"Racist" and Other Anachronisms

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Opustus
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Re: "Racist" and Other Anachronisms

Post by Opustus » Thu Nov 09, 2017 1:47 pm

The point is, the world in which our characters interact is informed by not only FR lore, but also our opinions, morality, and worldviews as players. The same applies to our characters: although the name of the game is make-believe, our characters are constructions of our imagination, and how we act through our characters is not apart from the real world either. Even if we are not our characters, our characters are inescapably us. I think the real world, with its topical issues, SHOULD be a part of our RP, because the world of Arelith is informed by the real world through our characters and us as players.

We may claim that lorewise in FR religions allow homosexuality. However, we may still encounter homophobia in-game, which calls on our character to respond in a certain way. If our character thinks this hateful attitude towards a sexuality is wrong, the player should be able to communicate this. As players, we attach meanings to our characters. One character may be conservative and think homosexuality is sin; the other may be liberal and think all expressions of sexuality should be celebrated. These are meanings we derive from the real world, not the world of Arelith itself.

I strongly disagree with the claim that we could not address many of the problems we face in our lives through our games. I understand that certain things like Christianity, Trump, or nation states do not exist in our game world. But ideas, politics, morality, and language coexist with Arelith.

I understand and agree that things which are not real in the real world are real in Arelith (magic, planar evil and good etc.) and they must be played as such. But for me, to say that "tieflings are bad and your character can't say that calling tieflings is bad, because tieflings are really bad" is something that I think is not for the DMs or other players to decide. My opinion is that that should be our prerogative as players to play our characters as we choose. The other players respond to this through their own characters as they deem appropriate. If it feels too contemporary or breaks immersion of our characters to hold the view that tieflings are not innately evil (even if they were lorewise), we should accept it as players. As our characters, we can say that the guy who thinks that is cuckoo and silly or wrong or whatever.
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Re: "Racist" and Other Anachronisms

Post by High Primate » Thu Nov 09, 2017 2:23 pm

I don't know if it has already been said, because I haven't read the whole thread, but there is a faction in Planescape that sometimes goes by the name "Anarchists".
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Re: "Racist" and Other Anachronisms

Post by Mr_Rieper » Thu Nov 09, 2017 2:48 pm

Let's really get down to the meat of the issue here, though. We can explain our reasoning again and again, but ultimately it comes down to a very simple reason. It always does.

Why do you want to be able to call people racists and homophobes in game?

It seems like you want to do this simply for the sake of expressing yourself. That if you have the urge to do so, you can, and nobody will censor you. Which is understandable because nobody likes boundaries in a sandbox, and that is what Arelith is. It is a sandbox, guided by an overarching narrative that is created by players.

The world in which we interact is informed by our RL opinions, morality and worldviews? It's our job as roleplayers to seperate IC and OOC. Beaming knowledge into your characters head about 21st century problems is something that should never happen intentionally.

It's fine to lampshade topical issues, if you do it subtlety. If I was reading a novel like Bashagain described, with its modern and out of place political subtext, I'd throw it across the room in an instant. This is why most writers use metaphors or allegories, instead of outright shoving issues in people's faces.

The reason why homosexuality was so reviled is BECAUSE the big three religions were responsible for the spread of information and the ideals of what a moral person should be. So for one, that didn't happen in FR. None of the major religions or their gods oppose homosexuality. Not even the evil ones. So they would have no reason to spread that message of hate, and therefore everybody would react to it on an individual basis. There would be no systemic oppression of gay people.

