Clerics Need a Minor Buff

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BegoneThoth
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Re: Clerics Need a Minor Buff

Post by BegoneThoth » Fri Dec 29, 2017 4:14 pm

One Two Three Five wrote:The APR change did a bit to that. No more epic spec for most of the newer spellswords. Reducing the int damage a little somehow might not hurt terribly, although that might do any number of things to how they're built depending on how it's done.
TBF they tend to get more dmg then epic spec would give them for merely existing. Losing epic spec just means they're not quite AS ahead of fighters in physical damage output, but still ahead.
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One Two Three Five
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Re: Clerics Need a Minor Buff

Post by One Two Three Five » Fri Dec 29, 2017 4:19 pm

I mean, big chunk of their extra damage is elemental, no? The non-int one. More easily resisted save the magic-specific imbue. Rather tone down the physical addition they get from int, if it's toned down at all. But more than likely the fix for that'll be dropping one level of spellsword (losing 1 ab, I think?) and grabbing an extra fighter in epic for the damage. Status quo returned. Unless you nerf things heavy-handedly, crowdsourced powerbuilding will find the optimal path again in short order.
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BegoneThoth
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Re: Clerics Need a Minor Buff

Post by BegoneThoth » Fri Dec 29, 2017 5:17 pm

Yeah but they just get int to damage as well, as physical damage. So losing epic weapon spec still puts them ahead of fighter weapon spec/EWS damage.
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One Two Three Five
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Re: Clerics Need a Minor Buff

Post by One Two Three Five » Fri Dec 29, 2017 5:27 pm

Rather tone down the physical addition they get from int
I both am aware of what you're saying and agreeing
just also think anything but a heavy nerf into 'not worth it range' will get built around in a couple hours.
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Hunter548
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Re: Clerics Need a Minor Buff

Post by Hunter548 » Fri Dec 29, 2017 6:43 pm

High Primate wrote: I guess my thinking here is that if these classes/builds are toned down, other classes would be next, but right now I'd rather not see WMs and Battlebards nerfed. SS could definitely use a slight nerf, though.
WMs have already gotten nerfed fairly well by the artifact change: What took WMs from "solid build with weaknesses" to "destroyer of server balance" was artifacts and their semi-unique position to make use of powerful artifacts. I'm not personally convinced they're that overwhelming anymore. Battlebards have a more glaring weakness in that they're weak to burst damage: WMs can be troublesome for them if the bard doesn't play very well, and mages especially are bad news.
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BegoneThoth
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Re: Clerics Need a Minor Buff

Post by BegoneThoth » Fri Dec 29, 2017 7:56 pm

One Two Three Five wrote:
Rather tone down the physical addition they get from int
I both am aware of what you're saying and agreeing
just also think anything but a heavy nerf into 'not worth it range' will get built around in a couple hours.
Spellsword reflects the new direction of the server, with new server exclusive content just getting big flat bonus's to put it ahead of vanilla/classic options.

Classes that don't get such things can and will fall behind. They need to be adjusted.

As cleric is a wisdom class giving a 'battle cleric' path wisdom to damage and free discipline/cl/piety would help a lot. I think that should be done given the direction the server is headed in, unless planned obsolescence is the intent, in which case do nothing.
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Hunter548
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Re: Clerics Need a Minor Buff

Post by Hunter548 » Fri Dec 29, 2017 8:40 pm

BegoneThoth wrote: Spellsword reflects the new direction of the server, with new server exclusive content just getting big flat bonus's to put it ahead of vanilla/classic options.

Classes that don't get such things can and will fall behind. They need to be adjusted.

As cleric is a wisdom class giving a 'battle cleric' path wisdom to damage and free discipline/cl/piety would help a lot. I think that should be done given the direction the server is headed in, unless planned obsolescence is the intent, in which case do nothing.
Spellsword is, currently, overtuned. Boosting everything up to parity with it isn't balance, it's power creep. Spellsword should instead be brought in line with other classes.
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BegoneThoth
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Re: Clerics Need a Minor Buff

Post by BegoneThoth » Fri Dec 29, 2017 8:57 pm

It wasn't made op via some class interaction, it was introduced with simply free damage, saves, caster level, apr, hit die, and more, all things it got for merely existing.

This is why it is a good look at the future. When new content is made it is going to receive massive artificial and arbitrary bonus's. I see no reason to expect anything else.

So again, either other classes need to get free stats skills apr CL dispel resistance damage ac or whatever, or get left behind. Ranger buffs were also of this nature.

That's why it's not a question of problematic tuning, but rather direction. Why does SS get free discipline? Because those that made the class simply wanted it to be better.
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Nitro
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Re: Clerics Need a Minor Buff

Post by Nitro » Fri Dec 29, 2017 9:43 pm

I don't really get what you're saying here. Are you implying that it's impossible to nerf spellswords down to parity with other similar classes, therefore we should just give up and buff everything else up to the same standard?

