"Racist" and Other Anachronisms

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Wytchee
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"Racist" and Other Anachronisms

Post by Wytchee » Tue Nov 07, 2017 7:12 pm

Can we all agree that the use of modern sociopolitical terms laden with real-life connotations are way too topical for a faux-medieval setting? I'd really like Irongron's dictate to be applied to more than just the terms racist/racism. I swear I have heard someone say/write the words "anarchist" or "fascist" in character. It's super jarring and not only breaks immersion but brings IRL conflict into the game.

My character Mae, by any modern account, could be labeled an anarchist/communist. I would never, however, use those terms IC to describe her or her motivations and goals. They're 19th/early 20th Century anachronisms. I know it's quite a lot to ask but please extend this attitude to other terms as well.

This is pure escapism for a lot of people -- a lot of people who have very real and potent anxieties regarding the current political climate of the world. Let's make a collective effort to try to eliminate references to modern politics in game to make it more fun for everyone.
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Re: "Racist" and Other Anachronisms

Post by Seven Sons of Sin » Tue Nov 07, 2017 7:20 pm

While I agree, anarchism and fascism are differently historically (and appear at different times). Fascism definitely lends itself to being 20th century, and I don't really know how you'd apply it in Arelith. Same with communism.

Anarchism appeared in the Renaissance. It's kosher, in my opinion.
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Re: "Racist" and Other Anachronisms

Post by Wytchee » Tue Nov 07, 2017 7:24 pm

Seven Sons of Sin wrote:While I agree, anarchism and fascism are differently historically (and appear at different times). Fascism definitely lends itself to being 20th century, and I don't really know how you'd apply it in Arelith. Same with communism.

Anarchism appeared in the Renaissance. It's kosher, in my opinion.
Anarchism has its roots in ancient Greece, actually. Fascism isn't linked to any particular time period (depending on the context it's used), but has obvious 20th Century connotations.

That's totally irrelevant to my request, though, as despite their historical contexts they are topical terms that are relevant to modern politics and I'd like to not see them in game.

We can argue over this anachronism or that, whether or not whisky or vodka or rapiers existed in whatever chronological parallel we're discussing, or the fact that voting for chancellor is just as anachronistic as the aforementioned terms, but let's not do that.

EDIT: this thread has the potential to get quite toxic so I'll request in advance it be locked if it devolves into any actual political argument. So let's try to stay on topic if we can. xD
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Re: "Racist" and Other Anachronisms

Post by The GrumpyCat » Tue Nov 07, 2017 7:39 pm

The issue with the word 'Racist' is nothing much to do with it being an anachronism and more to do with the innate cultural implications of it that effect people ooc to such an extent they refuse to play their character concepts. Also - because it's imprecise.

Honestly I find 'anachism' a less loaded word than 'Fachism/Fachist' but whilst I have seen anachist/anachism. used a few times IG, I've never seen faschism/fascist used (and I just did a log check to make sure, no evidence of it in the last three months.)

It is a point about regularity. A certain degree of inter-species conflict (even amongst the 'goodly species') is centeral to the narritive of FR. The issues of anarchism/fachism isn't - I mean I'm not saying it doesn't happen or can't happen, but it's not as likely to happen in the average character concept, and thus is less of a danger over all.

If we do see people regularly describing Paladins as 'Fachists' this will likely change though.
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Re: "Racist" and Other Anachronisms

Post by Wytchee » Tue Nov 07, 2017 7:42 pm

DM GrumpyCat wrote:If we do see people regularly describing Paladins as 'Fachists' this will likely change though.
That's all I'm really asking. 8-)
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Re: "Racist" and Other Anachronisms

Post by Karris the Anarchist » Tue Nov 07, 2017 7:49 pm

Also, technically, by a bit of a long shot, Arelith is placed in the Forgotten Realms, Forgotten Realms is a Prime Material World in the Dungeons and Dungeons Multiverse - within the setting 'Planescape' contained herein, there is a faction called the 'Revolutionary League', or more commonly, the 'Anarchists'.

Bit of a stretch, of course, but we've already got plane-travelling as part of Arelith, so by effect, bringing down the established order and oppose authoritarian mindsets is certainly a feasible way of thought, with a very lore-based background!

