswords). But two wrongs don't make a right.

I really doubt you can downgrade these down. You would have to remove fighter bonuses, paladin's tweeks,, SS most cookies.

I made recently a barbarian. Doing damage 28-50 regularly on level 4th. The meta is far from what it used to be, and several classes were left behind, without attention (not just cleric, in that case).

[Tarkus the dog]

Actually, what am I saying.

Yes, clerics entirely need a buff. If you could also make that the EDK receives the same spells that you cast on yourself, that would be a welcome addition. Somebody send a PM my way when this change comes, so that I switch my guy to a melee cleric.

[Dorkas]

Buff clerics? I think assassins need to be nerfed first, before we buff such an underpowered class like cleric, c'mon guys.

[CookieMonster]

But, how does this nerf Clerics?

On a side note? Seriously?

My Battlcleric was so powerful the Baddies needed DMs to help them beat her when I played Rosalie and even with the help of Fiend Generals, Rosalie just minced them with the power of Tyr. In all the time I played her, she only died in one PvP and that was pretty much 10 v 2 and we still won that fight. (R.I.P Sencliff)

They do not need a buff, at all.

And let's be honest, why have we gotten on this trend of asking for Buffs and Cookies? If a class such a Spellsword is so powerful, the solution is not to make every other class as powerful, but to think of and offer up a more ideal solution to the problemed classes in mind.

"Because they can make Godswords and Melee and Cast, we all should" is not a productive solution.

[Astral]

Please dont buff clerics. They have divine power. they have the same CL as mages. battle clerics are 'greedy' builds who deserve to be dispelled (and arent that crippled by it, also). Healers are broken.

[Wytchee]

Apologies in advance for derailing OP's thread, but I think it's generally agreed that clerics are in a good place even if they do have some competition from spellswords.

Reiterating what others have said now, the solution isn't to buff clerics.

The solution is to tone down melee classes in general.

Even pure druids are a bit too powerful now. Have you SEEN a level 28 druid's fire elemental form? It's quite absurd. Barbarians are unstoppable, with two reliable cc-breakers on cooldown. Weapon masters top nearly all the charts despite fighter, weapon master and rogue remaining more or less unchanged from vanilla. Battle clerics have only one functional weakness, that being abjurers. Spellswords deal ridiculous damage, have high survivability and are very difficult to dispel.

A few years ago Weave Masters were the problem. Now, it's clear that melee-oriented classes are causing the power creep on this server, and it's really being felt by non-evocation mages who are essentially non-functional in late game content. Please tell me what is the actual point in bringing a wizard along when a weapon master/barbarian can make mincemeat of a boss in a few rounds? They're just buff bots at this point, and largely unnecessary ones.

I feel so useless in parties as a wizard. Yeah, I'll slap down a few mass hastes now and then. That's useful. But is that he whole point of the class, now? 'Cause it feels like it. I don't even bother with Gate or other one off "boss fight" spells because by the time the freakin' Slaad is done buffing the weapon master already has the boss down to Near Death.

Here's how late-game dungeons work for a wizard:

Weapon Master [Tell]: haste pls
Weapon Master [Tell]: thx
Weapon Master [Tell]: haste?
Weapon Master [Tell]: ty
Weapon Master [Tell]: k thanks for the rp

I'll be candid as I can. DC mages SUCK in a major way in late-game PvE content with very few exceptions. Everything either has immunity to mind effects, immunity to death or just ridiculous saves. This isn't just a late-game issue either. I went to cast Phantasmal Killer on the Priest of Malar in FoD -- nope, guess he's immune to death because despite failing the fortitude save, nothing happened. Well, okay. Guess it's good for dealing with stronger-than-average trash mobs.

By the way, Cortex, if you're reading this, why do some of the spires barbarian mobs have immunity to certain spells and will saves in the mid 20s? Please change this. They're barbarians. In what fantasy setting are mind-affecting spells ineffectual against barbarians?

Sorry.

/rant

[Cortex]

I feel so useless in parties as a wizard. Yeah, I'll slap down a few mass hastes now and then. That's useful. But is that he whole point of the class, now?

yes

By the way, Cortex, if you're reading this, why do some of the spires barbarian mobs have immunity to certain spells and will saves in the mid 20s? Please change this. They're barbarians. In what fantasy setting are mind-affecting spells ineffectual against barbarians?

i forgot also no ive retired for now

[Wytchee]

The part of my post directed at you was snarkier than it needed to be. I do appreciate the work you did do, and I hope you come out of retirement soon.