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BegoneThoth
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Re: Clerics Need a Minor Buff

Post by BegoneThoth » Fri Dec 29, 2017 9:50 pm

Nitro wrote:I don't really get what you're saying here. Are you implying that it's impossible to nerf spellswords down to parity with other similar classes, therefore we should just give up and buff everything else up to the same standard?
I'm saying the way the developer team works now is to simply give classes free numbers. If you arnt playing a class than just has free stuff (which can be literally anything from apr to CL to stats to skills) then you are behind.

Could these classes be made good/interesting by giving them things other the just literally free numbers? Yes, but with the SS, paladin, and Ranger changes, the free numbers is the way things are going. You either get free stats/cl/skills/ac/ab or you don't and just need to wait until it's your turn.

It's a "take turns" approach to balance used by some companies. Where things change rapidly and unexpectedly with no warning and no chance for the player base to prepare, leading to some things being "over tuned" due to artificially propped up attributes, until it gets changed or something new hits that's even stronger.
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Nitro
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Re: Clerics Need a Minor Buff

Post by Nitro » Fri Dec 29, 2017 10:19 pm

That's what I don't get though. Disregarding spellsword that might be overtuned and can be nerfed, let's look at Paladin and Ranger instead since you mentioned them being recipients of "Free numbers".

Would you honestly claim either paladin or ranger are more powerful than a standard fighter/rogue/WM? Or even as powerful? It's not like getting some of these 'free numbers' makes them magically above par with other classes, numbers are all about this games balance after all. Hell, even base D&D is all balanced around various numbers, and a weaponmaster doesn't become worse just because a paladin or ranger gets some extra stats, it just makes those two a bit more viable in comparison to the weaponmaster.

Kirito
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Re: Clerics Need a Minor Buff

Post by Kirito » Fri Dec 29, 2017 10:24 pm

This isn't a new direction, the server has long taken an approach of giving bones stats/A.C. etc to classes to bring them in line (take fighter for example, bonus a.c. at levels 5, 10, 15 bonus enchantment at 23...)

As to spellsword, that is simultaneously exactly what you describe and completely not what you describe. It didn't exist prior to the addition, so yes... it did get apr/ac/damage just by existing.

However it's not randomly given all that just because I felt like it or wanted to make it op. It's actually based on 2-3 actual d&d classes, the main driver being 2nd edition bladesinger (you will see a lot of parity there, like ac/damage coming from INT and no summons). It is overturned and that is being quite heavily discussed within the team to bring it back into line.

As others have said, it's foolish pushing other classes upward to match one overtuned path... its also not what is happening.

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BegoneThoth
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Re: Clerics Need a Minor Buff

Post by BegoneThoth » Fri Dec 29, 2017 10:31 pm

I didn't say they were better. I said "free numbers" were how classes got attention. And repeatedly said there's just no reason to play a class or archetype that has received no attention when you can play one that did. Moreso because the new stuff may either not apply to you as you're "grandfathered" or because you may go to great lengths to aquire things now given to you for free.

Additionally, you can make classes distinguished from one another by making actual mechanics instead of just bring slowly incriminating numbers. Wild mage is a good example, it's defined by what it can do and isn't propped up by free stuff, the stuff it gets is actually very unique and interesting. Warlock also manages to do this and is quite different from its parent class of bard due to a large change in mechanics.

Spell sword in the other hand is defined by d12 damage on hit effects, mysterious interactions not properly explained or documented, and free numbers for no reason.

Big difference, but we're exceeding the scope of the conversation.
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BegoneThoth
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Re: Clerics Need a Minor Buff

Post by BegoneThoth » Fri Dec 29, 2017 10:33 pm

Kirito wrote:This isn't a new direction, the server has long taken an approach of giving bones stats/A.C. etc to classes to bring them in line (take fighter for example, bonus a.c. at levels 5, 10, 15 bonus enchantment at 23...)

As to spellsword, that is simultaneously exactly what you describe and completely not what you describe. It didn't exist prior to the addition, so yes... it did get apr/ac/damage just by existing.

However it's not randomly given all that just because I felt like it or wanted to make it op. It's actually based on 2-3 actual d&d classes, the main driver being 2nd edition bladesinger (you will see a lot of parity there, like ac/damage coming from INT and no summons). It is overturned and that is being quite heavily discussed within the team to bring it back into line.

As others have said, it's foolish pushing other classes upward to match one overtuned path... its also not what is happening.
Fighter also synergies with weapon and armor skills and talents inherently as arms and armor is their domain.

But why does a spellsword get free CL and dispel resistance and discipline (not a wizard class skill) and more HP other then because someone felt like it needed it?

Why are they just better at casting some spells the wizards if not designed to be simply the best?

If they arnt, as you say, that's fine, it's another example of "take turns" balance. Which is fine since that seems to be the design goals here.
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Kirito
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Re: Clerics Need a Minor Buff

Post by Kirito » Fri Dec 29, 2017 10:38 pm

BegoneThoth wrote: Spell sword in the other hand is defined by d12 damage on hit effects, mysterious interactions not properly explained or documented, and free numbers for no reason.
What s not documented? (Wiki guys need to pick up the AB/APR changes and revise the shades imbues I already know).

As to the final comment, your welcome to your own opinion, but the fact of the matter is, those "free numbers for no reason" have a reason due to where the path came from... amazingly enough from a similar place to wild mage...