Secondly, morality in RL and FR are very, VERY different things, simply because in FR, the boogeyman, devils, demons and worshippers of ruinous powers are very, VERY real and are coming to get you. You can't take the moral high ground by focusing on societal issues unless it was in your god's dogma, simply because there are always bigger fish to fry. Who cares about two people insulting one another when everybody's souls are at risk unless they are faithful?
Opustus wrote:One character may be conservative and think homosexuality is sin; the other may be liberal and think all expressions of sexuality should be celebrated. These are meanings we derive from the real world, not the world of Arelith itself.
Here's the problem. We need to understand that FR is a fictional world, where our problems don't exist. We can make connections or draw comparisons, but straight-up dragging our issues into the game is NOT good for this server. We cannot, as players, think that projecting these issues onto the world is a good thing, because it isn't. It's not good for others, and ultimately comes full circle and therefore is not good for ourselves. What you are referring to is the result of hundreds of years worth of politics. Imagine a world where things evolved very differently. This. Is. That. World.

I've warned against this from watching people say that Amn = Spain so therefore Amnians speak spanish or Cormyr = France, this sort of oversimplification is dangerous and damaging to the integrity of the world we play in. Be proactive and build, not lazy and plagiarize from RL. Be curious about FR lore, not ignorant of it.
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Re: "Racist" and Other Anachronisms

Post by The GrumpyCat » Thu Nov 09, 2017 3:39 pm

I agree with absolutley everything Rieper has said, he's really nailed it in his post, with the exception of one small detail:
Why do you want to be able to call people racists and homophobes in game?
It's not even that. It's why would you like to use that term a lot.

We are not saying you cannot gently explore these issues. We are just asking you to avoid exploring them in a ham fisted manner. We are not saying you cannot ever mention that such-and-such a person is racist, we're asking you not to run around after them, yelling "THEY ARE A RACIST, A FILTHY RACIST, THEY ARE A COMPLETE RACIST AND WE SHOULD ALL HATE THEM BECAUSE THEY ARE A RACIST."

It's upsetting to the player, it rarely fits with the lore, and it's just generally jarring.
I strongly disagree with the claim that we could not address many of the problems we face in our lives through our games. I understand that certain things like Christianity, Trump, or nation states do not exist in our game world. But ideas, politics, morality, and language coexist with Arelith.
We're not saying you can't explore such concepts- personally I encourage it. But I'd also encourage doing so carefully. We are not saying 'You cannot roleplay racism, or any response to racism.' We are saying 'avoid using that particuar word too much.'
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Re: "Racist" and Other Anachronisms

Post by Gods_Kill_People » Thu Nov 09, 2017 3:49 pm

Fairly stop and think about it in real life, how often is the term Racist used? What context do we use it in? When I think of the term Racist, I think of people using the "N" word for a black person, and I personally find them to be the most horrible people there are. That is not a word that should be just thrown around, there are so many other terms for people, also, it can be implied without ever using that word...

Example 1:

"Hey, that guy there, he spit on that elf, beat up three others, and killed a bunch near Myon, he must hate elves, lets get together and show him what elves are really about!!"

Example 2:

Elf: Ugh, hin are always picking pockets and are so damn short they look like children
Hin: Who you callin short knife ears? Why don't you go hide back in your floating city since its all you elves are good at?

Easily implied racism, without ever throwing out the term.

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Re: "Racist" and Other Anachronisms

Post by Diilicious » Thu Nov 09, 2017 4:37 pm

I am honestly so glad for this finally being brought up and addressed, having my character labled racist is extremely irritating because of all the baggage that comes along with that in the IRL sphere.

I always thought that people throwing that word around ingame were polluting the environment we play in.
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Re: "Racist" and Other Anachronisms

Post by Opustus » Thu Nov 09, 2017 6:14 pm

DM GrumpyCat wrote:latest post
I get it and naturally as DMs and long-term players you have a good sense of what's good for Arelith. Thanks to you especially for discussing and explaining the matter. :)


Rieper wrote:The world in which we interact is informed by our RL opinions, morality and worldviews? It's our job as roleplayers to seperate IC and OOC. Beaming knowledge into your characters head about 21st century problems is something that should never happen intentionally.
I didn't mean to say that we should beam our century's problems into the game.* You got me right on the expression thing. I meant that Arelith is not by any means apart from real world in which we live. Naturally we have made up a new context and narrative (lore, the history of Arelith itself), but ultimately, I think, we must understand Arelith as something that has been derived from the real world and is in constant interaction with the real world through ourselves as the players who feed this information.

