Clerics Need a Minor Buff

[High Primate]

Edit: I've revised my suggestion again to something simpler: make a few of the cleric's damage buffs, like Divine Power, Prayer, and Battletide, just a bit heftier, enough to give them an additional 8 or so points of damage on average when fully buffed. They would be short-term damage dealers, but it's still not more damage than the more melee-focused builds (they'll generally crit in the 80s).

I'll also concede that the recent nerf to Div. Power scrolls is a step in the right direction. Still.

Again, the key word here is minor. They're basically less damaging, more fragile Brycers with lower saves, a longer windup time, a somewhat short-term power surge to their AB, and access to some decent spells, though the spell power is balanced by their lower CL. They also don't get to keep expertise while applying their buffs, unlike charisma-meleers, further balancing out spellcasting and the damage output they can achieve.

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It seems that, subtly but surely, clerics have been depowered just a bit too much, enough that they are now eclipsed by some of the other classes, namely spellswords.

To my mind, the major discrepancy between these two classes is that while spellswords can add more properties to magical weapons, battleclerics can't. (Rangers and Paladins also can)

My suggestion is fairly straightforward: allow the cleric to add up to one weapon buff to a non-bronze weapon, like Darkfire or GMW.

This seems like a perfectly reasonable tweak, and should put clerics on relatively even footing with some of the other melee classes.

The obvious objection is that GMW only needs 15 levels to be +5, and that clerics are now too powerful against Premonition. My thoughts on this are that when you consider just how easily a mage can dispel your typical battlecleric, along with the really lengthy buffing time they require, along with the fact that most of the top-tier melee-ers out there can cut down Premonition anyway in a few rounds, it's not really overpowered.

If people still think this is too powerful, then it could be offset as follows:

1. Tweak GMW entirely so that it now requires 26 CL to get to the +5 enchantment. This might be worth looking into, given the changes to Paladins and Rangers.

2. Cap GMW at +4 if it's cast on a non-bronze weapon.

Again, I'm not raving about clerics being severely underpowered, but my basic point is that they should be balanced to put them on a par, especially, with spellswords and paladins.

[Lorkas]

Clerics shouldn't be as powerful in and of themselves as a paladin or spellsword. A cleric is already nearly as strong in melee as either of those, but with a built-in ability to summon the powerful Arelith elementals as well.

[High Primate]

If they take the conjuration route, which not all of them do.

[cptcuddlepants]

I brought this up a few times when Spellsword came out (Spellswords are basically battleclerics with no weaknesses) and was told that battleclerics are still the most powerful class.

1. Tweak GMW entirely so that it now requires 26 CL to get to the +5 enchantment. This might be worth looking into, given the changes to Paladins and Rangers.

You'd have to be a full caster cleric to take advantage of that - would a battlecleric just need to keep a caster cleric in their pocket, to get a +5 enhancement from GMW?

2. Cap GMW at +4 if it's cast on a non-bronze weapon.

How would this work? Would it stack with the basic enhancements on, say, a Masterly Damask Rapier, or would it replace it entirely to make it +4 AB/+4 damage instead of +3 AB/+6 damage?

The latter wouldn't help too much, especially on a Lesser Moonblade (already has a +4 enhancement bonus)

[flower]

Go ahead, také away elementals.

Elementals aren't that big advantage. Clerics have harder time mid level (everything is succesfully dispelling you), and only summons help them out.

Elemental is gone on single use of a a scroll also. Spellswords and paladins on the other hand are nearly undispellable (both classes receive bonus vs dispel?!).

Spellsword can take defense from abjuration as bonus class feats and paladins when going paladin/melee levels are hard to dispel as well so both receiving that bonus versus dispelling is unjustified.

And last. Paladins and spellswords all get dispel on hit. Paladin with CL26 for dispel check will almost always dispel any battlecleric and spellsword has dispel rated in % without any dispel check. And barbarian on top of that places ASF which cannot be avoided.

[High Primate]

and was told that battleclerics are still the most powerful class.

Whoever said this should have the words "Git Bad" permanently embroidered on their clothing in red.