Still. Moderation is key, no one likes too many RL connections IG.
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Re: "Racist" and Other Anachronisms

Post by Opustus » Tue Nov 07, 2017 8:19 pm

I think the modern day words make a lot of sense in how we wish to portray our characters as they are tied to our understanding of the world. I mean, the gap between "the real world" and "the fantasy world" is always bridged by our language and moral ideas. I've always favored seeing the FR world as fantasy influenced by history and mythology, but as a world distinct from it. If I had my way, anachronism would not be a thing in FR because FR is a wholly different world from ours and thus the existence of words and ideas like racism, anarchy, and communism could be possible.

But okay, the DM gavel has struck and so we have a new stance (rule???). I think it is fairly obvious that the world "racism" and "anarchy" make a lot of sense. Inter-racial supremacists such as drow, many sun elves and dwarves could very reflexively be called "racist". A person who is anti-establishment could likewise be called an "anarchist". These are connections we readily make, it's built-in in our everyday thinking, we organize our world with these words. If we are to cease using them, what are the alternatives? Do we call racists xenophobes and anarchists rebels? I don't mind that, but when DMs make their "stances" they could give us some examples of what to do instead. I'm sure the ideas encompassed by words like racism and anarchism are something we can't altogether bypass within the FR world.
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Re: "Racist" and Other Anachronisms

Post by Mr_Rieper » Tue Nov 07, 2017 8:29 pm

Why bother with the concept of racism?

If somebody believes they are superior, prove them wrong. Or call 'em rude. Or some other pejorative that indicates they have a lack of respect for others.

I'm fairly sure that hatred and contempt between the difference races/species in Forgotten Realms must be so incredibly common that they haven't come up with a specific word for it. All dwarves are stubborn and dirty. All elves are haughty and unreliable. All humans are ignorant and stupid.

All Cordorians are over-opinionated and selfish. All Cragsmen are boorish and aloof.

All drow want to stab you in the back, throat or heart.

In a world filled with magic, gods and otherworldy creatures that want to eat your literal soul, I think making a few stereotypes would actually be healthy for your continued survival and prosperity.

You wouldn't use the word "stereotype" IC, so why would you use the word "racist"?
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Re: "Racist" and Other Anachronisms

Post by Opustus » Tue Nov 07, 2017 8:42 pm

But the point is: I would definitely use the word stereotype in a RPG, it feels natural to me and not anachronistic. I've played a multitude of characters who have defied stereotypes and I've marked this quality with sentences such as "I don't fit the stereotype." I've also called drow "racist bastards" and such IG, because they tend to believe they are the superior race--this, I've thought, has been very fitting.

What you described seems like examples of racism and stereotyping in FR. So, the idea of this exists, but how should our characters denote it and what words could be used instead? How can we say that something is racist if this is what our character wants to communicate?
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Re: "Racist" and Other Anachronisms

Post by The GrumpyCat » Tue Nov 07, 2017 8:44 pm

I don't think we'll be coming down like a tonne of bricks on anyone who very occasionaly uses the word 'racist'. Remembering to use the right language can be a stretch at times, and this game is for fun.

It's more if it's part of your characters narrative. IF you use it a lot, especialy in brauder contexts, then it's more of an issue.

If you want other words try:

Predjudiced
Narrow Minded.
A (xxx) hater (insert species here)
Bigot
Zealot
Cruel
Small minded
Discriminationary
Zenophobic
Biased
Evil
Hateful
Unloving

More as I come up with them.


Also another aspect, which Mr_Rieper touches on above - is that the bigger issue is that the word 'racism' is used when something is said that really is not racist.

Consider these two sentences.

Women can't understand science.
Women have breasts.

Which one of these is sexist?

The first, obviously. The second is a statement of general fact(1)

Now consider these statements.

Elves are bad.
Drow are bad.

Which of these is 'racist?'

Well ironicaly, in the way most people in our society view it, the first one is racist. The second one is a statement of fact. Most elves are not massivly malignant, it's possible for pcs to consider them such, but it would be a little unusual.

But most Drow ARE massivly malignant, and most pcs should know this. Thus calling someone who hates drow 'racist' is... fairly nonsensicle.

The problem being is that people are using the term 'racist' not just for say, a human hating elf character, but also an elf hating a drow. So really it's better just to ask people to please avoid using that term as much as possible.

(1) Ok so there are exceptions, not all women have breasts ect... but it still works as a rough cover all statement for the purposes of this post.
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Re: "Racist" and Other Anachronisms

Post by Gnarh » Tue Nov 07, 2017 8:53 pm

It may be worth considering Rule #1 here: Role Play, and the requirement to stay in character - and staying in character goes hand-in-hand with staying in the setting.