I think distinctions and dilutions from the real world are important for only one reason, which is the suspension of disbelief, so it is easier for us to stay immersed. Whether we find certain subject matters distasteful should not necessitate that the subject matter gets censored. (As pointed out by the DMs, is not the case here.) I don't personally think that such things as racism, sexism, and homophobia are themes that could not be discussed as such. Neither do I think that they are themes that would not recur in Arelith, as if Arelith were somehow isolated from the real world or as if by lore it would not be logically sound.

Again, just to use homosexuality as an example, I believe that homophobia is a thing that can in some manner occur in Arelith. I mean, it is possible because we as players constantly communicate our own ideas, based on the real world, into Arelith. It doesn't matter what the lore says, if I have personally, many times, interacted with characters who have been homophobic (this was on Amia). Therefore, I can say that homophobia is a thing in Amia, even if we did not use the exact word to describe it IC. What's more, homophobia as a phenomenon IS possible in Arelith, even if the lore might suggest otherwise. This, I believe and as said before, is because Arelith is informed by opinions, morality, and worldviews, in addition to lore and Arelith's own person history that make Arelith separate from the real world.


*(I personally think that if Arelith provides us a window onto understanding real world problems, we should take advantage of it and boldly address social problems through the game. I know this idea is not shared by many, and I understand that and respect the wish of others.)
Last edited by Opustus on Thu Nov 09, 2017 6:22 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: "Racist" and Other Anachronisms

Post by DM Rakshasa » Thu Nov 09, 2017 6:22 pm

This is not so much 'censorship' as stopping people from providing false equivalencies for a chance to try and silence other people's RP. People of color should not be compared to beings that have literal monster blood, or can breathe fire.

This is where the problem came from. The new policy is to stop this.
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Re: "Racist" and Other Anachronisms

Post by Opustus » Thu Nov 09, 2017 6:23 pm

DM Rakshasa wrote:This is not so much 'censorship' as stopping people from providing false equivalencies for a chance to try and silence other people's RP. People of color should not be compared to beings that have literal monster blood, or can breathe fire.

This is where the problem came from. The new policy is to stop this.
I edited my text a bit before you answered. I think the discussion (or at least the stuff I'm talking about!) has shifted quite a bit from where it started. Sorry to the OP if this wasn't your intention! I think the stance is reasonable and has been clarified multiple times.
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Re: "Racist" and Other Anachronisms

Post by Wytchee » Thu Nov 09, 2017 6:50 pm

Opustus wrote:*(I personally think that if Arelith provides us a window onto understanding real world problems, we should take advantage of it and boldly address social problems through the game. I know this idea is not shared by many, and I understand that and respect the wish of others.)
I mean, this is escapism. Themes can be incorporated but I don't want my Arelith to be some platform to address major social issues. I deal with a lot in my life in regards to that kinda stuff, and I just want to escape into another world for a few hours a day.

Plus it invariably leads to OOC animosity.
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Re: "Racist" and Other Anachronisms

Post by Opustus » Thu Nov 09, 2017 6:58 pm

I honestly respect that and I know it's important to the community, but sometimes being in the minority gets frustrating. I wouldn't want to impose my view on folks, as I understand this is contrary to what many want. Just decided to put it out there in the edit, because I thought it affects how I discuss with others here.
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Re: "Racist" and Other Anachronisms

Post by Mr_Rieper » Thu Nov 09, 2017 7:23 pm

Opustus, I'm really trying to see what you're saying here. I have to admit, it's difficult. I take a rather harsh and firm stance on a lot of things because I refuse to compromise on the quality of my RP and storytelling. At least, not intentionally. But let's see if I'm getting this right.

It seems that you're saying that Arelith is just a lens in which we express ourselves, a tool that can be used to express complex ideas and relate to them in simple ways? That since we, as players, living in the modern age, our characters have some understanding of them as well? That the only reason we filter these things is for the sake of immersion?

