Andunor Port

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JediMindTrix
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Andunor Port

Post by JediMindTrix » Tue Dec 26, 2017 10:43 pm

Good
- More shops is good.
- Interior shops are nice to look at and laid out well.
- Adding a boat to the Burning Shores/Zurkhwood Grove is greatly appreciated
- I like the design of the embassy.
EDIT: I rather enjoyed the embassy conversations and the Duergar NPCs.

Bad
- No cobbler, wtf?? isn't it about time boots came to Andunor?
- Destitude slave next to Destitute slave
- No music
- The actual port area is honestly feels really empty to me and therefore a little on the blandside, not the busy and not the bustling port Andunor honestly feels like it should be

EDIT: Suggestions:
- Characters that are purely there for conversation.
- Some more wandering, thematic NPC's (like more dock laborers)
- Music

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LichBait
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Re: Andunor Port

Post by LichBait » Wed Dec 27, 2017 1:25 pm

I did note the lack of music. I thought that was just me for whatever reason, heh.

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Re: Andunor Port

Post by Fallout » Wed Dec 27, 2017 3:08 pm

put theme music from the Pit Town area, it would be nice to kudos that old place as bit of its sent is felt wihtin the Port. :)

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Maladus
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Re: Andunor Port

Post by Maladus » Sat Dec 30, 2017 12:31 am

This actually makes me think of a question with regards to area building and design. Is there a technical/perf reason that there aren’t more NPC’s wondering around cities? I know there isn’t an advanced system like the Radiant system from Skyrim to give all these NPC’s behaviors, but wouldn’t it be possible to give them simple patrol routes, or even just have them simply stay in one place with a simple line of dialogue? This would add a lot to making the areas feel more populated than they are now, but I don’t know what limitations there are to it.

Maybe one of the builders can provide input.

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Re: Andunor Port

Post by Irongron » Sat Dec 30, 2017 1:21 am

Maladus wrote:This actually makes me think of a question with regards to area building and design. Is there a technical/perf reason that there aren’t more NPC’s wondering around cities? I know there isn’t an advanced system like the Radiant system from Skyrim to give all these NPC’s behaviors, but wouldn’t it be possible to give them simple patrol routes, or even just have them simply stay in one place with a simple line of dialogue? This would add a lot to making the areas feel more populated than they are now, but I don’t know what limitations there are to it.

Maybe one of the builders can provide input.
This is going to be quite a long answer I'm afraid!

So, first let me say that NPCs can patrol, sit down, worship, dance, aimlessly wander etc, and you'll see that quite a lot. Some NPCs are stationary, others not.

Until relatively recently we always had to make sure not to have too many NPCS in an area, as it would affect performance, on modern machines this is far less of an issue, so generally you'll see a lot more NPCs in more recently made settlements/cities, compare Myon (very old) to Cordor, for example.

When making Cordor we also added in a lot of more NPC functionailty. Some will walk into the city only at night, or during the day for example, others, like on the Outskirt Ship spawn in only infrequently (the ship can have different passengers at different times), in addition to this there is the 'occasional spawn' system, most generally used for rare enemies, but also used for NPCs, such as the Spire Rangers, the Rare Book Sellers, and Planar Travellers that pop up (even in Cordor).

Its really no issue adding in more NPCs, though it takes time, and creativity. Andunor port needs more, for sure, but from a game design perspective I do also have to consider functionality. Too many dialog only NPCs can leave some players frustrated as they search for those that actually 'do stuff' (merchants/henchmen/boatmen etc). Don't misunderstand me though, I really like 'pure RP' NPCs, but there has to be a limit. Therefore really the best thing to do when considering a population increase of NPCs, is to come up with ideas for more functions - something the players can actually make use of. They don't all need it of course, but I do feel that it should generally be more that a 50/50 divide.

My asking for contributions can help here, but there is quality to consider, and simply the time it takes adding them in. I'm not fond of any randomly generated NPCs though, as it is something I would generally find highly artificial.

In the past I've toyed with the idea of giving players an 'offline' option for their character, where they would sometimes remain as an NPC when logging out. This would cause issues though, with their dialog, the possibility of abuse, or DMs accidentally using them.

The best thing though, of course, is more players, which with EE we may well see. 150 players in Cordor alone and it would soon feel very crowded.