[One Two Three Five]

I feel so useless in parties as a wizard. Yeah, I'll slap down a few mass hastes now and then. That's useful. But is that he whole point of the class, now?

I've been playing this server for like, since high school which was- oh. oh jesus.
a while ago. And let me just say: Wizards have been like this for a while. Hell, they're better than they used to be. Summons used to be vanilla, for one thing. Casters in general, in a party with melees, turn into buff-bots till the boss needs to be spammed down with an evo-combo or something. NWN doesn't really have the god wizards of the edition it's based off, so a lot of casters are buffs + emergencies.

[TheOpticalMouse]

Please dont buff clerics. They have divine power. they have the same CL as mages. battle clerics are 'greedy' builds who deserve to be dispelled (and arent that crippled by it, also). Healers are broken.

Care to go into detail on how healer path clerics are broken? I'd like to hear your logic and explanation on this.

[High Primate]

Apologies in advance for derailing OP's thread, but I think it's generally agreed that clerics are in a good place even if they do have some competition from spellswords.

Reiterating what others have said now, the solution isn't to buff clerics.

The solution is to tone down melee classes in general.

1. Who cares whether the server is balanced up or down? As long as it's balanced, then that should be fine.

2. Balancing many classes down is more frustrating than balancing one class up. It requires more work for the devs and causes more disruption to the server and annoyance to the playerbase. As a rule of thumb, if you can solve a balance issue with less changes instead of more, you should choose less.

[Zavandar]

Everyone being imbalanced doesn't mean things are balanced.

[High Primate]

Everyone being imbalanced doesn't mean things are balanced.

Balance between parts of a whole is a relation between the parts. If the parts are appropriately related, they are balanced. In the context of video games, if the game is challenging, and if there are multiply viable ways to meet those challenging goals, including for skilled players with a deep knowledge of the game, then the video game is balanced. Making classes more powerful doesn't necessarily make things imbalanced. If the monsters get too easy, the devs can tweak up them a bit too.

I am against balancing down because overall, people have responded positively to most of the class changes that have been made in recent months. Powerful classes are fun to play, and nerfing them is generally annoying for the people who play them; changes to classes in general are risky, since they often force people to delevel or completely ruin a build. Nerfing a bunch of melee classes is a bad idea. It's also worth noting that there have been some nerfs to some of the more absurd builds (Warlocks, DSers, PDKs). I don't think the melee gallery should be nerfed, especially because overall it's more balanced than it used to be, and the recent changes have for the most part been more popular with the playerbase than anything I can recall--CoT, Blackguard, Barbarian, Paladin, and PDK are all in a fairly good spot, and all of them are a little bit stronger than clerics. The balance team has done a really good job.

[Zavandar]

You're trying to come at it from the angle of "less work for the team" but now you're talking about rebalancing whole swathes of NPCs.

[High Primate]

Make a new thread arguing that the melee classes should be nerfed more, then. And it's worth repeating that the recent changes have also included nerfs, so I'm not even sure there's been a trend towards balancing up, or, if there has, it has been to a reasonable degree.

[Improv]

Well. I will hit the point again that clerics need a better variety of paths and playstyles more than we need to make sure battleclerics are "balanced" with spellswords and weaponmasters.

We need more clerics, and we need more clerics from different deities, and we don't need them to all be either battleclerics or healer/monks. They're a class whose RP is completely defined by the deity they chose, but allowing for a much wider range of cleric RP possibilities is a place where this server sorely needs some balance (aspects are WILDLY imbalanced, especially when some deities give their followers two!) and some creativity (we need paths that allow for much different playstyles beyond the 23/4/3 battlecleric mold like sneaky spy clerics, caster clerics, primitive shamans and more.)

I don't know what the answers are exactly.. Perhaps more prestige classes catering to deities and factions? it's odd that harpers have five prestige variants and no one else has anything like it, I think there could be some real potential there by creating similar divine paragons based on different cleric archetypes or something.