There's certainly something to what you're saying here. It could potentially be a powerful tool, and it's true that we will never have a COMPLETE understanding of what it's like to live in the Forgotten Realms universe. And yes, doing things for the sake of immersion is what we do.

It seems like the rest of what you are saying is that we should not shy away from distasteful issues or censor them, that we shouldn't be too quick to dismiss sensitive topics and that you have encountered things like homophobia (as an example) through your interactions with other player's characters.

I agree we shouldn't become either too callous or too sensitive. It's important to remain open minded.




However...



This is D&D. Ultimately, we will always arrive at that point. This is not Second Life, nor can the server narrative stray too far from traditional D&D, because at that point, it becomes something unrecognizable. In response to your point about our RL worldviews, moralities and values? If it doesn't exist in FR, it doesn't exist. The server must do this to protect itself against being twisted into something it is not. Sinfar is an example of a server where players have influenced the narrative on such a grand scale that it has become its own thing. Not Arelith.

That's where the separation between IC and OOC comes in. Our characters are exactly that. Characters. Not personal avatars of ourselves. Self-insert characters are barely tolerated here, and often shunned because they are boring and unimaginative. People play evil masterminds and vicious torturers here (within PG13, hopefully). How much of that is influenced by their real world viewpoints? Hopefully very little. Arelith is not a lens for sadists to be sadists, or racists to be racists, or homophobes to be homophobes. This is why the use of the last two words should be limited (NOT BANNED) because it creates a stabbing sensation of betrayal in the players. They are here to play characters that are not themselves. So should you. Don't try to shut down their characters with modern day politics. Suddenly it stops being a game and starts being two players defending their honor and RL morality.

As characters, not avatars, ALL of our characters were born and raised somewhere in the world. They learned things, experienced childhood and adolescence and somehow found themselves on Arelith. That's it. Characters should never be used as mouthpieces for their players, it makes things very uncomfortable for others, because there's no reasonable way to react to it other than dismissing them as crazy. It doesn't matter that you see homophobia. What matters is what your character sees, and whether or not they will know what targeted hatred towards gay people actually is.

Lore wise, it is absolutely necessary to respect the lore, the boundaries in which we play, because that is the reason we are here. There are many other games to roleplay in that would support more modern viewpoints. Does the lore here support them? Well, check. The priority is the lore. Don't twist it to suit your needs. Use it to teach other people about how cool this setting is. Twisting it or corrupting it to make it more suitable for YOU will alienate a lot of people. Don't do that. Never do that.

Arelith is a place for storytelling within the FR setting. Not a place for player avatars or weird self-indulgent RP. It's important that it never strays from that, because that'll be the slow death of the server. People are attracted here for the FR setting.


TL:DR - Another wall of text. I am so sorry. In short, there's merit to what you are saying Opustus, but ultimately the servers needs will always take priority over your own. Stay IC, and always check whether it is your character that believes something, or you as a player. Always avoid OOC mentalities when playing.
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Re: "Racist" and Other Anachronisms

Post by Opustus » Thu Nov 09, 2017 7:53 pm

I'm trying to say that to think that what Arelith is, like really really is, is not ONLY lore and the history of Arelith itself, but ALSO there is an underlying social fabric which it acts upon. This social fabric is us, as players, who are not born in Arelith, but in the real world. It's a pretty obvious point, in the end, but I think it needs to be understood in the context of how these two worlds (real world and Arelith) interact. Another way to describe my idea might be that Arelith is not a world without the real world, but a world within the real world. EDIT: I don't think it's fair to assert that Arelith could work apart from the real world, because it's illogical to me in light of the point I've been trying to make. And again, I understand why in order for RP and Arelith to be what they are we need to make distinctions from the real world, which is one of your points. But the distinctions we collectively decide to make are arguable, not essential and not explained solely by lore.
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Re: "Racist" and Other Anachronisms

Post by Mr_Rieper » Thu Nov 09, 2017 7:58 pm

Opustus wrote:I'm trying to say that to think that what Arelith is, like really really is, is not ONLY lore and the history of Arelith itself, but ALSO there is an underlying social fabric which it acts upon. This social fabric is us, as players, who are not born in Arelith, but in the real world. It's a pretty obvious point, in the end, but I think it needs to be understood in the context of how these two worlds (real world and Arelith) interact. Another way to describe my idea might be that Arelith is not a world without the real world, but a world within the real world.
To a certain extent, you are right. But that is something to guard against, not embrace.