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Maladus
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Re: Andunor Port

Post by Maladus » Sat Dec 30, 2017 4:04 am

That’s an interesting point about the dialog NPC’s causing frustration, I hadn’t really thought about that. I wish I knew more about NWNScript and had more time, I have often thought about offering to volunteer my time to help make new areas but with me working full-time and sometimes more than that (as deadlines typically go) I don’t think I’d be able to contribute. But perhaps I can think up some unique ideas for NPC’s for Andunor. Could be a fun challenge, even if they aren’t used.
Last edited by Maladus on Sat Dec 30, 2017 4:30 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Andunor Port

Post by Cortex » Sat Dec 30, 2017 4:06 am

Personally I'm a huge fan of world building NPCs, and would love to see more NPCs that interwine with present, past or future happenings of the module, or other NPCs. Things that take a bit of looking into to make sense out of it or an underlying plot, which may just be pointless to the player but breaths life to the world.

example: Joe and Ana are married, and Joe is always disgruntled, and Ana speaks very little. Their child Mary speaks ill of their parents, and every other night, Ana is seen going into Bob's house.

It's nothing big, but implies something nasty is happening with the NPCs of the world, and aren't there just to be merchants or just generic space filling NPC.
:)

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Re: Andunor Port

Post by cptcuddlepants » Sat Dec 30, 2017 4:09 am

Maladus wrote:That’s an interesting point about the dialog NPC’s causing frustration, I hadn’t really thought about that.
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Maladus
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Re: Andunor Port

Post by Maladus » Sat Dec 30, 2017 4:31 am

Well, I was talking about NPC’s who only have a line or two of dialog after you talk to them.

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Re: Andunor Port

Post by Ork » Sat Dec 30, 2017 6:34 am

I've been thinking about this a lot, and what I realized is that areas need a natural focal point. Wharftown had outside the Shanty, Cordor had aristoltlus street, etc. Both the Hub & the Port don't flow.

In the Hub the natural focal point should be the main entrance but it isn't because flow isn't restricted to a line but becomes more of a V shape which leaves very little room for congregates. The Port is frustrating because it has only one entrance, but the entrance points are all over the place. There is no flow.

I know loitering has been looked down upon in the past, but truly if you have only a finite amount of time to play ..it's good to know where you can immediately find RP.

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Re: Andunor Port

Post by Improv » Mon Jan 01, 2018 8:48 pm

I quite like the Hub.

The fork and splitting and multiple entrances and exits means you can be a little cagey if you're careful about who you run into. There also seems to be plenty of congregating going on, both by the shops and portal. No it's not one big group but the UD is all about splintered little factions.

The Cordor model of everyone by the entrance staring at everyone who passes by works up there but I think the UD is generally too intimidating for that. Still, if you want to find someone to interact with there's a good chance you can do so at the Hub.

The port definitely feels empty. I don't know if that's good or bad. It seems like it's supposed to be a very shady and dangerous place where you do what you need to do and move on quickly, in which case a bunch of people loitering like teenagers at a mall food court might not be appropriate.

JediMindTrix
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Re: Andunor Port

Post by JediMindTrix » Tue Jan 02, 2018 8:05 am

Cortex wrote:Personally I'm a huge fan of world building NPCs,
This is basically what I feel the area is missing, and the server would benefit from more of.

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Re: Andunor Port

Post by nobs3 » Wed Jan 03, 2018 9:37 pm

IMO:
To make the port more attractive I would not follow the (new) line of distributed shops combined with quarters. Many people don’t like long walks (as they don’t like endless dialogues). The shops at the shipyard or the farm and most of all the one at the mine are not much visited. The best shops are in the Hub and at the two central markets in the Table and the Sharps (even the shops in the Sharphouse or at the colosseum are less attractive than the ones outside).
So I would:
- make a third central market in the docks
- let the gondola dock right at the central place
- add another special NPC merchant (and make the all-things-buying-goblin even more attractive)
- and maybe the duergars can get an official function (like handing out a trade licence...)

To make the Hub (and most of all the Web tavern) even more attractive I would combine it with the Web inners. The main meeting place should have a bar! It is sad to see people waiting for something to happen or someone to meet standing in the Hub instead of standing or sitting in a tavern. Also I would make the Cloak and Dagger a dark backroom bar accessible from the Hub/Web.

But I am no builder, don't know if it would fit to the concept, and I guess it would be very much work. Just brainstorming....