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BegoneThoth
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Re: Clerics Need a Minor Buff

Post by BegoneThoth » Fri Dec 29, 2017 10:39 pm

Kirito wrote:
BegoneThoth wrote: Spell sword in the other hand is defined by d12 damage on hit effects, mysterious interactions not properly explained or documented, and free numbers for no reason.
What s not documented? (Wiki guys need to pick up the AB/APR changes and revise the shades imbues I already know).

As to the final comment, your welcome to your own opinion, but the fact of the matter is, those "free numbers for no reason" have a reason due to where the path came from... amazingly enough from a similar place to wild mage...
I believe you answered your own questions there.
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Kirito
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Re: Clerics Need a Minor Buff

Post by Kirito » Fri Dec 29, 2017 10:44 pm

BegoneThoth wrote: discipline (not a wizard class skill) and more HP other then because someone felt like it needed it?

Why are they just better at casting some spells the wizards if not designed to be simply the best?
They get disc, because disc is a skill that one of the root classes it's designed from gets, although it probably should cap out at 33 with whatever skill dumps you make during the build.
Why do they get more GO, because bladesingers have higher HP.

And they aren't better at casting spells than a normal wizard... in fact they are worse at casting some spells than a normal wizard due to low INT

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Re: Clerics Need a Minor Buff

Post by Kirito » Fri Dec 29, 2017 10:47 pm

BegoneThoth wrote: I believe you answered your own questions there.
So patch notes don't count as documented... gotcha... 8-)

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BegoneThoth
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Re: Clerics Need a Minor Buff

Post by BegoneThoth » Fri Dec 29, 2017 10:54 pm

Kirito wrote:
BegoneThoth wrote: discipline (not a wizard class skill) and more HP other then because someone felt like it needed it?

Why are they just better at casting some spells the wizards if not designed to be simply the best?
They get disc, because disc is a skill that one of the root classes it's designed from gets, although it probably should cap out at 33 with whatever skill dumps you make during the build.
Why do they get more GO, because bladesingers have higher HP.

And they aren't better at casting spells than a normal wizard... in fact they are worse at casting some spells than a normal wizard due to low INT
They get free CL vs dispels. They are harder to dispel. That makes their spells better, as, believe it or not, int doesn't effect a lot of attributes of a lot of spells.

I also could be wrong here but I'm not seeing discipline or knockdown resistance or disarm resistance.

http://dnd.arkalseif.info/classes/races ... index.html

Again the souce doesn't matter. The intent was to make them better which is why they got these bonus numbers in lieu of interactive mechanics like the warlock or wild mage.
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BegoneThoth
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Re: Clerics Need a Minor Buff

Post by BegoneThoth » Fri Dec 29, 2017 10:57 pm

Oh and their mage armor is just three times as good. Just three times as good.
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Nitro
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Re: Clerics Need a Minor Buff

Post by Nitro » Fri Dec 29, 2017 11:10 pm

At this point you can probably just divert this discussion into one of the spellsword threads instead of derailing this one since it's sounding like you have a fair few gripes with that class that don't really have much to do with clerics.

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BegoneThoth
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Re: Clerics Need a Minor Buff

Post by BegoneThoth » Fri Dec 29, 2017 11:11 pm

Anyway, your personal views on balance are outside of the scope this conversation.


To stay on topic, I think we should give clerics what we've given two other classes on the server, that is, free AC, free attacks per round, some free saves, and perhaps wisdom to damage. We could also go the paladin route, and just give them all free Charisma as well, so that most clerics can make use of divine shield and stuff without a stat crisis.
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Re: Clerics Need a Minor Buff

Post by Ork » Fri Dec 29, 2017 11:18 pm

Thoth you're really losing all credibility here.

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Re: Clerics Need a Minor Buff

Post by flower » Fri Dec 29, 2017 11:28 pm

Kirito wrote: It is overturned and that is being quite heavily discussed within the team to bring it back into line.

.

I cannot help myself. It just reminds me, when year back team claimed barbarian bite back is broken, and will be replaced/removed and it took over a year before changes were put into game.

Edit: and it is true the recent changes were in fact just boosting numbers up. Free wis to paladins, new items with + charisma, upping up numbers of spells and their adjustment for paladins all leads to higher AC, AB, and damage before. Same with barbarian. I am not saying changes were bad or that i do not like them. It just changed the game enviroment and other classes were left behind. How others mentioned it, why even bother with cleric when paladins, BGs and similar divine meelers are more efficient.

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Re: Clerics Need a Minor Buff

Post by MalKalz » Fri Dec 29, 2017 11:44 pm

I’m just going to lock this since it’s been heavily derailed with personal grievances with development team decisions. If you have an issue, please make a suggestion and not derail every feedback thread that comes into existence that has nothing to do with what you are posting on.

Also, all changes are documented and presented on the forum. When a contributor provides you something in game, they are trying to bring something new. Constantly slamming stuff and pointing fingers at the team does nothing but discourage further content - we are truly in an era of entitlement that shouldn’t exist. Constructive criticism is always welcome, however. Not childish ranting.

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