Because it's more than just a world within the real world. It's a fictional fantasy world SET IN FORGOTTEN REALMS with its own rules and themes, within the real world.

The fantasy bit is important. This is what we are trying to establish here. Real world and fantasy can mix, but fantasy will ALWAYS take priority. It has to be that way for the server's continued survival.

We play here for Forgotten Realms. Not for anything else. If that's not at least part of the reason why you're here, you're in the wrong place.

It's the same thing as somebody roleplaying as a Jedi on the server, or using Star Wars terms in character constantly. The admin team would also try to curb that behaviour, because it interferes with the setting and makes players uncomfortable. Same thing.
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Re: "Racist" and Other Anachronisms

Post by Opustus » Thu Nov 09, 2017 8:05 pm

I would like for us not to make too radical distinctions from the real world, as I would like for people to be more able and allowed to discuss subject matters like racism, sexism, and homophobia through their RP (and as I showed before, because these motives can also occur in Arelith, because Arelith cannot be -without- the real world). I don't think exaggerated examples do justice to the point I'm arguing for; I agree that blatant violations of immersion should be kept to a minimum (like characters talking about stuff that cannot exist in Arelith, like Trump or nation states etc.).

What we play or don't play for is more personal than "we play for FR", if I understood you on that. I certainly play for a lot of things totally unrelated to FR, while I agree it's an important factor of what makes the concept of Arelith possible.
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Re: "Racist" and Other Anachronisms

Post by Mr_Rieper » Thu Nov 09, 2017 8:10 pm

You're free to be creative, and if you want to draw comparisons, metaphors or allegories to racism, sexism or homophobia on the server WITHIN THE CONTEXT OF FORGOTTEN REALMS, then you're totally cool. It'll probably encouraged. As long as it isn't an overt attempt to inject modern ideology into a fantasy setting. Tolkien's works were about hope, goodness, the courage of the underdog and the power of innocence and humility, as well as the loss of innocence. He did it in a clever and interpretative way. But it's still enjoyable as a tale of adventure, action, romance and triumph.

As the DMs and Admins said, they don't mind the words "racist" or "racism" being used. As long as it isn't abused.

We enjoy the game for many different reasons. But all of us have an appreciation for Forgotten Realms, and D&D as a whole. The appeal of online D&D draws people in. These are the people that the server caters to. Just as a Star Wars RP server would appeal to their own crowd, who enjoy Star Wars and want to roleplay as a Star Wars character.

That being said, I feel like this discussion was good. Certainly opened my eyes to some things as well.
Last edited by Mr_Rieper on Thu Nov 09, 2017 8:15 pm, edited 1 time in total.
CosmicOrderV wrote:
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Be the change you want to see, and shape the server because of it. Players can absolutely help keep their fellow players accountable.

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Re: "Racist" and Other Anachronisms

Post by Opustus » Thu Nov 09, 2017 8:15 pm

Same to you, Rieper! :) I also think creativity frees us to do a whole lot in exciting and fruitful ways! And I also agree that FR is absolutely crucial to what unifies Arelith and us players.
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Re: "Racist" and Other Anachronisms

Post by Beneidalus » Thu Nov 09, 2017 11:32 pm

Much respect to Irongron for that stance.

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Re: "Racist" and Other Anachronisms

Post by The GrumpyCat » Thu Nov 09, 2017 11:34 pm

Just want to add that as a moderator here to say it's really nice to see a subject like this discussed in a civil polite manner, with all parties showing respect. Kudos!
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