JediMindTrix
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Re: Andunor Port

Post by JediMindTrix » Wed Jan 31, 2018 6:48 pm

I noticed there's a boot cobbler now in the port district and I just wanted to say thank you for listening to our feedback!

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Re: Andunor Port

Post by Ork » Wed Jan 31, 2018 7:42 pm

After playing around with the Port a little bit more, I've grown to love it. The Embassy of Gracklstugh is amazing fluff & I love seeing the Duergars chilling out there by the fire.

Personally I was just saddened that there is only one way to get there. I'd love to explore the sprawl beneath Andunor. Maybe even make beneath the city even more chaotic than the two other sectors.

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Re: Andunor Port

Post by nobs3 » Wed Jan 31, 2018 11:04 pm

Ork wrote:After playing around with the Port a little bit more, I've grown to love it. The Embassy of Gracklstugh is amazing fluff & I love seeing the Duergars chilling out there by the fire.

Personally I was just saddened that there is only one way to get there. I'd love to explore the sprawl beneath Andunor. Maybe even make beneath the city even more chaotic than the two other sectors.
Yes a tunnel system connecting lower caves beneath the city (from port over the weels to Sharps) with quarters in the more tribal / monster race style would be a thing. (e.g. huts for gnolls, tribal tents and stone buildings for orogs, caves for goblins and ogres, sunken tower ruins for kobolds)

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Re: Andunor Port

Post by Freyason » Wed Jan 31, 2018 11:08 pm

D-doesn't something like that (not as elaborate) exist already?

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Re: Andunor Port

Post by Durvayas » Thu Feb 01, 2018 12:03 am

You can get to the port via tunnel from the slums, but you basically emerge from a sewer pipe. Something more street level from the sharps or the west wheel(weird that the port doesn't connect to the trade hub via a bridge or something) would be great.
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Re: Andunor Port

Post by Freyason » Thu Feb 01, 2018 3:52 am

Uppity drow don't want to get boots muddy? :)

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Re: Andunor Port

Post by StandingOnTheShouldersOfGiants » Thu Feb 01, 2018 6:44 am

nobs3 wrote: Also I would make the Cloak and Dagger a dark backroom bar accessible from the Hub/Web.
Just a small thing. It's The Cathedral Opium Den and Pleasure House. It hasn't been the Cloak and Dagger for over a year and a half. Also, it already is a shady backroom bar.

Sorry for interrupting. Proceed.

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Re: Andunor Port

Post by Miaou » Thu Feb 01, 2018 8:38 am

A comment on a certain type of NPC. Wandering NPCs.

If a NPC is patrolling a path that is used simply for travel, like the guard by the Cordor museum or the dwarf walking above brog's port, it's neat and cool. Can get a nice feel that a location is traveled.

What's annoying is the aimlessly wandering ones. They love to click fixtures and their pathing often gets stuck on PCs. Awkward patron in the Nomad heavily breathing on your neck while you are trying to eat is an example.

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Re: Andunor Port

Post by Harasha » Thu Feb 01, 2018 8:43 am

Ork wrote:After playing around with the Port a little bit more, I've grown to love it. The Embassy of Gracklstugh is amazing fluff & I love seeing the Duergars chilling out there by the fire.
.
I think I said this somewhere before, but it would be cool if Duergar PCs had access to an exclusive meeting hall there. The embassy now is nice and has a few amenities but it would be much more awesome if PCs were able to make it feel more lived in.

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Re: Andunor Port

Post by Diilicious » Thu Feb 01, 2018 3:13 pm

forgive my ignorance but i thought andunor was underground?? why would it have a port.. or.. how? o:
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Re: Andunor Port

Post by Baron Saturday » Thu Feb 01, 2018 3:29 pm

Diilicious wrote:forgive my ignorance but i thought andunor was underground?? why would it have a port.. or.. how? o:
Massive caverns under the sea... I would assume there's a few leaks?

The UD has had a significant water presence since the flood that destroyed the old UD settlements - just look at the Outpost, the gondolas in Andunor, heck, the Dreadnought! There's a map room in there if you want to see the builder's interpretation.
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Re: Andunor Port

Post by ActionReplay » Thu Feb 01, 2018 6:23 pm

Oceans and lakes are not uncommon in the UD. The Glimmersea is a huge ocean in the UD for instance:
http://forgottenrealms.wikia.com/wiki/Glimmersea

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