Could greensteel use a buff?

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Lord_khaine
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Could greensteel use a buff?

Post by Lord_khaine » Tue Dec 12, 2017 1:10 pm

I mean, looking at it mathematically, and with a basic longword as an example, then the keen propety only provides a average damage increase of 10%

(its 10% addional chance to deliver an ekstra 100% damage, that equals 10% more damage on average)

So looking at green steel, then it has a +1 to hit, and keen, but loses 4 points of damage compared to a weapon made of masterly steel.

If we want to make things simple, and just say +1 to hit is equal to one additional damage, then it still means a greensteel weapon trades out keen in return for losing 3 points of damage.

And the conclusion of all this, is that unless you deal 30 points of damage on a regular melee hit, or need a +3 weapon to penetrate damage reduction, then a masterly steel weapon is going to be better for you.

Thats then not even taking into consideration that some things are plain immune to critical hits, or that critts are more likely to lead to overkill.

But anyway, thoughs? Any desire for delivering more evidence on any of my conclusions, or to expand on them?

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Scurvy Cur
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Re: Could greensteel use a buff?

Post by Scurvy Cur » Tue Dec 12, 2017 3:38 pm

It's helpful to look at greensteel as an alternative, mid game, to damask. For some characters that have a lot of damage from other sources, a greensteel weapon is a solid go-to before they get their masterly damask.


Lord_khaine
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Re: Could greensteel use a buff?

Post by Lord_khaine » Tue Dec 12, 2017 8:58 pm

I guess that is true, though it would need to be an awful lot of damage from those sources. I have trouble figuring out what options there is other than levels in weapon master. At least before the epic levels.

And it just seemed like a waste when one of the limited number of materials were only useable by a small segment of the player base?

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One Two Three Five
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Re: Could greensteel use a buff?

Post by One Two Three Five » Tue Dec 12, 2017 9:07 pm

Cleric, spellsword, and bard should get decent use out of it. Paladin too, I bet. All classes with a spare source of extra damage multiplied on crits. (barbs too.)
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Hunter548
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Re: Could greensteel use a buff?

Post by Hunter548 » Tue Dec 12, 2017 9:32 pm

I used greensteel on my paladin for a while, yeah. Eventually traded it in for a custom enchanted sword, but greensteel's still a good choice.
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Lord_khaine
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Re: Could greensteel use a buff?

Post by Lord_khaine » Sun Dec 17, 2017 8:49 pm

One Two Three Five wrote:Cleric, spellsword, and bard should get decent use out of it. Paladin too, I bet. All classes with a spare source of extra damage multiplied on crits. (barbs too.)
Well its just that even with that extra damage they need to do more than 30 points of damage per hit for it to be worth changing. And thats just for breaking even, and ignoring damage wasted on overkill, or undeads/golems who ignore keen.

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Scurvy Cur
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Re: Could greensteel use a buff?

Post by Scurvy Cur » Sun Dec 17, 2017 9:23 pm

tl;dr: a mid game weapon with situational utility for builds which reliably do loads of damage (for reference, wm builds, paladins, clerics, even str rangers before they get their +4 blade thirst and a custom basin weapon all do enough damage per hit to make greensteel a reasonable choice for a good portion of their career) categorically does not need a buff.

Greensteel is not meant to be a competitor with m.damask for most builds. On some builds, but not all, and for some weapons, but not all, it will outperform regular damask.

This is fine.


Lord_khaine
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Re: Could greensteel use a buff?

Post by Lord_khaine » Sun Dec 17, 2017 10:42 pm

Scurvy Cur wrote:tl;dr: a mid game weapon with situational utility for builds which reliably do loads of damage (for reference, wm builds, paladins, clerics, even str rangers before they get their +4 blade thirst and a custom basin weapon all do enough damage per hit to make greensteel a reasonable choice for a good portion of their career) categorically does not need a buff.

Greensteel is not meant to be a competitor with m.damask for most builds. On some builds, but not all, and for some weapons, but not all, it will outperform regular damask.

This is fine.
Why make a response if you dont actually read the initial post, or the explanation it contains?
Because a comparison with with damask or masterful damask is irellevant if its Masterly Steel that outperform green steel on a majority of builds pre epic.

So far i can only think of weapon masters that will be able to make decent use of this. Because i cant see how Paladins, rangers or clerics will reach 30+ damage on a normal hit.

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Aodh Lazuli
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Re: Could greensteel use a buff?

Post by Aodh Lazuli » Sun Dec 17, 2017 11:27 pm

Lord_khaine wrote:Because i cant see how Paladins, rangers or clerics will reach 30+ damage on a normal hit.
Paladins have bless weapon, which now adds an enchantment bonus (damage and AB) to their weapon.

Rangers have blade thirst, which also adds an enhancement bonus to the weapon.

At the sort of level range you're talking about, those spells make greensteel functionally equivalent to a keened damask weapon.
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Nitro
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Re: Could greensteel use a buff?

Post by Nitro » Sun Dec 17, 2017 11:33 pm

Aodh Lazuli wrote:
Lord_khaine wrote:Because i cant see how Paladins, rangers or clerics will reach 30+ damage on a normal hit.
Paladins have bless weapon, which now adds an enchantment bonus (damage and AB) to their weapon.

Rangers have blade thirst, which also adds an enhancement bonus to the weapon.

At the sort of level range you're talking about, those spells make greensteel functionally equivalent to a keened damask weapon.
But by that logic, you might as well save some cash and enchant a bronze weapon with keen and some elemental properties.

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Aodh Lazuli
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Re: Could greensteel use a buff?

Post by Aodh Lazuli » Mon Dec 18, 2017 12:54 am

Nitro wrote:But by that logic, you might as well save some cash and enchant a bronze weapon with keen and some elemental properties.
Bronze with keen and two 1d4 elemental damage enchantments would need an epic enchanter, I think.

Greensteel and a +4 essence, would not (and is therefore probably more affordable for those mid-level types).

Later on, yeah.... It's probably better for those classes to mess about with 5% enchantments on bronze.
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flower
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Re: Could greensteel use a buff?

Post by flower » Mon Dec 18, 2017 9:44 am

Many mobs are immune to +2 ab weapons.

There is no room to improve greensteel weapons without them competeting with top weapons. Also, také a note that all weapons having more properties AND keen at once are special items needing rare ingrediences.

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Re: Could greensteel use a buff?

Post by yellowcateyes » Mon Dec 18, 2017 4:59 pm

Greensteel is a mid-level alternative on weapon progression, and is not meant to compete with or replace end-game gear. Whether that gear is damask steel, a crafted racial weapon or 5% enchanted bronze.
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