[Lorkas]

If they take the conjuration route, which not all of them do.

Even without conjuration, a cleric can still summon a powerful elemental that the spellsword and paladin don't have access to. Just not as powerful as a con cleric.

Anyway, what are you gonna do, take away these proposed buffs if the cleric does go conjuration? The cleric would be way overpowered if they had an elder elemental and were even stronger in melee than they are now.

Elemental is gone on single use of a a scroll also.

Not if protected with spell resistance. The elementals on Arelith are amazingly strong and shouldn't be hand-waved away from balance considerations.

[High Primate]

I don't think this would make them overpowered. Given what some of the other classes are capable of, and given the cleric's other weaknesses, I just don't see this as being overpowered, i.e., imbalanced. Those elementals can be dealt with in a lot of ways (not the least of which is simply casting dispel on the bcleric, which will probably both remove the elemental and several of its combat buffs).

[flower]

There have been many changes on arelith in past years:
Meelers
-creeping up AB and Ac, matching ammount of clerics or even a bit higher
-increasing damage, outperforming clerics in burst dmg
-gaining ability for powerful / infinite summons

Casters
-no save abilities from wild mage and many other boons by it
-infinite spells on spell focuses. Why clerics got none?

Many special items, which now took away cleric(s advantage of fully enchanted gear. Clerics received minor spell changes (meteor, earthquake, aura of protection from aligment..) and implosion got nerfed. The worst thing is that majority of clerical offensive spells are reflex save for half damage, low circle, and everyone knows where it ends when majority characters get hands onto rogue class and lots of ref save.

What would help to clerics:
When taking 21st level of cleric, grant them +3 vs dispel.
-it will allow bigger flexibility for players, taking more levels elsewhere or be harder to dispel

Remove ref saves from their low level offensive spells. Or increase their damage. Or just add another save for will, granting these spells secondary effect so when reflex save negates damage it deals secondary effect onto PCs and NPCs (mini stun for 3 secs, and so on).

Add infinite spells as arcane casters have, for each greater spell focus.

[Baron Saturday]

I could see giving epic clerics +3 CL v dispels or changing GMW to be a stacking, +1/5 levels, 1 turn/level spell.

[LichBait]

Biggest weakness of battleclerics is they're dispel bait with 23 levels of cleric. Otherwise they're pretty golden. I'm the player of a battlecleric myself, and I just avoid places with mobs that constantly spam dispel 5+ times in a row. Not that avoidance is a great solution, mind you.

[Improv]

One thing I would suggest is creating additional cleric paths that really cater to the different deities.

Battleclerics and monk dipped healers are the most effective builds but they only "fit" so many deities. I think there ought to be options to encourage sneaky dex-based clerics, clerics who are more like divine mages (maybe accessing the infinite GSF spells and gaining extra focuses or metamagic in exchange for losing melee capability), a HIPS shadow cleric to match shadow mages-- that's just three but there could be a dozen more.

The aspects also need to really be looked at. Just as an example I was trying a trickery-only cleric recently. You desperately need high bluff to raise piety but that's not a class skill you have, nor do you get a lot of skill points to play with when dumping, nor are you able to make up for it in the enchanting pool since you don't have the feats to burn for enchanting skill focuses. And of course being chaotic the healer/monk thing wasn't an option, and cleric/rogue is so suboptimal I made them strength based, which really did not fit the sneaky cleric mold I was going for. It's not impossible to do it-- as a cleric/bard they are okay enough-- but it's really not the character I wanted to play.

Rant over, but even more than making battleclerics comparable to spellswords I think there would be a real cleric renaissance if you could really make a character that would match the religions.

[Tarkus the dog]

I don't know which video game you have been playing but the cleric class absolutely does not need a buff.

Healer clerics are second or third in line ( after bard ) on the top support classes on Arelith. STR clerics are absolutely busted if you play them properly. If your concern is being dispelled by mages, then that is something you should work on as a player and not ask for an easy fix to the single loop hole that the class has.