Casual murder, theft, slavery, torture, human sacrifice, piracy, and so much more - these are all things that are part of Arelith's setting that one would hope players wouldn't translate into their daily lives.

Consequently real world political and social movements shouldn't played out by characters on the server - and although I've taken time and hesitated before choosing to use the following language - as per Rule #1 it's the responsibility of players to keep ourselves in character and within the setting.

I think it's also worth making sure that this rule has been explained that it's not just the words "racist" and "racism" that are the problem here - but rather the connection to the real world connotations and baggage that these words have. So it's not a case of just finding another word and continuing with your RP as it's been. It's a ruling against players bringing real life issues into to server.

This feels, at least to me, as if it isn't an issue about semantics. It doesn't matter what word you use. It's about player behaviour that has been deemed to be detrimental to the server by the Dev Team.

- DM's or Dev Team, please correct me if my interpretation is wrong! -

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Re: "Racist" and Other Anachronisms

Post by Mr_Rieper » Tue Nov 07, 2017 9:05 pm

Opustus wrote:But the point is: I would definitely use the word stereotype in a RPG, it feels natural to me and not anachronistic. I've played a multitude of characters who have defied stereotypes and I've marked this quality with sentences such as "I don't fit the stereotype." I've also called drow "racist bastards" and such IG, because they tend to believe they are the superior race--this, I've thought, has been very fitting.

What you described seems like examples of racism and stereotyping in FR. So, the idea of this exists, but how should our characters denote it and what words could be used instead? How can we say that something is racist if this is what our character wants to communicate?
Well, if we think about it at the most basic level... It's basically just disrespect, isn't it? In a world with so many races and species, it must so common it doesn't even deserve a word to describe it. It's just the other character being disrespectful. So if you want to call them some variation of Snuggybear, they will almost always deserve it.

Just as with the insult threads, have your character compare them to something they would find disgusting. In RL, most people find racists and racism disgusting. In-game, do it differently.

RL - Racist = disgusting

IC - Disrespectful - disgusting

You can find some pretty strong ways to word things without resorting to the R word. I mean, whether they are insulting your race or your mother, your reply will pretty much be the same. Calling them a racist just sounds like both a weak plea for respect and a weak condemnation of their behaviour. You can get waaaay more specific.

If your character or your race was not something to be trifled with, then show them. Don't plead with them to show respect. Force it. Even good characters can demonstrate the amount of influence they have against the people that cross them. They just called your gang weak, don't call them a gangcist, just call in a few favours and show them where disrespect gets them.
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Re: "Racist" and Other Anachronisms

Post by Irongron » Tue Nov 07, 2017 9:41 pm

I think the announcement was pretty clear, but I'll give a little more background here, and what led me to this decision.

This isn't just about the term being anachronistic, but also deeply offensive. Being called a racist is something very serious, and in our world is understood as discriminating against people based upon a false assumption that someone is genetically inferior/inclined to a certain behaviour based upon their heritage. The thing is, in FR this isn't a 'false assumption', goblins are generally evil, tiefling really do have 'devil-blood', as the announcement states racial conflict is part of the FR, and more broadly,the fantasy setting.

This is a genuinely serious slur to use against someone, and simply does not translate into this setting, unless immediately clarified with the caveat that this does not refer to the commonly understood meaning of the term. Calling another character or group 'racist' is therefore akin to saying 'paladins are all sex-pests, or character x is a homophobe.' It is a needlessly inflamatory term.

As a new player if someone said 'Hey, I don't talk to Clem Fandango and his crew because they're all known racists.' I'd be seriously concerned about just what kind of game I'd stumbled into, and just what was tolerated here. If you play a tiefling and someone doesn't trust you as a result, or suspects you're indulging in human sacrifice, they're not being 'racist' but being entirely logical in terms of the setting.

Back in the day I saw this happen all the time with the good aligned kobolds and goblins that once dwelled in Cordor, and it was just horrible to witness.

Recently, while monitoring certain reports and character chatter I saw this was being used way too much, and while as Grumpycat said we're unlikely to throw the book at someone implying this, I also want to nip this habit in the bud before it goes any further.

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Re: "Racist" and Other Anachronisms

Post by Cerk Evermoore » Tue Nov 07, 2017 10:28 pm

Am I the only one that thinks ICly calling a paladin a "fascist" is hilarious?

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Re: "Racist" and Other Anachronisms

Post by Wytchee » Tue Nov 07, 2017 11:24 pm

Cerk Evermoore wrote:Am I the only one that thinks ICly calling a paladin a "fascist" is hilarious?
I think it's funny, to be honest. I just find it immersion-breaking.
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Re: "Racist" and Other Anachronisms

Post by Seven Sons of Sin » Tue Nov 07, 2017 11:57 pm

Just curious, Irongron-

Were more character using the word "racist" and alike words, to describe characters who were being (appropriately) hostile/prejudicial against monster races, etc.?

Or in different contexts? (To be honest, I can't think of any.)

Also, I don't think we should shy away from the themes of modern-day (environmentalism, terrorism, political norms, social commentary, etc.) because that's how you can create some meaningful and telling roleplay. But I certainly think direct analogues and explicit terminology comes off as obtuse, and blunt, where really you want to be clever and ambiguous on these issues.
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Re: "Racist" and Other Anachronisms

Post by Sab1 » Wed Nov 08, 2017 12:03 am

Isn't a human who hates all elves being racist? Wouldn't the group going about saying humans are superior and anyone without human blood is inferior, be a racist group?

My character views someone like Rhaeg as trying to spread anarchy in Cordor, so wouldn't he view him as an anarchist?

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Re: "Racist" and Other Anachronisms

Post by Dr_Hazard89 » Wed Nov 08, 2017 12:07 am

I'm glad for the announcement and also agree with the OP.
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Re: "Racist" and Other Anachronisms

Post by Wytchee » Wed Nov 08, 2017 12:08 am

Sab1 wrote:Isn't a human who hates all elves being racist? Wouldn't the group going about saying humans are superior be a racist group?

My character views someone like Rhaeg as trying to spread anarchy in Cordor, so wouldn't he view him as an anarchist?
Rhaeg is an anarchist in the political and philosophical sense; but calling him anarchist in character, given the faux-medieval fantasy setting, is weird, and jarring, and non-creative. Call him an enemy of the kingdom, or a lawless brute, or whatever. Calling him an anarchist not only brings up real-world anxieties, it puts him into a box and serves to lessen him as a character (and he is an awesome, complex character who is more than his politics).

(Also I feel the need to point out there is a difference between anarchism, which is the opposition to illegitimate hierarchies, and "anarchy" as it's casually used, meaning chaos or lawlessness.)

Be creative, and try not to use terms and labels with specific IRL meanings have modern/topical political connotations, because a lot of people (myself included) play this game to get away from the clustersnuggle that is politics.

Also, poor Rhaeg. Possibly the most misunderstood PC on the server. :lol:
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Re: "Racist" and Other Anachronisms

Post by BegoneThoth » Wed Nov 08, 2017 12:17 am

Wytchee wrote: Rhaeg is an anarchist in the political and philosophical sense; but calling him anarchist in character, given the faux-medieval fantasy setting, is weird, and jarring, and non-creative.
First use of the word is 1539, well before the lithographs we seem to have on the server.

Seems to be fitting, the word Anarchist at least.
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Re: "Racist" and Other Anachronisms

Post by MoreThanThree » Wed Nov 08, 2017 12:18 am

Sab1 wrote:My character views someone like Rhaeg as trying to spread anarchy in Cordor, so wouldn't he view him as an anarchist?
He's just a dirty orc, why give him any title at all?
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Re: "Racist" and Other Anachronisms

Post by Wytchee » Wed Nov 08, 2017 12:21 am

BegoneThoth wrote:First use of the word is 1539, well before the lithographs we seem to have on the server.

Seems to be fitting, the word Anarchist at least.
Again, that's beyond the point. While I did say that these terms are anachronistic, my primary concern is their relevance to modern politics. I'd just like to avoid them for that reason.

There's myriad anachronisms in the FR setting, so that's not an argument I'd like to make. :lol:
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Re: "Racist" and Other Anachronisms

Post by MoreThanThree » Wed Nov 08, 2017 1:22 am

Don't have to worry about anarchists if you kill them all.
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Re: "Racist" and Other Anachronisms

Post by Wytchee » Wed Nov 08, 2017 1:23 am

MoreThanThree wrote:Don't have to worry about anarchists if you kill them all.
Thanks for contributing.
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Re: "Racist" and Other Anachronisms

Post by Baron Saturday » Wed Nov 08, 2017 1:43 am

The word anarchy is pretty entrenched in the FR setting. The Nelather/Pirate isle, for instance, are described as an "Armed Anarchy," and there's even aweapon propertt called "Anarchic."

I get where you're coming from, Wytchee, I just don't agree.
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