If you are suggesting that they be balanced on par with spellswords and paladins, it is the spellswords and paladins that should be nerfed and not the other way around. Paladins to lose their extra CL and spellswords their damage shenanigans which make every scythe weapon master look like a little puppy in comparison.

I have played a few clerics in the past and I have teared my hair every single time I was insta-dispelled by Arelith's "Improved" AI. They may have this issue in PvE ( which there are ways to avoid ), but any buff towards their CL or damage will make them even more unbalanced.

[Shadowy Reality]

Frankly, it's every other new class or class rework, coupled with some new racial weapons and items that have been pushing the limits higher and higher.

I always argued that WM damage was already too high, now you can do much worse, with both Barbarian and Spellsword. 500 HP is nothing when folk are constantly doing criticals over 150, coupled with mini-stuns and damage shields.

[flower]

It is easier to do minor changes to cleric than to overhaul four or five other classes fully.

[Ironsoul]

I don’t think Clerics need a buff at all.

GMW and Magic Vestments are dispel immune anyway so that’s 10 AC and a reliable weapon even in the face of dispel spam - which is quite comfortable for all the areas you’re solo’ing.

Cleric is one of the most powerful and verstile classes in the game with no real downside. Mine is basically a full rogue, tank, healer and clutch spell caster. The only weakness is high level dispels which can be avoided or mitigated by teamwork and planning in my opinion - no different then any other class except you fill lots of roles.

[Wytchee]

You know the power creep is real when we're talking about buffing ****in' clerics.

Wew.

[BegoneThoth]

A lot of newish classes get flat bonus's to AC, discipline, caster level, and damage, by merely existing (something other classes have to spend feats on, for example, but stack with those feats as well). The classes that didn't have simply fallen far behind. Clerics need a buff to keep up with spellsword, as do other classes.

[Wytchee]

I'm serious about power creep, though. We should be balancing down, not up. Otherwise, it's an endless progression towards ever more godly builds.

Everything in PvE already has insane saves as it is. DC mages are crapola on Arelith.

[High Primate]

You know the power creep is real when we're talking about buffing ****in' clerics.

Wew.

I'm not going to go into the why, but honestly, they were never that powerful, or at least they have not been in a long time. At face value, you'd think they are, and while they're not bad, they're outclassed by most other melee builds in the standard meta. Ask about this in Discord if you wanna hear more.

[Wytchee]

You know the power creep is real when we're talking about buffing ****in' clerics.

Wew.

I'm not going to go into the why, but honestly, they were never that powerful, or at least they have not been in a long time. At face value, you'd think they are, and while they're not bad, they're outclassed by most other melee builds in the standard meta.

I wasn't weighing on on whether or not they need a buff. I'm more concerned with, as I said, power creep, 'cause I don't want Arelith to become a playground for Melees while DC mages are rendered comically useless which they more or less already are.

[BegoneThoth]

As it is Spellswords can camp at like 65ish AC with obscene damage. They're the new standard for melee builds in terms of raw numbers, and also get full arcane spells.

As a cleric you're behind in skills, ab, damage, utility spells, and AC when compared to both fight/wm and SS, and you need to deal with piety so I hope you like war deities. Class has been rendered irrelevant, but SS did that to a lot of classes.

Perhaps giving clerics free damage and APR and discipline and ac and ab and unique utility so they can keep up with spellswords given they're both spellcasting fighters that don't get discipline inherently?

edit; Also give them more effectiveness on their spells (like a SS's mage armor) and more CL to keep up with SS.

[High Primate]

I would say clerics are actually pretty good AC wise--the standard bcleric can get 66, at least. I still agree that they could be more balanced with the other meleers, though.

Again, I think they're OK. They're just lagging behind given some of the other changes, and I think the imbalance can be solved with some very minimal tweaks, whereas balancing several other classes down would be more of a hassle for both the devs and the players.

[Wytchee]

Not all clerics are battle clerics, also...

Maybe "battle cleric" should be its own path, so we don't have caster clerics running around with all these goodies you're proposing.

[High Primate]

Heck, forget GMW, simply allowing them to cast darkfire on any weapon would be enough, in my book, provided they can only cast it on themselves.